Talk:River Thames frost fairs

Untitled

Add the current temperature data of the river to give a datum for extreme changes or slow warming —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.68.91.165 (talk) 17:15, 12 February 2009 (UTC)

Climate

As far as I know, 'climate' is climate. There is no such thing as 'winter climate' – this is bad usage.... it should be 'climate... in winter' (unlike, for example, 'winter weather', etc). Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 18:05, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

I don't agree that it's bad usage (I think that "winter climate" and "climate in winter" are equivalent), but I am happy to change it. Previously the article said that the climate was more severe, without any qualification as to season, which I think was arguably incorrect. JH (talk page) 18:54, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

Winter climate is fine; just as mid-latitude climate is fine William M. Connolley (talk) 21:14, 16 April 2008 (UTC)

One of the coldest 4 or 5

I removed the unreferenced and unspecific claim to "one of the coldest 4 or 5 winters" as per Jimbo's quote on WP:BURDEN --Bardcom (talk) 16:46, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Having seen this, I will provide evidence that it was, in fact, the coldest winter on record in an area roughly corresponding to the English Midlands. JH (talk page) 16:56, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Thanks. What you're missing is Bardcom's one-man campaign to remove the words "British Isles" from wikipedia. See Wikipedia:Requests_for_arbitration. Bardcom, please stop playing silly games or you'll be blocked William M. Connolley (talk) 17:34, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Please no ad hominen attacks, and assume good faith. You've given no reason to revert a good edit and reference to support a claim. Or do you have one? --Bardcom (talk) 17:40, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

William M. Connolley, you reverted an unsourced claim and Bardcom removed it for whatever reason. British Isles or not, the reason does not matter, imho you have overstepped the admin mark blocking him for an edit you, and likely the others who added or revert it, cannot, currently, verify. Bad call on both ends I feel. ww2censor (talk) 17:54, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Take a look at the RFA, and Bardcoms edits William M. Connolley (talk) 19:01, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

I seen them and as I suggested you still can't provide a verifiable source. ww2censor (talk) 20:41, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Then the correct procedure is well known: you add a {{cn}} tag, if you feel some concern. Ripping the words out because you happen to dislike the words "British Isles" is not sensible William M. Connolley (talk) 20:53, 12 July 2008 (UTC)

Luckily the source for the referenced fact is available on line. The source simply does not support William M. Connolley's stance. Lucian Sunday (talk) 09:54, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I agree. I've provided two references that state "Britain" and "Northern Europe", both of which were reverted by William. The current references provided do not reference the "British Isles". @Willliam, either provide a reference, or please stop reverting the edits. --Bardcom (talk) 11:41, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

So... the anti-British-Isles campaign continues. BC added [1]. Which is teo refs: one to [2]. This is an obviously stupid ref: it contains no dates, and nothing useful at all: just some quotes from Orlando, which is a novel. The second ref is actually to hard data, but unsynthesised data, so its not much use. It also provides no support at all for changing BI into B. Bardcom is not providing sensible refs; he is adopting a politically motivated POV (don't use BI) and propping this up with refs that simply don't justify what he is claiming, if you actually bother to follow the refs William M. Connolley (talk) 12:34, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I suggest that four references to BI and Europe in the second paragraph is completely over the top. Having said that, perhaps someone would like to comment on the quality of this reference - [3]. We surely only need one reference to the severity of the frost and its extent. On which subject, it seems to me that the frost in question was one of the most severe in the British Isles. Apparently it didn't affect Ireland to any great extent, but that's no reason to exclude mention of the British Isles. In such cases one would mention the largest geographical region to which the phenomenon was applicable. As TharkunColl has pointed out elsewhere, we don't say that Everest is the highest mountain in Nepal, even though it is. We look for the largest entity to which the exteme applies - the world in the case of Everest, and the British Isles in the case of the frost in question. CarterBar (talk) 15:58, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

Further note - the reference above may be a subset of one of the four references already given. CarterBar (talk) 16:00, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

I've removed the Time one. That still leaves too many, none of which are really the right ref. Something more general is required. I don't think Wirksworth is any better, though, since its just a list William M. Connolley (talk) 20:24, 13 July 2008 (UTC)

