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Archive 1Archive 2

Survivors and tense

re: was/is

Isn't there still one survivor (Filching Manor), with talk of possible use in a K4 replica? Would that be sufficient to change the tense?

Also, what happened to the New Zealand engines from Thunderbolt? Presumably the two London display engines were the spares for Thunderbolt, and not the engines in it when on display in New Zealand and the fire. There are reports that they survived the fire sufficiently to warrant saving the wreckage (possibly in Auckland University's engineering department?), if not well enough to go on display. Andy Dingley (talk) 15:39, 1 December 2009 (UTC)

To clarify a 'survivor' (definition discussed at length at WT:AETF) is an operating engine, anything else is an 'engine on display.' From the little information available on the Filching K4 project it is my understanding that it was only ever intended as a static display exhibit. Photographs (that can not be used here) show that the engine was loose and not fitted fairly recently. Short of going there myself we don't know the true status of the project, even if I did that would be original research and any information could not be used. The future of the Filching collection is also not clear after the relatively recent death of the owner. If R39 is in the condition from 1951 then it will most likely be seized internally through corrosion and will cost a considerable sum to restore to running condition. I have searched for the NZ engines and even asked an NZ wikipedian if he could help, the lead was our own Thunderbolt article which I believe mentions 'remains' of the engines at MOTAT, Auckland, noting that this information is uncited. Their website does not mention them to my knowledge. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 16:05, 1 December 2009 (UTC)
Unfortunately MOTAT seem to be unable/unwilling to answer my inquiries (via email and direct dialing) about the collection's R-R R engines. This leads me to believe that they either don't have them or they are tucked away and forgotten. Minorhistorian (talk) 20:12, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Thanks for trying, I guess that they were not the most exciting exhibits in the universe and as you say they have probably consigned them to a very dark room somewhere. The London Science Museum has more aircraft and engines, last known stored at The Science Museum at Wroughton, sadly rarely open to the public. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 20:39, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
I did have the idea of sneaking in after dark armed with a powerful torch and some tools - I still haven't worked out how to carry a complete R in my rucksack, which is far too small. Minorhistorian (talk) 22:38, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Tense again: I see somebody changed it and was reverted, so why must the engine be referred to in the lead in the past tense as if it no longer exists? The image alongside makes it clear that at least one still does, and whether there are flying examples or not makes no difference to the nature or purpose of the object... it's still an engine, even now. Miremare 01:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

A fair point that I would like to answer. It became apparent about a year ago that there was much confusion about exactly which tense to use in the engine articles. There was a long friendly discussion where I initially suggested that if an engine is in a museum then it exists and should be present tense (I changed my mind later). For the sake of standardisation across aero engine articles we drew up consensus grammatical tense guidelines at WP:AETF/PC where the guideline is working well to my knowledge. The other side of the coin of course is the opposite situation where we see 'is' used for extinct objects, still seen in many aircraft articles and clearly not correct. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 07:48, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
Well, I can't say I agree with the outcome, but at least there's a guideline reason there. I've noticed a couple of Wikiprojects with specific tense guidelines (WP:VG/GL springs to mind) though this is the first one I've seen to suggest the past tense for an extant subject. Ideally it would be nice to have something in the MOS to apply to all articles... Anyway, thanks for the reply. Miremare 15:05, 27 December 2009 (UTC)
I agree it does seem strange to use the past tense when referring to an extanct subject, but in this instance we're talking about engines with no known working examples. By being incapable of running they are not complete in every sense of the word, hence not considered to be a current or existing engine type if you understand my meaning. --Red Sunset 15:54, 27 December 2009 (UTC)

Manufacturer's name "High Speed Alloys"

Some questions: aren't red links supposed to be avoided in a featured article? A criteria of Featured Articles is no edit wars; please don't start with such a small issue.

was this the name of the manufacturer in 1931? A quick google says yes High Duty Alloys history

Okay, why not create a page for this? There are links to other manufacturers in the text eg Lodge spark plugs, so it seems reasonable to mention High Speed Alloys even if it is in a note, rather than being part of the main text. Just some thoughts...Minorhistorian (talk) 23:08, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

RR.50 alloy

(Edit conflict) Red links are fine as long as they are added the right way.

