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Archive 1

Nora Ann Simmonds

User:Michael stephens has changed the name of Sir Robert's first wife to "Simmons", without citation. The Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, a top resource, and IMDB both have "Simmonds". I have added a {{fact}} request to the change. --Old Moonraker 19:27, 25 April 2007 (UTC)


Robert Stephens and spelling of first wife's name

Good day to you,

On the Robert Stephens discussion page you have left a note querying user Michael Stephens's spelling of Nora Ann Simmons and citing the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography and IMDB who both spell it as Simmonds. For my own part I assume that someone on IMDB has merely reproduced the spelling in the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography incorrect spelling. It may be that IMDB was consulted first by the researchers of the Oxford Dictionary of National Biography, can stranger things have happened? Do electronic or hard copy reference works carry equal weight? An oft repeated mistake is still a mistake.

User Michael Stephens and his mother Nora Ann Simmons are both known to me personally. Michael also has another relative on the pages of Wikipedia. The late James Simmons, Northern Ireland poet, is the brother of Nora Ann and the uncle of Michael. His name is well documented on his Wikipedia entry.

There is in existence this book - Knight Errant: Memoirs of a Vagabond Actor by Robert Stephens and Michael Coveney. I remember the book being serialised in one of the UK Sunday papers and I also remember that early on there is a reference to the great man's first wife - Nora Ann Simmons.

I will hunt out this book: there may be a copy in my local library. Will that do if you are unconvinced by the James Simmons argument?

Porthugh 23:03, 13 June 2007 (UTC)

Thanks for your interest in following this up. I noticed the James Simmons connection and thought to find some mention of Ann somewhere in material about him. I did find a little more to add to his page, but nothing about Ann, I'm afraid. From the discussions with Michael I have had it is obviously of great concern to family members to get this right and I look forward to reading the citation you mention. Incidentally, ODNB has come under renewed attack for inaccuracy this week: the family of novelist Patrick O'Brian have described his dictionary entry as a "travesty" in a national paper, but I can't now remember which one. --Old Moonraker 21:38, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Old Moonraker:

Unfortunately a search of both my public library and university library did not yield a copy of the book I mentioned. I can only repeat that Michael is personally known to me as was his mother and his uncle James. The family name is Simmons. I may think of some other verification this weekend. Porthugh 09:17, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I accept your account of the family name completely. It's just a question of finding a source from which to cite that will trump the ODNB. If we leave it as it is, someone will quickly come along and revert it: this is what I nearly did, until I noticed the name of the editor who made the correction. --Old Moonraker 09:33, 15 June 2007 (UTC)
I don't mean to butt in here, but I happened to read this section as I was posting the next one. I thought maybe I could help to find a source, so I put in a request at my university library's interlibrary loan service for Knight Errant, and it just arrived the other day, from Arizona State University.
The last paragraph on page 12 of this book begins with the following sentence: "That's where I met Nora Ann Simmonds, my first wife." So this book seems to verify that the name Simmonds does contain a D.
I'll have the book for another month and a half, if you have more questions about it. —Bkell (talk) 21:32, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
Not butting in at all: the more views the better—I just wish they were all pointing in the same direction! It seems that now Bkell has found a copy of the above book, its spelling of "Simmonds" doesn't read as the previous posts expected, and this is Sir Robert's own memoirs. I cited the ODNB previously, but naturally they would have consulted the autobiography and if there had been a mistake there, they would have carried it forward. Against that, we have the well-attested spelling of James Simmons. Does the autobiography mention Nora Ann's family background?
From the Wikipedia point of view, it's not a problem: there are two strong sources for "Simmonds" and that would be the one to go with. Personally, I'm baffled and therefore disinclined to alter the article myself. --Old Moonraker 21:59, 18 July 2007 (UTC)
(unindent) The book doesn't seem to mention any of Nora Ann's relatives by name. She is mentioned in five paragraphs on pages 12–14, and once again on page 23. According to the book, her father was an estate agent in Londonderry, and she came from "another class of people", who considered Sir Robert to be not from the "correct social stratum".
The trouble was, Nora Ann became pregnant as I came to the end of my second year, so we had to get married as I left the school in 1951. It was the classic shotgun wedding. The minute Nora Ann gave birth to our little boy, Michael Christopher, she went back to Londonderry. We had hardly been together at all. I was nineteen.
Later:
Nora Ann's brother adopted Michael and brought him up. I had no idea what happened thereafter or how he matured, until I meet him years later. Nora Ann went back into the theatre, but she never really made any impression.
That seems to be about all the information on Nora Ann's family that this book can provide. —Bkell (talk) 22:20, 18 July 2007 (UTC)

Illustrated extract from Knight Errant here. It may be subject to automatic bot delete, in which case I'll have to transfer the image to this page. --Old Moonraker 17:58, 24 July 2007 (UTC)

The {{fact}} request has been attached to this piece of information for some time now, but nothing new has come to light. In the spirit of WP:V, going with the sources we have. --Old Moonraker (talk) 15:23, 3 December 2008 (UTC)

As it says in the project page: "red links help Wikipedia grow". Esme Church seems notable enough for an article so I've left it here, in hope. --Old Moonraker (talk) 21:31, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

In fact, I've just about dug up enough referenced material to start this off so, with some patience, watch this space for a blue link in due course.--Old Moonraker (talk) 21:39, 13 January 2010 (UTC)

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