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Archive 1

Opening heading

After viewing the movie Birdman of Alcatraz for the first time. I have been able to do nothing else but research Robert F. Stroud. My most curious questions are... where are the manuscripts he wrote on the prison systems ? What happened to the handwritten manuscripts from the two books written on birds ? Being that they are still in publication , where do the proceeds go now ? Just where is he laid to rest ? What really happened to Della May Jones-Stroud ? Did she ever actually take on the last name of Stroud ?

The facts as I have found them are not really always factual . Many of the questions have no answers to be found . Any help one may be able to give please do .

Thanks

The phrase "took advantage of ... Kitty" is a unnecessarily ambiguous. Was it a sexual assault and/or rape? If it was, I think it would be better to make it explicit. --Malcohol 12:59, 8 Dec 2004 (UTC)


I made a few minor fixes and tried to make it flow a bit better, but this page definitely needs work from someone who knows the story better that me. The sources on the web tend to contradict each other. In particular: what were the circumstances of Stroud's first murder? Did his bird cures actually work? How old was Della Jones? What were the circumstances of his eventual transfer to Alcatraz? --Misterwindupbird 17:52, 28 May 2005 (UTC)

Some more on Robert Stroud

I saw a television documentary on Alcatraz, and it said something worth noting about Robert Stroud. When some other inmates made a escape attempt, (that eventually failed), and gunfire was exchanged between the guards and the inmates attempting to escape, Mr. Stroud, risked his life to help some people who were in danger of being shot. That was probably one of the only times in his life he put himself on the line for his fellow humans, but, it deserves mention.204.80.61.10 14:33, 26 April 2006 (UTC)Bennett Turk

Disputed: President Wilson Involvement

The current wording of President and Mrs. Wilson's involvement in the case -- "secretly running the country" -- is not a neutral point-of-view, and does not factually agree with the Woodrow Wilson article. Propose to change to a more neutral tone. Generally, there are insufficient footnotes and references in this article. hadley 03:45, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

The bird "cures"

This article states that the bird concoctions devised by Stroud were a real advance in bird medicine. However, I have read a book that says otherwise. I will see if I can find it and quote from it.--Mantanmoreland 22:40, 27 November 2006 (UTC)

possible stroud-vulture connection?

just wondering...any chance Stan Lee based the Spider-Man villain the Vulture (comics) off of Stroud? They look somewhat identical and both are "birdmen" in a sense. just a thought...

Now that you metion it, they do look very much alike, just like Doctor Octopus looks like Roy Orbison. P.S. In the future, please sign name with 4~s. 204.80.61.110 17:59, 23 August 2007 (UTC)Bennett Turk

'Aggressive Homosexual'

I'm not sure what the claim that he was an "aggressive homosexual" is supposed to mean. I understand that a man can be aggressive, and that a man can be homosexual, but I'm not sure what it means to put them together like that. Is it supposed to suggest that he was prone to sexually assaulting other men? If so, that should be said openly (and backed with evidence). As it stands I worry that it could be taken as a homophobic slur while not providing any real meaning. Iglew (talk) 03:02, 26 April 2009 (UTC)

Those phrases were taken directly from Hurley's book, as indicated. Phrases in [] are my clarifications but the "'wolf' (aggressive homosexual)" is exactly as it appears in the book. The book was purchased at the Alcatraz Island gift shop and Hurley was a resident on Alcatraz while his father was a guard there. Hurley was himself a federal prison guard. My interpretation is that Stroud attempted to sexually assault other men (prisoners) thus posing a danger to himself and others. The wording was probably candy coated a bit by Hurley so as not to offend casual readers, even though Hurley was well aware of what happens in maximum security prisons. Brookfield53045 (talk) 04:28, 14 November 2009 (UTC)

I wonder if those claims can be taken seriously. I mean, the guy's dead, anyone he may have allegedly tried to rape is most likely dead as well, all we have is the word of a guy whose dad was a prison guard who probably wasn't a big fan of Stroud. I'm not trying to defend Stroud, I'm not trying to uphold the saintly image of his character in the film because I know if he indeed was gay and/or did have the tendencies of a rapist, then those are not things that would be openly portrayed in an American film made in 1962. But Hurley's claims must be taken with a grain of salt. That's all I'm saying. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.189.90.68 (talk) 22:26, 22 December 2009 (UTC)

Vague sentence

Reading this bit, it seemed a little vague:

While there, Stroud was reprimanded by a guard in the cafeteria for a minor rule violation. Although the infraction was not a serious one, it could have annulled Stroud's visitation privilege to meet his younger brother, whom he had not seen in eight years.