Seeing a bout of confusion over this I decided to have a look into it. This 1932 Flight scan explains that RR.50 was an alloy developed by Rolls-Royce and (or but?) was produced by High Duty Alloys Limited. What is not clear from all the references used in this article is whether High Duty Alloys Ltd produced the castings because the company was not mentioned in any of them. The problem with the red link as it was is that it was piped to a potential company article and not the alloy itself, this is the same as linking to K5054, the reader expects an article on the prototype Spitfire but is sadly disappointed. The way forward is to:

  • Find a source that says that HDA produced the castings for the R and cite it.
  • At this stage the redlink can be added.
  • Create an article on HDA, they seem to be notable enough.
  • Red link is filled automatically on creation.

I initially created a red link for Wellworthy for the pistons mentioned, I researched long and hard but could not come up with much information on the company past adverts in Flight so I unlinked it as it appeared practically impossible to fill the link. If I remember I will research the HDA company and see if there is enough for an article, possibly with sections on the individual alloy specs. Can't do much more than that I'm afraid. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:19, 6 January 2010 (UTC)

Check Lundomys for red links. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:23, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I have found a direct source: Flight archives search for HDA from 1932 (heading "Hinduminium R.R Alloys") Hope this helps. Minorhistorian (talk) 23:37, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
(Edit conflict) Same link as I posted earlier.
It is worth looking into because Hiduminium is a red link and that is a well known material to British aircraft engineers, trying to connect scant information together from almost 80 years ago is not the easiest task, I have a user asking on my talk page for images of 100 year old aircraft to prove that a particular engine was fitted to a particular aircraft type as proof for a cited application list, it is fair to say that my enthusiasm to continue with aero engine articles at this stage is wearing thin. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 23:45, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
I agree with Nimbus - that is the way this should be linked! Good find to you both on locating the same article! - Ahunt (talk) 23:50, 6 January 2010 (UTC)
Great minds think alike etc...the article is in Flight No. 1204, Vol XXIV No.4. My reading is that while R-R developed the recipe (?) HDA actually smelted the alloy and produced the ingots which R-R then cast; I guess because the Rs were made in small numbers R-R could do the bulk of the casting themselves without having to rely on contracting out. Interestingly my search turned up advertisments which said that Bristol were also using RR.50 alloys, manufactured by HDA, in their engines. Minorhistorian (talk) 00:14, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
These alloys are common, I believe that the con rods in my Bonneville are forged from an RR alloy. It is a foggy mess that needs unravelling and I will try. No edit war here BTW, just some confusion as to how Wikipedia works and a good faith addition by an IP with few edits who also, quite rightly, added the redlink to a Slough article, which is where the company was based. All that is needed is to calmly and methodically add to the encyclopedia. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:32, 7 January 2010 (UTC)


I was just about to create such an article (barring a million other things). I'd suggest R.R. alloys and categorizing it primarily under metal alloys, as that's how they're named, R-R invented them and HDA "subsequently developed" them.(FJ Camm (January 1944). Dictionary of Metals and Alloys (3rd ed. ed.). {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help))
Andy Dingley (talk) 00:34, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Carry on then but please understand red link convention, I look forward to reading your article in due course. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:47, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

GET OFF MY BACK 8-(

So far tonight I've been accused of

  • not understanding red link conventions (when another editor seemingly removes them on sight, without even doing the slightest research)
  • edit warring (what?)
  • being the editor adding the link in the first place

Now I appear to be in some sort of speed-typing contest. If you want to write the damned thing so much, then do so. I've got to get these references formatted first, because I just know who's going to be along in a moment to remove them.