(outdent)Here's a pretty good reference that states England, not British Isles. It's a book called The Climate of Europe, Past, Present, and Future - Natural and Man-induced Climatic Changes: A European perspective and published by the European commission. Page 46. Here's a link: [4] It mentions that the winter of 1683-4 appears as the coldest in the central England record since 1659, though it was probably equalled by the winter of 1607-8 (which may have exceeded it in the Netherlands and Germany). It's also dubious as to where this winter stands in terms of all-time records - many references point to other winters being colder, or as cold. Using the term "British Isles" is incorrect since Irish weather is generally different being directly on the Atlantic front. It's been a number of days now since a reference has been requested, and there are several referencs that either use the term Britain or England. --Bardcom (talk) 21:39, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

This reference seems a little bit open to interpretation; is it talking about the records from Central England or the actual climate in that region? London would not normally be classed as being in Central England, so the frost would appear to have been more extensive, bringing in the SE of England at the very least. CarterBar (talk) 20:39, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I don't think that there's any doubt that the severe winter affected a much greater area than "Central England"; it's just that the so-called "Central England Temperature" record is the only temperature record which we have for any part of Britain that goes back as far as 1683-4. Manley used the shorthand expression Central England to refer to an area which IIRC had London as one of its corners (as someone pointed out earlier on). If you refer to his paper, referenced in the article, you can get further details. JH (talk page) 20:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The "central england temperature" means a specific record, begun by Manley. Its one of the longest "continuous" series available. Ironically, looking for a description of it I came across this [5] Datasets/Regional Climatologies/The British Isles. Ah, but the CET is available from http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/hadleycentre/obsdata/cet.html. See-also Central England temperature William M. Connolley (talk) 20:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

None of these references are in reference to the British Isles for the Great Frost. William, the significance of your 1st reference in relation to Professor Mike Hulme's data escapes me? Unless it's because he actually mentioned the term? The 2nd reference only backs up reasons for using the region of Central England. Give us a clue. --Bardcom (talk) 21:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

The notion that the rest of the British Isles have a completely separate climate to central England is ludicrous. If it was a cold winter on the Thames, it was a cold winter all over the islands. Weather is limited by geography, not politics - so the use of a geographical term (like "British Isles") makes more sense than a political one ("England") in this instance. Waggers (talk) 11:50, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Actually Waggers, that's just not true. It's perfectly possible and not even uncommon for a high pressure over Northern Europe to bring cold continental air over the East of Britain causing sustained sub-zero temperatures (often particularly in the East of England) while North Atlantic low pressure zones simultaneously bring warm rain to Ireland. It's probably less untrue to say that the Netherlands and the East of England share a climate than to say that the East of England and Ireland share a climate. Wotapalaver (talk) 11:13, 25 July 2008 (UTC)

Except that when you look at the two data series "HADobs Central England 1659-present" and "UK surface mean 1914-present" you see that the same UK surface coldest 1963, 1947, 1979, 1940 etc also show up almost in that same order amongst the coldest of the Central England series. Yes, on occasion, it can be warm in Western Scotland and cold in London, but in general and, without exception so far as I can see from the figures, a cold winter (i.e. Dec/Jan/Feb) in London is also a cold winter in Skye. Because 1684 was 0.8 degrees C colder than the next coldest on the CET series, it's perfectly reasonable to assume it was the coldest in the British Isles and probably also in Northern Europe. Laetoli (talk) 13:35, 4 March 2010 (UTC)

Evidence

I find William Connolley's behaviour all the more annoying that, if anybody can provide evidence that this frost extended to say, Wales, Scotland or Ireland it is him. Even a Circumstatial explanation (possibly even a Wiki article) would suffice. My own humble experience this that Britain and Ireland (even London and Manchester) have different weather at the same time. Lucian Sunday (talk) 20:47, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

As I understand it, the frost didn't extend to Ireland, but it was still one of the most severe in the British Isles. We don't have to be totally inclusive when talking of the BI. CarterBar (talk) 20:58, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

So there exists comparative data to confirm your understanding? Lucian Sunday (talk) 21:12, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I haven't seen evidence either way. Records back that far are sparse William M. Connolley (talk) 21:14, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

You've no references to state British Isles? Just want to confirm your position on this...can we revert to using text that has a reference then? --Bardcom (talk) 21:15, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

No William M. Connolley (talk) 21:24, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

This smacks of WP:IDONTLIKEIT to me. Perhaps we should take this to dispute resolution? Do you agree? --Bardcom (talk) 21:27, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

We're going round in circles. IDLI is whats behind your anti-BI campaign, which is where this started. As for DR, how about an RfAr? William M. Connolley (talk) 21:37, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