What does "could have" mean here - did it annul his visitation privilege, or not? Is this speculation, or just a lack of further information, or what? David (talk) 22:05, 16 June 2010 (UTC)

tone

The tone of the "Personal relationships" section is not exactly neutral. WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 18:10, 19 October 2010 (UTC)

Robert Stroud

Given that most of his coverage is under "Robert Stroud", and no other article by the same name seems to exist, would anyone object to a move to that name?--Yaksar (let's chat) 02:15, 14 April 2011 (UTC)


Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Robert Stroud. Favonian (talk) 08:55, 19 September 2011 (UTC)

Robert Franklin Stroud → Robert Stroud – Per WP:COMMONNAME and what seems, at least from the discussion above, to be a lack of opposition. Yaksar (let's chat) 05:50, 12 September 2011 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Nonsense removed

I removed the following nonsense from the end of the article, following the categories:

(( Birdman-robert franklin stroud manslaughter-12 years silenced assault 6 months murder-life sentenced. Born-january 28 1890 seattle washington u.s america Died-died november 21 1963 springfield missouri u.s america. - BRANDON SWOPE 5/23/13))

David Spector (talk) 01:00, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

What happened to the birds???

Jesus, this article is incoherent! There's hardly a word said about the man's birds at all - yet the reason he's notable is for being the "Birdman of" (well, Leavenworth, if not Alcatraz.) The "prison life" section is just a litany of his misadventures in courtrooms; it's not about his life (particularly with the birds) in prison at all. And who is this "Gaddis" who is mentioned once, with no explanation? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.229.62.47 (talk) 05:51, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

I, too, wonder what happened to the birds, his business, his book income, his incomplete book manuscript, what, if anything, he accomplished of value in Alcatraz and Springfield, and this Gaddis. Don't have time to do the research. David Spector (talk) 01:04, 24 July 2013 (UTC)

Location of first killing

While the improvement to the article since last I noticed is rather impressive, one gaping hole exists. Reading the text, one may gather that Stroud's first killing occurred in Cordova. He didn't stay very long in Cordova. He was actually living at the time in Juneau, where the crime occurred on Gastineau Avenue. This is reflected in far too many sources to mention, which makes it strange that something so important would escape the notice of a GA review. RadioKAOS / Talk to me, Billy / Transmissions 20:58, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

I still have a lot I need to add to this having now got hold of the biography. I'm not feeling like wikipedia at the moment, you're welcome to make additions. The GA reviewer doesn't know anything about Stroud, why would you expect them to know?♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:32, 18 December 2013 (UTC)

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High IQ is possibly a myth

I cannot find evidence for the alleged IQ of 134 conducted by the psychiatrist Romney in 1943. I have seen multiple copies of the 1943 report in question and they all say he had Superior Intelligence - 112 with a Psychopathic Personality. I thought that that must be a mistake because 130+ is generally considered superior. However, the Stanford-Binet scale back than classified 110 - 120 IQ as superior. I believe that this figure along with the "Birdman of Alcatraz - kind gentleman in prison" myth that has been propagated is a fiction. We know for certain he was a rapist (a "wolf", someone who rapes other inmates) and was segregated for this reason, along with being a vicious murderer. I believe that his intelligence as well as his personality have been mythologised. I don't want to change this figure lest I be accused of vandalism so I'll just leave a link to the original summary. You can find multiple ones online from independant sources. 1 2 31.205.244.216 (talk) 02:15, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

Also, there's this source which says his IQ was 116 when tested in the other prison he was in. This is in the same range as the 112 figure tested later, it is common for IQ to fluctuate by 4 points but not by 28 points. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Robert_Stroud#/media/File:Stroud_in_Warden_notebook.jpeg 31.205.244.216 (talk) 03:00, 30 May 2018 (UTC)

I'd fix this but...

...I can't even figure out what it means.

Lead sentence of the "Birdman" section:

"While at hays, Stroud found three injured sparrows..."

What or where is "hays"? Does the article mean the prison at Leavenworth? Hays is of no help. Huw Powell (talk) 19:32, 15 April 2008 (UTC)

It's old vandalism which got overlooked. Reverted. Vilĉjo (talk) 15:32, 12 July 2008 (UTC)
   My Wikt-sense suggests to me that "Hays" is not mere vand, but punk-kid-vand aimed at a school perceived by a troubled student as like being sentenced to Alcatraz. It's routinely tough growing up -- do I have a catchphrase right in at least evoking the condition as young, talented, and black"? ... which I wouldn't much regret misquoting, since the truth remains that even "young, whatever, and conscious" is a damn hard road to travel as well.-- OK, your regularly scheduled chat and collegial rumination now resumes."
--
Jerzy•t 04:45, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

 Jerzy•t 04:47, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

bootlegging?

