Talk:Rocío Jurado

References

I have added English references. I have not done anything with the Spanish links because I don't speak Spanish. If someone who does speak Spanish could have a look at them, I would be most grateful. Capitalistroadster 18:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Stubs

I have removed the stub notices from the article. Capitalistroadster 18:37, 1 June 2006 (UTC)

Year of birth

I have altered the year of birth from 1940 to 1944. Whilst some English language sources (such as imdb) are quoting 1940, this is incorrect: Jurado was born in 1944.

edit: ok, checked and previous editor was right after all, ignore info. above - --JoeDiaz--

Photos

There used to be a photo of Jurado - can't someone get at least one that falls within public domain? --Mylitta 07:32, 18 June 2006 (UTC)

The joys of automatic translation

Hardly reads like English at all in some places! Article needs editing by a native English speaker who also knows Spanish. Eg it sometimes even translates her name to Dew! Dhyandeva (talk) 14:59, 1 November 2012 (UTC)

3RR

Your recent editing history shows that you are currently engaged in an edit war. Being involved in an edit war can result in your being blocked from editing—especially if you violate the three-revert rule, which states that an editor must not perform more than three reverts on a single page within a 24-hour period. Undoing another editor's work—whether in whole or in part, whether involving the same or different material each time—counts as a revert. Also keep in mind that while violating the three-revert rule often leads to a block, you can still be blocked for edit warring—even if you don't violate the three-revert rule—should your behavior indicate that you intend to continue reverting repeatedly.

To avoid being blocked, instead of reverting please consider using the article's talk page to work toward making a version that represents consensus among editors. See BRD for how this is done. You can post a request for help at a relevant noticeboard or seek dispute resolution. In some cases, you may wish to request temporary page protection. Mike V • Talk 18:02, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

A Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion

The following Wikimedia Commons file used on this page has been nominated for deletion:

• Rocio jurado ,la más grande .jpg

Participate in the deletion discussion at the nomination page. —Community Tech bot (talk) 08:06, 3 October 2018 (UTC)

Sales

@Asqueladd: inmediately reverted my edition about her sales and he changed again to the last "stable version" asking for a further explanation. According to his edit summary, source provided in current version is appropiate due its tenier (Vanity Fair) which is from 2018 instead my source from 2013 (Canal Sur), making it an "old news report".

With his attitude, I think will be more than appropriate explain some basic things. Music sales reports in some cases and sometimes aren't a matter of "old vs recent news" reports, because context matters. A 2013 report could seems wrong instead a new one from 2018-2019 and 2020, but for an artist who doesn't even have an "official" certification from music markets like Mexico or United States is highly questionable. Sure, she passed away on 2006, but even after that her name isn't appear nowhere in those music certifications bodies which could be expected for a dead artist (a boost in their sales).

One last thing, sources like EFE in 2016 reported 16 million, which is even less. In her context, an article from 2013/2016 vs 2020 aren't "old news", or she sold and doubled her sales to 25/30 million in matters of of 5-7 years? Personally I don't think so and I couldn't agree with you. 25/30 million records in her case probably are primary sources or vandalism in Wikipedia (thanks to Wikipedia, we could have a woozle effect with a "cycle information" everywhere). In her case, and with this background above, I think her sales figure should be around 16-17 million. After all, don't forget we have reliable sources supporting those figures as well.

I'll wait for any reply from you, or if you still disagree (which is highly probable), this could be served as a open consensus as well.

--Apoxyomenus (talk) 16:24, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I see you have devoted some words to cast aspersion ("vandalism"?) into a particular source (more recent), meanwhile you are fixated into another number. That doesn't hold up. "I think" What you think is irrelevant. If there is a need to set a range, a range can be set. But don't editorialize in an amateur way based on your beliefs.--Asqueladd (talk) 16:46, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