Must remember - aircraft articles are too much like scientology - leave it to the clique. Andy Dingley (talk) 01:17, 7 January 2010 (UTC)

Go steady with your accusations, please read back through what was actually said above. If my filling of red links in your new article offended you then I apologise. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 01:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
My accusations? I'm not the one touring user_talk: pages to accuse edit wars. Nor do I think it's reasonable to edit an {{inuse}} template while another editor's in the middle of working on it (Isn't that rather the point of using the template). This isn't about the WP:OWN you now seem to be accusing me of, it's just about avoiding edit conflicts. Andy Dingley (talk) 17:21, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
Can I just ask you all to calm down, I think everybody is trying to improve the article and we now have an article on Hiduminium to link to thanks to Andy, so can I suggest the combined knowledge of the editors in helping each other is more constructive way forward. Also note that after some recent work this article is now an FA so naturally some editors will seem protective of that article status, just need to discuss things clearly on this page, any improvements have to be good. Thank you MilborneOne (talk) 18:26, 7 January 2010 (UTC)
High Duty Alloys in Slough were a Rolls-Royce subsidiary company - that's why the alloy numbers all started with 'R.R.'.
BTW, Wellworthy were based in Lymington Hants - there are some Flight adverts for "Wellworthy" pistons and piston rings here: [1] (1944)[2] (1944) - here: [3] and here: [4] (1946) - Wellworthy were very well known in the performance engine field until quite late, IIRC,as late as the 1970s. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.76.45 (talk) 10:50, 25 February 2011 (UTC)

Final Schneider Trophy race

The absence of any other competitors in the 1931 race was due to Italy not being ready in time, and the other countries not having any engines over 500-600hp, as IIRC, the country entering had to produce both the engine and airframe. Most of the others didn't have a 1,000hp engine available, never mind a 2,000hp+ one like the R. Not bad for 1929-31. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.40.254.26 (talk) 17:45, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Which happily does not contradict the article text? Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:34, 12 January 2010 (UTC)
I added the above so as to explain the absence of the other competitors. There was no other reason for their not competing other than the lack of suitable engines. With the R, Rolls-Royce effectively leap-frogged the other engine manufacturers and 'trumped' them, making the other countries entering the competition a lost cause. They didn't enter the competition that year because they knew that against an R-powered entry with over 2,000hp, they'd lose. In some references you'll find the suggestion that there were other reasons why these countries didn't enter the competition, however the real reason is what I've just explained above. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.112.65.146 (talk) 20:00, 17 March 2010 (UTC)
I returned the Eves 'Schneider Trophy' book to the library last November but I remember that there were multiple reasons why the other teams did not compete, it was not mentioned that they did not turn up because they thought that they were going to be beaten. The Eves book seems to be a very accurate portrayal of all the races. A better place for this information would be the Schneider Trophy article (which does need a lot of work). If you have a reliable source for this viewpoint then please add it. Bear in mind that this talk page is not a forum for discussing the engine's merits, we tried very hard not to 'blow its trumpet' during improvement of the article and possibly overdid it in the interest of neutrality, the raw numbers speak for themselves. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 00:24, 18 March 2010 (UTC)

error in displacement of the engine

Wikipedia gives the following for piston engine [displacement]


displacement = π bore²/4*stroke regarding the [R engine specifications], that gives 40,35 L of displacement

Off course all the efficiency figures are change (and far less impressive) Who is right ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Le zaps (talk • contribs) 18:00, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Checked the math myself, and came up with 2,669 cubic inches (π*((bore/2)^2)*stroke), wikipedias "convert" template says 36.69 liters. WuhWuzDat 18:12, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
I have restored the metric figure to the cited version (using the template changed it by 0.01 L). Please see WP:OR,WP:VERIFY and Wikipedia:WikiProject Aircraft/Engines/page content#Engine specifications. Nimbus (Cumulus nimbus floats by) 19:50, 20 November 2010 (UTC)
The usual formulae for calculating displacement give 2239.325 (36,696cc) for the 6 x 6.6 cylinders. But, the article also mentions that the articulated rods give a different stroke on one side compared to the other. Other engines like this list 2 separate strokes. 2001:56A:F414:D300:CCD1:4D72:483E:C1BC (talk) 07:01, 12 February 2018 (UTC)
I don't know how many articles you've been making these over-precise claims at, because we've had a few anon IP editors doing it lately.
DO NOT "calculate" THE DISPLACEMENT AND REPLACE A SOURCED FIGURE.
It is pointless over-precision to do this.
The bore and stroke figures may not be as precise as their simple round number values suggest. As you note here, master-slave rod combinations will vary the stroke on the slave bank(s). Also engines with a '6" bore' are not always machined to a 6.000 inch bore, as you assume here. This is very common. Even an oversize rebore after a rebuild can be enough to break your super-precise calculation. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:22, 12 February 2018 (UTC)