It is unlikely that the RfAr will be accepted - the consensus appears to be that it is a content dispute issue. I'm editing in a consistent manner - I've explained in a number of places, when asked, as to what policies I try to apply. I now accept that it is regarded as disruptive by many editors. I believe that there are still a great number of articles that incorrectly use the term. You probably believe the opposite. So, what's the solution? What's the best way to resolve this? --Bardcom (talk) 21:44, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Of course you're editing in a consistent manner: you're doing your best to remove "British Isles" from wiki. Thats what we're complaining about. The best way to resolve this would be for you to give up your campaign. This is the same circle again - I must get some cut-n-paste text to avoid the tedium of retyping it William M. Connolley (talk) 07:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

And it bothers you so much that you're not interested in resolving the dispute? You're right - it is the same circle - we try to provide references and discuss the edits, you prefer distract attention for the edit by being rude/personal and ignoring references. There appears to be an impasse here, but maybe not. I suggest we test the consensus with a straw poll. --Bardcom (talk) 12:24, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Evidence of River Liffey Freezing in 1338 -Lucian Sunday (talk) 22:16, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

1740 Evidence of The Great Frost - across the British Isles Lucian Sunday (talk) 23:18, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

I intend to remove these references, and the severest winter on record based on the mean Central England temperature for December to February, and replace with a succinct and WP:Verifiable statement.

the worst ever recorded in southern England

Source:Andrew B. Appleby; Epidemics and Famine in the Little Ice Age; Journal of Interdisciplinary History, Vol. 10, No. 4, History and Climate: Interdisciplinary Explorations (Spring, 1980), pp. 643-663 Lucian Sunday (talk) 23:53, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

(unindent) Manley and the RMetS are impeccable sources. It was not appropriate to remove them. Adding extra sources is fine. Mathsci (talk) 07:27, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I'm unsure why you thought that was going to get consensus, but it didn't. What relevance does the Liffey freezing in 1338 have? William M. Connolley (talk) 07:30, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Perhaps it's intended to show that different things can happen all over the British Isles. It makes sense to me. --Bardcom (talk) 12:09, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

93.107.72.250

I've just blocked 93.107.72.250 as a sock of User:Gold heart. See-also User talk:Alison. 93.107.xxx is banned; all edits can be reverted without counting towards 3rr William M. Connolley (talk) 20:48, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Proposal

There appears to be an impasse on the wording of this sentence: During the Great Frost of (1683–1684), one of the coldest winters recorded in the British Isles and parts of mainland Europe[1][2][3], and the severest winter on record based on the mean Central England temperature for December to February,[4] the Thames was completely frozen for about two months and the ice was reported to be 11 inches (about 28 cm) thick at London.

The objectionable part of the sentence relates to referring to "in the British Isles" for reasons outlined above.

This straw poll is to test for a consensus.

• Option 1 - No change
• Option 2 - Change (to either remove the text, or referencable text)

Please record your choice below with a short reason. Please don't insert comments in the choice section - use the Discussion section instead. --Bardcom (talk) 12:40, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Closed - no consensus

Choice

1. No change - it's clear from User:Lucian Sunday's references above that the 'Great Frost' affected the whole of the British Isles. Waggers (talk) 14:54, 16 July 2008 (UTC)
2. Change - it's clear from User:Lucian Sunday's references above that the 'Great Frost' is a term that only applies to England, that only appears to have measurements from English measurement stations, and that is only referenced in English reports and articles. --Bardcom (talk) 18:32, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Discussion