Does anyone have a source for the claim Stroud was bootlegging from his cell? I'm somewhat skeptical. Was he really supposed to be secretly importing all the raw ingredients, operating a still operation in a cell, bribing everyone involved, and smuggling the booze out via his mail-order business? Even if it was possible, was it really so hard to get booze during the time that people would purchase it in this way? --Misterwindupbird 05:03, 20 December 2005 (UTC)

Since there's no source, and nobody has spoken up, I removed the paragraph. --Misterwindupbird 04:00, 13 January 2006 (UTC)


I believe if you go to www.alcatrez.com you will find information which does indicate that Robert Stroud was bootlegging from his cell.24.107.188.23 21:12, 11 March 2007 (UTC)stldiamond

The Frankenheimer film, for all its fabrication, does drop a hint: Burt Lancaster has access to pure ethyl alcohol for his bird research, and uses it to get drunk.WHPratt (talk) 05:38, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

I havent a clue what this means

Robert Franklin Stroud (January 28 1890 – November 21 1963), known as the Birdman of Alcatraz, was a prisoner in Alcatraz who supposedly found solace from segregation in raising and selling birds. Despite his nickname, he never kept birds in Alcatraz, running his business until transferred to Alcatraz from Leavenworth.

I shouldn't have to read the story to understand the opening paragraph. --Richard Arthur Norton (1958- ) 02:37, 25 February 2007 (UTC)

What part is confusing to you? It makes sense to me. Vivaldi (talk) 18:35, 11 March 2007 (UTC)
&;&; We now have in that 'graph
Jerzy•t 05:01, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

Robert Franklin Stroud (January 28, 1890 – November 21, 1963), known as the "Birdman of Alcatraz", was a convicted murderer, American federal prisoner and author who has been cited as one of the most notorious criminals in the United States.[1][2][3] During his time at Leavenworth Penitentiary, he reared and sold birds and became a respected ornithologist, although regulations did not allow him to keep birds at Alcatraz, where he was incarcerated from 1942 to 1959. Stroud was never released from the federal prison system. Jerzy•t 08:05, 27 November 2018 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Gregory 2008, p. 37.
  2. ^ Ryan & Schlup 2006, p. 2012.
  3. ^ Benton, Lisa M. (1998). The Presidio: From Army Post to National Park. UPNE. p. 228. ISBN 978-1-55553-335-9.

Birdman of Alcatraz (Book)

How true was the book? And was it a best-seller before the film came out? Valetude (talk) 13:54, 19 June 2019 (UTC)

Prisoner number at McNeil

There are two prisoner numbers: #1854 in the file description and #1853-M in the main pane. Could anyone verify which is correct? It seems that Mayo's 2008 book is the reference. Thank you, --ProfessorPine (talk) 03:17, 26 June 2019 (UTC)

 Done Thanks to @Ewulp. --ProfessorPine (talk) 01:29, 11 November 2019 (UTC)

Marriage

What about his marriage? Was it actually legal? How long did it last? Why did the attorney get Stroud's belongings and not his wife? Did she die before him? Was there a divorce? Very curious. 2600:8800:C89:EA00:C23F:D5FF:FEC4:D51D (talk) 10:29, 19 April 2021 (UTC)

Clean-up lead

I have tagged this article as having multiple issues with lead section. Guideline WP:LEAD, at WP:LEADLENGTH indicate a good article should have a lead section of no more than 4 paragraphs or about 300 words. This article's lead section has extra information that is not included in the body of the article. resulting in the lead extending to 6 paragraphs. So I added the clean-up tag {{Lead extra info}}. Based on MOS:LEAD, the lead section should introduce and summarize an article, without being too verbose or detailed. The fifth paragraph, which is about subject's role the Battle of Alcatraz could be summarized in a sentence. Stroud's role, whether the real account, or an over-dramatized fictionalized movie version is not covered elsewhere in either this article or the one about the battle. This makes this biographical coverage appear inaccurate, which is worse than totally omitting it, because its presence teases the reader and raises their expectations about the full article only to be disappointed by the absence of further coverage. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 00:28, 10 September 2023 (UTC)

Characterizations Based on Fictional Writings

In the penultimate section "Truth versus Fiction" is the quote "...Stroud was also known to write pornographic fiction, much of it perversely involving children. These surviving documents point to the fact that Stroud was at least a latent pedophile...." I'm not comfortable characterizing someone based on their fictional writings. I doubt that horror writers, for example, are especially violent or morbid. Moreover, in the previous sentence is "...much of it perversely involving children." The term "perversely" seems too opinionated, or maybe I'm thinking too journalistically.

To whomever maintains this article, I'd recommend excising the entire sentence containing the first quote and the word "perversely" from the second. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.155.49.130 (talk) 17:21, 23 September 2005 (UTC)

On 6 October 2005, this edit toned down the text you quote, while a second edit removed the speculative second sentence. Over time, the text you quote, along with the whole section, has been excised from the article. - Cameron Dewe (talk) 01:14, 10 September 2023 (UTC)
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