As I mentioned, you could still in disagree and you did. Everyone is welcome to this consensus. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 16:57, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I gave you an explanation with sources and a background information but seems you aren't acquainted with system we try to follow in Wikipedia about music certifications vs claim sales (you can see an example here in the list of best-selling music artists). Anyway, since my "amateur way" to contribute here could disturbing you, I've notified in the Wikiproject:Latin music about what others thinks and could add in. "Vandalism" I don't see what's the surprise? even you can see example with her article in es.wiki with these+versions. Maybe you could be aware that reliable sources copied information from Wikipedia tons of times, and music sales aren't the exception (and yes, we could "generalize" that almost many artists have inflated sales by this way).--Apoxyomenus (talk) 17:44, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

I agree with @Apoxyomenus:, it's more accurate to include the 16 million or even less. Also the "150 discos de oro y 63 de platino" it's not reliable at all, certs must be listed in sites like AMPROFON, RIAA and PROMUSICAE, or even from a more reliable source than Vanity Fair which doesn't work with record sales and certifications. If she had a discography article and info about each of her albums certs were included, maybe we can conclude about her sales more precisally, like is made for artists like Thalía.--88marcus (talk) 19:34, 12 July 2020 (UTC)

Well I don't know that much about her but I see how all of your points make sense in a way. There are a lot of people on wikipedia who put their own opinions on sales and that is actually what started the woozle effect causing inflated sales on several artists such as RBD. Now certifications are a good way to help calculate sales but for Hispanic artists it's harder to be accurate because almost every hispanic country where they certify don't have cites that keep archive of their certifications. Certifications aren't everything when it comes to sales because apart from them not having cites sometimes certification bodies don't always have correct information or full information about the certifications an artist got. She is an older generation artist so when she was at her best moment both RIAA (Latin) and AMPROFON weren't active or working the way they are today and all other Hispanic countries don't have webcites like I said. Now since she passed away in 2006, a 2013 source is not old news unless her record company has updated her certifications or released compilation albums since then that performed well commercially. Like 88marcus said, if Rocio Jurado had a discography page or every one of her albums had their own separate articles with sourced certifications that would be a good guide to the correct sales but since she doesn't we could either work on creating those articles or on adding more to her biography to include sources to her certifications to help us reach a more accurate number. For now let's not edit war about this but let's instead try to find sources for her certifications and sales. I know Marcus has the Spanish certifications book so he can in that part. I will look for the best sources to find certifications for her albums and songs. After we have added several sourced certifications we can then come back to the talk page and decide on a good number to use for her sales. FanDePopLatino (talk) 05:16, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

88marcus, yes i thought same about the fact of "150 discos de oro y 63 de platino" (150 gold and 63 platinum discs). Seems this is fake and was originated in Wikipedia, once again. This could be probably the first edit with that information, in which source provided didn't support that fact and own article says is based on Wikipedia. Eventually, wasn't never reverted apparently. According to this reference from People en Español (2006) she received during her career "5 platinum and 30 gold discs" ("cinco Discos de Platino y 30 Discos de Oro"). Could be impossible an increase of 120 gold and 58 platinum discs if most of the certifications bodies have available online their information and she didn't appear virtually nowhere (please correct me with proofs & links, if i'm wrong). Even using archive.org to brings back dead urls (CAPIF example etc), and there is not evidence as well in press conferences, news etc (I've tried at least, and even with a Google advance search; both English and Spanish). Don't forget, after 10 years of her deadth in 2016, sources like EFE reported her sales didn't increase, even according to PROMUSICAE, in which her native country (Spain) was probably her biggest market.

FanDePopLatino, yes you pointed out some points, but an update from a label (it's not necessarily specified in a policy) is not recommended. Don't forget we have sources reporting in her case 16-17 million (aren't old like if we say: 2000s, 1990s, 1980s). 16-17 million against 25-30 million it's a huge gab. Sometimes it's not a matter to put the "next available sales". Otherwise, we need to put e.g. 30 million for Paulina Rubio, 40-50 million for Thalía, 300M for Julio Iglesias or 1 billion for Michael Jackson, The Beatles and Elvis Presley and so on, since all of them have highly reliable sources reporting those figures.