There shouldn't be a poll over this. This situation most closely parallels the BC/AD or BCE/CE debate ([6]). Finding a reference that uses one or the other doesn't really tell us which way to go (unless maybe a ref talks extensively about both the River Thames frost fairs and the geographical label --which I doubt can be found). The reason I think it most closely parallels the "BC/AD or BCE/CE" debate, is that ultimately the most important idea that came out of it was: use whichever, but don't go around the pedia changing from one to the other --that's disruptive. So it is the same here with "British Isles" or some version of England. R. Baley (talk) 15:22, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. This is not worth the effort. Agendum (talk) 16:10, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed. The amount of time and effort that people have spent on this is disproportionate to something of only marginal relevance to the subject of the article. Whether or not it was a severe winter in Ireland doesn't really matter. That said, I can't resist offering one more reference. In the December, 1975 issue of the journal Weather, published by the RMetS, there is an article by Gordon Manley entitled "1684: The Coldest Winter in the English Instrumental Record". I couldn't find anything in the article about Ireland (or Scotland or Wales), but on page 384 we find: "Over England generally, the coldest winter since the beginning of instrumental observation was that of 1683-4, taking as 'winter' the three months December-February (...Gregorian...calendar). It was appropriately known as 'the Long Frost'; at London the Thames remained passable on foot for seven weeks, 2 January to 20 February. It does not appear that such persistence prevailed in any of the later renowned winters such as 1740 or 1795... For London we have John Downes' daily notes on the weather with thermometer readings... To them we can add the regularly-maintained journals by Gadbury and Ashmole." On page 387 he writes: "We know that severe cold prevailed over much of west Europe; not only the greatest rivers, but the Lake of Constance itself was frozen." JH (talk page) 17:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed, but as with all squabbles that appear petty, they are sometimes elevated into bigger frames of reference that an individual article. Normally it would be enought to ask for a citation or reference, and if none was forthcoming to remove the unsubstantiated claim. In this case, there are a number of editors using this article as a "line in the sand" to object to what they see as the wiping out of the term "British Isles" from all of Wikipedia. Since Wikipedia is not about truth, or being right, but a "consensus", the *only* way to solve this impasse is to test the consensus. It may sarcrifice truth, accuracy and integrity, but who says that's what's important in Wikipedia anyway. And if anyone has a better idea, lets hear it. --Bardcom (talk) 18:31, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Option 2 Change preamble to discuss1740 Great Frost which unquestionable affected the British Isles. Afterall this article is not about 1683 it is about Frost Fairs. Those with a strong attachment to BI will have their wish and Bardcom & WMC can move on to do their (in my opinion) admirable work elsewhere. Option 1 Revert last edit by WMC. To include a (possibly) inaccurate but (certainly) unverified fact for the sake of a quiet life is understandable. I just think it is silly to do so. I am still investigating what was happening in Ireland in 1684 - who knows there might even have been a great frost - but so far the evidence does not support this Lucian Sunday (talk) 19:29, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

I would be very happy with either option, so long as whatever is in the article is in line with WP:VS or consensus. Credit where it's due - nice one Lucian. --Bardcom (talk) 19:55, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Lucian, give me a shout if you need any help with this. --Bardcom (talk) 17:57, 18 July 2008 (UTC)

Agreed - making changes like this is disruptive. I'm glad that Bardcom has agreed with that statement and hopefully his disruptive behaviour will stop here. Waggers (talk) 20:56, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

It's unfortunate (but the reality) that some editors have found my behaviour to be disputive - it was never my intention. I am actively trying to find a better way for each side to understand the other without the drama. --Bardcom (talk) 09:09, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Option 1 and find something more significant than whether the part of the islands closer to the North Pole was colder than the southern part. Maybe so, but apparently a bunch of Thames water was rather cold. -- SEWilco (talk) 04:20, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

Closed - No Consensus --Bardcom (talk) 08:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

References

After all the talk last week, no consensus was reached, and no references have been produced to back up the claim that the Great Frost was one of the worst over the British Isles. Wikipedia policy states that claims must be backed up by references to verifiable sources. The article has been changed according to the best references that have been found. --Bardcom (talk) 08:13, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

William Molyneux's "weather diary"

The first Irish systematic records of temperature were made by William Molyneux, FRS, in 1683-4. He sent his monthly "weather diaries", similar to those published in volume 15 of the Philosophical transactions by John Plot, to William Musgrave, Secretary of the Royal Society. According to the note on Molyneux here, one of the Dublin charts is reproduced in Robert Gunther's "Early Science in Oxford", vol. XII. This would seem to indicate that the charts are still preserved somewhere in Oxford, possibly in the archives of New College, where Musgrave was a fellow. If someone has access to Gunther (eg it's in the reserve collection of the UL in Cambridge), this might help clarify things. Mathsci (talk) 17:49, 22 July 2008 (UTC)

London Bridge allegedly making the river more likely to freeze

There are two references to London Bridge as a contributor to river freezing. Only one of these claims is footnoted, and the provided link does not support the claim. I propose removing these claims. Any objections?

--Fun with aluminum (talk) 03:45, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

I'll try to dig out a better reference, as I've seen it said in a number of books on the British climate. JH (talk page) 10:23, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

Now done. JH (talk page) 10:48, 4 February 2009 (UTC)

The way I read it was that the new London Bridge came at the same time as the new embankments and that the combination of these two events caused the river not to freeze over. It makes sense when you think that new embankments may have narrowed the river and the resulting faster water flow prevents freezing. Generally speaking though, I also believe that global warming (oceans rising) started a lot earlier than we think. Mont Saint Michel in France was kind of an island, now surrounded by water. 58.174.224.3 (talk) 06:29, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

On the contrary, Mont St Michel was only ever cut off at some points in the tide, and the government is now having to spend money to keep it an island at all. Johnbod (talk) 14:23, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

date old London Bridge demolished

In the 'In History' section, the article states, "Furthermore, old London Bridge [...] was pulled down in 1820", and cites Gordon Manley, Climate and the British Scene, Collins, May 1972 edition, p290.

