Talk:Robert Henley, 1st Earl of Northington

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Categorization as peer

The category Category:Peers of Great Britain created by George II is placed on the redirect Robert Henley, 1st Baron Northington.

HandsomeFella (talk) 19:02, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Peer creation

Oh, so you mean one can only be created a peer once? Can you back that claim up somehow?

How about for instance Robert Smith, 1st Baron Carrington? He was created a peer in the Peerage of Ireland in 1796. He was created a peer – again, apparently – with the same title, but in the Peerage of the United Kingdom, the next year. That seems to contradict your claim. There are more examples.

HandsomeFella (talk) 19:07, 17 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi again. Let me pick your argument apart.

Robert Henley was created Earl of Northington by George III.
An earl is a kind of peer.
Ergo: Henley was created a peer by George III.

Also, please note that the name of the category is *not* "Peers of Great Britain first created by George II".

FYI, the redirect Robert Henley, 1st Baron Northington is placed in category Category:Peers of Great Britain created by George II. This would reflect his first creation, as Baron Northington, by George II, hopefully to your satisfaction.

I am now going to change the categorization of the main article back. Please discuss, with me or someone else, before reverting again.

Cheers.

HandsomeFella (talk) 07:54, 19 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've copied the two posts above from my talk page.

Of course someone can be granted any number of peerages, but an individual is either a peer or a commoner. The category description for Category:Peers of Great Britain created by George III is "People raised to the peerage of Great Britain from the accession of King George III in 1760...". When Lord Henley was created Earl of Northington in 1764 he wasn't raised from being a commoner to being a peer of Great Britain; he already was a peer of Great Britain. Promoting a baron to an earldom doesn't make him any more of a peer than he was before. George III granted him another peerage, yes, but could not grant him a status that he already held, that of peer of Great Britain. So George III created him an earl, but did not create him a peer.

The first Lord Carrington is a different case because his two creations were in two different jurisdictions. When he was created a peer of Ireland in 1796 he remained a commoner as far as the Kingdom of Great Britain was concerned, and indeed continued to sit in the House of Commons as such. When he was created Baron Carrington of Upton in 1797, he was a commoner who was raised to the status of a peer of Great Britain. So both categories are appropriate for him. Opera hat (talk) 15:25, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Saw the notice on the project, and I'm inclined to agree with Opera hat, here. Making a commoner a baron, or a baron an earl (in the same peerage) are both new creations of peerages. However, to say that a person is "created a peer" is something I would normally associate with the first case only; granting a new peerage to someone who has already been created a peer would normally be described with boilerplate like "further ennobled" or something of that sort. Both, of course, are distinctions, but the grant of a peerage to a commoner is, I would say, the more significant one, as it historically gave them a vote in the Lords, and this exercise of prerogative was more of a political question, to a later date, than that of elevation in rank. (Well, ranks may have been important for Richard II's creations, but I digress.) In that context, the distinction between creation as a peer of Ireland or Scotland and as a peer of England/Great Britain/the UK does seem worth distinguishing, as it meant a seat in different national legislatures. I'm not sure there's much value in double-categorizing peers who were created in both the EN and GB, or GB and UK peerages. Choess (talk) 22:30, 20 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Allright then. It seems I'll have to go through a few categories. HandsomeFella (talk) 07:58, 21 April 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Opera hat, Choess, and HandsomeFella, this strikes me as a bad family of categories. Peerages are created, and people can be created peers, but peers are not created, except perhaps by their Creator, they are ennobled. Could we please start a renaming discussion to fix the word? Moonraker (talk) 02:26, 7 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

See the similar sub-categories of Category:Cardinals by papal appointment. Opera hat (talk) 20:15, 13 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]