Talk:Robert Venables

Copyleft problems

I have deleted this article and recreated it as a stub.

This is because Wikipedia Wikipedia:Text of Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike 3.0 Unported License allows commercial distribution, but the current licence used by the British Civil War website is Attribution-Non-Commercial-Share Alike 3.0 Unported, which places a restriction "Non-Commercial — You may not use this work for commercial purposes." which the Wikipedia license does not.

Providing the requirements of the Terms of Use and WP:plagiarism are met there is no reason why information from the British Civil War website can not be summarised and and cited like any other copyright text. But it can not be copied under its copyleft licence into Wikipedia articles because its licence is more restrictive than the Wikipedia licence. --PBS (talk) 11:37, 26 July 2009 (UTC)

February 2011

I have reverted revert these edits by 143.238.0.122

(1) because middling sort does not correspond to class as it later became defined (just as we do not have yeomen today) A Google search returns lots on this here is a link from the first page returned. Morrill ODNB says he was from a minor branch of the family, this is important because it explains his relative poverty, given that it is in the source you should not have removed it.

(2) the major the issue is you have added information into cited paragraphs without providing citations and so the information is uncited and it is misleading because people will think that the citation supports the fact. For example:

Venables' children to his first wife were, Peter, John, Robert, Thomas who married his step sister Elizabeth Lee, Mary who married her cousin Richard Venables, Elizabeth who married William Ravenscroft and Frances who married her step brother Thomas Lee of Darnhall. ... and Mary Aldersey of London. Venables' son Thomas, and daughter Frances both married the children of his second wife, Elizabeth and her first husband Thomas Lee of Darnhall. Venables second wife, Elizabeth Lee was the niece of Thomas Coventry, 1st Baron Coventry and his wife, Elizabeth, Baroness Coventry of Aylesborough.

None of that is supported by the citation before which you have inserted this that information.

Also how is this information about his children and distant relation by law to Thomas Coventry to notable?

To the the editor using the changing IP addresses, please See (WP:PROVEIT part of WP:V and also WP:CITE before adding any more information to this article and consider creating an account. -- PBS (talk) 09:11, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Does the information you are using come from Brown, Henrietta Brady (1961). Some Venables of England and America and brief accounts of families into which certain Venables married. Kinderton Press.? If so please quote the relevant page and passage here as the book is on the net in snippet form. -- PBS (talk) 09:43, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Lack of personal insight

Hi You have done a great job in extending the info. on Robert Venables, I do however disagree with these points:- 1) after reading, "while his mothers family were from the upper middling sort" I was under the impression it was talking about class? Phrehaps you should reword "upper middling sort" this may make sense to you, but to me it seems to be a jumble of words that don't seem to have a real meaning. And i believe its wording is a bit unconventional for a wiki site. 2) I must apologise for adding this info. without cheaking your citation; I didn't realise it was there. I will be adding this info. back into the text and i will be supporting it with the appropiate sources. I would however appreciate it if you didn't remove it with in the few hours after it had been saved. I may need about 12 hours after the save, to give me a chance to go over my sources in detail. I also believe that that after reading Venables second wife's diary, that she did in fact influence him majorly. The lack of info. you provided about his family, is something i feel should be fixed. I also felt that Elizabeth Venables being the niece of Thomas Coventry, was something of an interesting fact?; and am somewhat confused when you question its notability as it is clearly relavent and it is nothing but a mere mention? I will go through my sources tommorrow. Thanks. I would appreciate some advice and feedback. Regards (Ian3280 (talk) 11:47, 19 February 2011 (UTC))

I will remove the word upper from before middling sort and find a suitable citation for what it means. It is not a at all an unusual expression for the period. The major reason for using it is because the information is taken from the ODNB and I don't want to plagiarise their content:

while his mother's father and brother were on the cusp of the gentry and yeomanry, regularly serving as grand jurymen at assizes and quarter sessions.

— ODNB

It is better to make sure that the information is correct with a citation before adding it rather than putting it in place and then leaving it while sorting out citations.

The point about notability is that relationships have to be notable. For example I am in the process of writing an article on Samuel Browne (judge) now he had a number of cousins but the one that is notable is Oliver St John because he helped him get into Parliament—See this raw DNB article for a biography  Stephen, Leslie, ed. (1886). "Samuel Browne". Dictionary of National Biography. Vol. 7. London: Smith, Elder & Co. pp. 61, 62. —We don't list genealogical information for the sake of it, as this is not a geological web site, the information has to be notable. Not many people object to a listing of close family members an perhaps a biographical line if they do not have an article, but more distant relationships (such as cousins) are not usually included unless they are notable for some reason other than that they are related.

As to his family, and his relationship with his wife is not really mentioned by Firth in the DNB but what John Morrill clearly thinks she was a nag, He says in the ODNB is:

His second wife, Elizabeth (c.1614–1689), ... It was a loveless match with someone who disliked his politics, disdained his religion, and disapproved of his manners. She escorted him to the Indies,... Perhaps his first error had been to take his new wife with him.

and

... Venables was released from prison but relieved of all his military commands. He retreated to Cheshire, far from the complaints of Cromwell if not those of Mrs Venables.

and finally:

He had to live out his life as a disgraced man with a sharp-tongued wife who disapproved of all he stood for. ... But one senses that he never heard the end of it and that death did not come too soon to him; he died at Wincham in his seventy-fifth year, and was buried in July 1687.

As it is emphasised in the ODNB, I have no objection to this being relationship being mentioned -- PBS (talk) 12:40, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

photo

I also a some old photo's of wincham, would you consider it relavent to add it to this article to help liven it up a bit? (Ian3280 (talk) 11:58, 19 February 2011 (UTC))

Yes it would. I had a look at the web and came across these links [1] and [2] and [3], so I think he bough the Hall but I have not looked in detail so I am not sure. -- PBS (talk) 13:07, 19 February 2011 (UTC)

Lead

I couldn't stand the way there were so. many. sentences. in. a. row. that began with *He* in the lead because it was starting to sound like a 3rd grade English composition, so I tweaked those, made a sentence of a sentence fragment, added some Wikilinks, fixed a naked exposure in the text ref cite, & did some grammar/punctuation/typo tidying. ScarletRibbons (talk) 22:18, 10 June 2014 (UTC)