In the 'The last frost fair' section, the article states, "old London Bridge was demolished in 1831", with no citation.

The Wikipedia article on London Bridge for the era [ http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/London_Bridge#.22New.22_.2819th-century.29_London_Bridge ], states, "The old bridge continued in use as the new bridge was being built, and was demolished after the latter opened in 1831", but also gives no citation.

Googling 'old London Bridge demolished' seems to indicate a demolition year of 1831 (though possibly 1830), so it seems that the date given in 'The last frost fair' section is correct -- which means that the only entry which actually has a citation is probably wrong. However, I do not have access to Manley's 'Climate and the Brirish Scene' to verify that citation, and it bothers me that the more probable dates have no citations.

Anyone have any good references to fix this? 71.188.27.77 (talk) 15:09, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

I've done a quick-and-dirty fix from old newspapers. David Trochos (talk) 18:54, 14 June 2009 (UTC)

It was 1831. See The Thames by Jonathan Schneer, which has a good section about frost fairs (pp. 69–80) and the reasons for the river freezing with such regularity (pp. 70–72). I am adding this work as a reference and will cite it as a source for the date, and will try to write something more detailed about the old London Bridge, as this seems to have been a key factor. Agendum (talk) 20:16, 15 June 2009 (UTC)

Article

You'll have seen that I've made some additions, and a few alterations to this article. I hope these meet with contributors' approval. I don't want to give the impression I'm coming in and taking over – clearly this article has been the work of a number of editors over a period of time (including myself, up until April last year). I'm happy to collaborate (which is what Wikipedia isa ll about!)

I see that American spelling is used throughout – does that indicate that some or all of the contributors are from N. America? I thought I should ask before presuming to change it to British spelling.

I have another book somewhere which gives a little more information about this fascinating subject - I'll dig it out and, if appropriate, I'll be able to give a little further contemporary detail about the frost fairs. Cheers, Bruce – Agendum (talk) 07:55, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

I think you've done good work. I'm British myself, but hadn't noticed the American spellings. JH (talk page) 08:49, 17 June 2009 (UTC)

Years when the Thames froze

1783-4 is not listed, but I believe should be. Alpheus (talk) 06:59, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

If you have a citation from what looks like a reliable source, then by all means add it. JH (talk page) 09:22, 11 January 2010 (UTC)

Depth of frost in Manchester & Somerset

Are the quoted depths of 27 inches and four feet (respectively) in the G. Manley ref? If not, then perhaps we need {{cn}} tags. (I'll try to skim through that ref at some point, but I can't now - and I thought someone here may know the answer anyway.) --Trevj (talk) 09:53, 20 September 2011 (UTC)

Contradiction

The first sentence of the lead and the first sentence of the section "The first frost fairs" seem to disagree about which century saw the fiest frost fair. JH (talk page) 09:55, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

I think the apparent contradiction arises because parts of the article conflate actual frost fairs with other (earlier) occasions on which the Thames had frozen enough for activities to occur on the ice. Best, nancy 10:11, 8 August 2012 (UTC)

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"Vendors"

I wonder if we are exaggerating a little. We say The first known frost fair on the River Thames was in AD 695, although it was not known by the title of frost fair. The river froze over for six weeks. Vendors set up booths on the frozen river in which they sold goods. This is sourced to page 176144 of a book written in 1835 by Thomas Tegg, and he says "the Thames frozen for six weeks, when booths were built on it". Were there really "vendors" in England 1300 years ago? Is it possible it was just people sharing food or beer or something? We seem to be reading between the lines here. —Soap— 17:36, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

I have a suspicion that the "695" in Tegg's book might have been a simple typo for "1695", when we know that there definitely was a frost fair. Unless an alternative, independent source can be found, I'd be inclined to omit the mention of 695 altogether. JH (talk page) 10:14, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

That sounds plausible, though I'll mention a point in favor, namely that the mention of the year 695 appears in a paragraph in which the events are listed chronologically. It's on page 144, not 176 (the 176 is just part of the URL). If it was an error it would likely have been a handwritten one originally. —Soap— 12:36, 24 March 2020 (UTC)