User clearly stated in his summary: "In fact, until you explain why give prevalence to a 2013 news report in Canal Sur to a 2018 (more recent) profile vis-à-vis the lower threshold of sold records". Once again, seems newest sources (2018 ... 2019 ... etc) will be correct against references from in 2013 (or 2016) for her sales claims. But could be reasonable from him if he can supports his edit or at least support his action with sources and facts, beyond the fact of a "recent news is more appropiate". Otherwise, idk why we need to denied the previous background, which is based on guidelines like we do on cases like that and we follow in best-selling music artists. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 08:36, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

But could be reasonable from him if he can supports his edit or at least support his action with sources and facts I don't need. Furthermore I "don't have" to support "data" (in any case, I may also remind that you are the one intending to modify the stable version) with any other thing that with third-party sources backing up that "data". As long as you cannot make a reasonable assessment on why some sources are more authoritative than others (based on their editorial policy, how in-topic they are or whatever, but not on what they actually state, whether you agree with it or not), this is going nowhere (or at least it should be going nowhere). And I am all for a level-up on sources, using peer-reviewed articles published in academic journals and whatnot, but choosing an older source of Canal Sur—as authoritative if not less than the rest—and using it to cast aspersion into what newer sources state stinks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. And by the way, the number in that source—whether if it is "right" or "wrong"—is not precisely a glitch in the matrix: (2016: +25) 2020: +30(2020: +30)2020: +302020 (2020 =35) I frankly don't know if those are too many sales or not, nor I care. But the editorialization and the de facto random choice of some sources (older ffs!) over others should be a no-go.--Asqueladd (talk) 09:08, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

"Older sources", one more time. I'm aware of the fact of 25 million claims as I mentioned above (25/30), or even 20 million I saw in some questionable sources. The fact are guidelines we follow with claims sales + certifications in Wikipedia. That's the reason of a "lower claim" with 16/17 million. It's not a random choice or in your point of view, is not a question of WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Sure, first at all, I made the change but in seconds you reverted that change with a summary asking for a further explanation. I did, and you just mention concerns about "editorialization" and numbers are just "facts". That's not enough because you're retaining a "stable version" based on your belief what's "correct". Anyway, let's see what others thinks (at least, you can see nobody agree yet with the fact to remain her 30 million claims). --Apoxyomenus (talk) 09:36, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

@Apoxyomenus I was actually pointing out that your source for the 16-17 million from 2013 is NOT old news like the other user said. I agree with you that that source is fine because after that date she hasn't had any new certifications given by her record company on behalf of IFPI, RIAA, PROMUSICAE, AMPROFON, etc. It's like the case for Selena who passed away in 1995 and after that her sales skyrocketed and a couple years ago her singles started getting certifications in RIAA so that's a case when we could use a recent source to update her sales, but now when it comes to Rocio Jurado she hasn't gotten any more certifications in over a decade so a 2013 source is okay to use. If someone thinks she should have higher sales than the 17 million then they should work on her article by adding certifications in order to help reach a more accurate sales number, I was just suggesting that we all worked on it together but that's okay. FanDePopLatino (talk) 20:37, 13 July 2020 (UTC)

Agree FanDelPopLatino. Personally, I've tried to find newer and oldest certifications in press conferences, official websites like AMPROFON, RIAA etc. With an advance Google search, encrypted or not, with key words, both in English/Spanish, with a range of date etc etc. Also with Google books, academic and others websites, web search engine and so on, but there is nothing beyond some examples from Spain and a 100k copies of one album in MEX.

User stated he "don't need" to proof what he calls the "stable version" with the 30M figure claim, since its has been supported by tons of reliable sources and a variable range of 25-30 million. After all, are "data". IMHO, it's just a woozle effect example. I can't imagine if i change all possible artists with their higher claims or a "range" with that logic. Surely, i could be blocked if a follow that idea.