Reliability of Eves as a data source

I have strong doubts regarding the reliability of Eves "The Schneider Trophy Story". Several of his comments regarding which engines were installed in which aircraft for the 1929 and 1931 Schneider Trophy contest and speed record runs contradicts the information in Air Ministry report T3209 (compiled by Sqn Ldr Orlebar in 1932). I would recommend changing the entry to fit these data but do not wish to do so until I get feedback. It is most unfortunate that Eve's book was published posthumously, while it is full of interesting stories it is also riddled with errors throughout and suffers from minimal editing. Regards RWP — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.218.245 (talk) 17:33, 3 November 2011 (UTC) I should add that the Air Ministry report I refer to is available in the National Archve at Kew and hence a verifiable reference — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.17.218.245 (talk) 18:10, 3 November 2011 (UTC)

Ball hone

My grandfather invented the hone for the engine. Ajrobb (talk) 11:27, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

Interesting, for ball hones or cylinder liners, even if not for this engine. Can you cite this? WP is a bit edgy otherwise. Do you have any further details, such as your grandfather's name, the date or even his R-R personal code? (makes R-R archives much easier to search). Was this in Derby, or was he an outside contractor? Andy Dingley (talk) 12:31, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

I have expressive dyspepsia caused by terminal grade 4 glioblastoma mutiforme brain cancer. I never met my grandfather who was a Rolls-Royce engineer. I do had a "The Production Engineer" Vol 44 - No. 9 - September 1965 "In Memoriam" (page 464) "E. D. Ball, BSc, MIProdE" a founder member of "The Institution of Production Engineers" and "Honorary Secretary" at 12-April-1924 to 20-May-1929. (When he went to Zurich, Switzerland.)

His 3rd child was born in Epsom, Surrey in 1930 just after coming back from Switzerland (tried anything to make money - blue prints made on the lawn and fixed in the bath). His 4th child was born in Wallington, Surrey in 1934. In between my mother fell from a tree breaking her leg badly in 1933/4 (I think she said she was 9) and that when he lived around Birmingham. He left Rolls-Royce to found "Alexander-Ball hones and gauges" in London (living in Wallington next to Croydon Aerodrome for business trips):

"The hones were widely adopted in auto-mobile and aircraft industries and, during the critical shortage of aircraft in the Second World War, achieved a reduction in time for Spitfire engine cylinders from one and three quarters hours to three minutes"

My late mother (his daughter 1924-2010) put the reduction for "Rolls-Royce R" during the air races. The engine couldn't survive a long hone time. As he was in Switzerland in 1929, he could not have been working on 1929 race.

He worked in Switzerland in 1929 for a America firm for a year before the "crash". He had very many German friends and once received a letter "Mr Ball, Europe" (unfortunately lost). During the war, he was kept at the Air Ministry after describing a German factory and was not allowed to leave until the RAF had flatten it. He knew that his friends would be killed. I think that was part of his drink problem. He and my Granny separated when she nearly died in 1939/40 from the stress (6 months in hospital). He went to live with is his sister.

He was in charge(?) in Royce-Rolls Crewe or Derby Merlin production during WW2. He would get drunk when he came home (to his sister) and would be recalled to come in again: "I'd prefer Mr Ball drunk rather anyone else sober". Ajrobb (talk) 17:39, 12 October 2012 (UTC)

Edgar Dale Ball

born 28-Jul-1896 in Tamworth, Warwickshire

died 7-May-1965 (living with his sister in Derbyshire).

Son of Primitive Methodist Minster (Edgar Ball) and grandson of two Primitive Methodist Minsters (Enoch Ball and George Johnstone Cooke). Died from drink.

http://trees.ancestry.co.uk/tree/12655366/person/-210192923 Ajrobb (talk) 16:55, 14 October 2012 (UTC)

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