So, my 2 cents in other words is wait until 1 week to close this discussion in case if there is a possibility of more comments and put "16 million records + 5 platinum and 30 gold discs" - (88marcus suggested put the lowest claim -16 million- I also agree with that and he pointed out the disputable fact of her gold/platinum discs. We could put a footnote of others sources claims "150 gold and 63 platinum discs") Do you agree guys with that suggestion, @88marcus: and @FanDePopLatino: or any other idea?. Thanks in advance, --Apoxyomenus (talk) 01:00, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah @Apoxyomenus: for now that sounds good. The footnote would actually be very useful for readers and also others wikipedia editors in case they wanna research her career more. I think that would be a good way to keep her article for now. FanDePopLatino (talk) 03:39, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Yeah @Apoxyomenus:. To me is perfect.--88marcus (talk) 03:52, 14 July 2020 (UTC)

Thanks. Has been changed. --Apoxyomenus (talk) 15:40, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

So you've just decided which sources to pick based solely on flimsy personal opinions, calling it a "consensus", a case "closed" and allowing for shoddy editorialization in the lead. That's crappy editing.--Asqueladd (talk) 16:01, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

I took a look at Rocio Jurado's available certified sales she's had in Spain using Solo Exitos for her certifications issued until 2002 (1979-1990, 1991-1995). She also has one Platinum issued in 2007, and Gold issued in 2008 both of which are available here. She's collected 10 Gold awards and 2 Platinum awards between 1979-present (9 of the Gold certs at 50,000 units, 1 Gold at 40,000 units), (One Platinum at 100,000 units, the most recent one at 80,000 units). The total from her market comes to 670,000 units starting 1979. I Could not find certifications for her in other markets. Also, it's worth pointing out that most of South American and Central American music markets are extremely tiny and do not generate enough sales, with an exception of Brazil, Mexico and Argentina, but even the latter two are not big. So even if Jurado had sold some records in that region, her worldwide records sales couldn't have been more than 10-15 million considering that her records sales coming from her own home market aren't plausible enough to begin with. We should definitely go with the lower available sales figure.--Harout72 (talk) 02:22, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

Spain certifications

• Here are the Rocio's albums charts and certifications in Spain (by the mentioned book above):
• Albums
• Peak - Weeks in the charts
• 21 oct 78 De ahora en adelante 14 /19/ GOLD
• 9 feb 80 Señora 2 /35/ PLATINUM
• 18 abr 81 Canciones de España 13 /17/ GOLD
• 13 feb 82 Como una ola 5 /17/ GOLD
• 1983 Y sin embargo te quiero (Canciones de España II) 20 /2/ ("Lecturas" chart)
• 8 mar 86 Paloma brava 2 /15/ GOLD
• 21 mar 87 ¿Dónde estas amor? 11 /21/ GOLD
• 2 ene 88 Hasta la ultima gota 32 /4/ GOLD
• 22 oct 88 Canciones de España (a mi querido Rafael de Leon) 34 /6/
• 13 may 89 Punto de partida 12 /21/ GOLD
• 9 jun 90 Rocio de luna blanca 21 /8/ GOLD
• 19 sept 91 Sevilla 27 /2/
• 8 may 93 Como las alas del viento 2 /18/ PLATINUM
• 3 dic 94 Palabra de honor 35 /3/ GOLD
• 2 may 98 Con mis cinco sentidos 7 /11/ GOLD
• 31 mar 01 La mas grande 5 /11/ PL
• 10 may 03 Yerbabuena y nopal 36 /1/
• 11 dic 04 Señora (antologia completa) 28 /12/ GOLD
• 10-6-06 (re): 10 /+14/
• 11 feb 06 Rocio siempre 3 /52/ PLATINUM
• 6 may 06 Esencial 7 /12/
• 10 jun 06 Volcan de amor y fuego 21 /11/
• 1 jul 06 Oro 62 /7/
• 2 jun 07 30 canciones de amor 31 /6/
• 9 jun 07 La copla 8 /9/
• 7 jun 08 Flamenco 4 /30/ GOLD
• 23 may 09 Unica 33 /6/
• 30 may 09 El amor mas grande (las grandes baladas) 47 /13/
• 18 jun 16 El legado de Rocio Jurado 99 /1/

--88marcus (talk) 06:38, 26 July 2020 (UTC)