Talk:Richard Jenne

T4

I reverted an edit, and I was reverted. We need a citation that Jenne was killed under T4. As I understand it, the Nazi's killed many people in many ways. There is probably clarification elsewhere in the book, so we would need another citation to another page, but page 163 does not say he was killed under T4. Jesanj (talk) 16:47, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Hey sir, I already indicated that the reference is pretty clear. I will quote it here:

“ On 29 May, 1945, "fully thirty three days after American troops had occupied Kaufbeuern [...] Twenty-one days after Germany's unconditional surrender, Richar Jene, just four years old, became the last victim of the euthanasia killers. _{The Origins of Nazi Genocide: From Euthanasia to the Final Solution By Henry Friedlander, page 163} ”

and it is correborated by this source:

“ On May 29, 1945, four-year-old, Richard Jene became the last official victim of Nazi euthanasia._{Forgotten crimes: the Holocaust and people with disabilities, page 93} ”

So please stop your disruptive revertings as I have already indicated clearly that the refernce from page 163 of Friedlander was pretty clear. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 21:34, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

How is it disruptive to make sure we follow WP:V? Your quotes above do not say T4. I bet there were lots of "euthanasia" programs that the Nazis used. We need a source to let us know Jenne indeed died under T4. Do you disagree? Jesanj (talk) 22:19, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Sir, you firstly should inform yourself. The name T4 was name not used by the nazis, that was a name introduced after the WWII, and became used for some historians and authors (take a look at the german euthanasia were it is explained and documented). The code names used by the nazis for the euthanasia program were EU-aktion an E-Aktion. In some documents as the Hitler decree they refer to "mercy killing" (gnadentod) aktion. At the Nuremberg trials it was called by everybody as euthanasia program. The euthanasia program started with the killing of children and fallowed with the killing of adults. There were euthanasia of patients in Germany but also at hospitals and asylums in Austria, etc. But, again: AktionT4 and also euthanasia program is a term introduced after the WWII to refer to all these euthanasias (see this at page 66). And if you would did your homework to really verify the source you would realize that the title of the chapter of the second reference is "The T4 adult euthanasia porgram"[1]. Stop your warring reverting. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 23:54, 25 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation but maybe you should "focus on improving the encyclopedia itself, rather than demanding more from other Wikipedians." People don't have to be experts in a topic to edit a page. Jesanj (talk) 00:18, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Your last comment is what we call here "un ladrón bufón" (a burglar playing also as a buffoon). You are precisely the one demanding sources and verifiability while you do not read nor verify the sources. It seems you do not even know enough about this topic, you should keep aside of edit the article and firstly ask whatever you want here at the talk page, but at any rate before asking or commenting, you perhaps would find useful to read more about.

Currently you are not improving nothing nor contributing with nothing but just damaging the thing. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 01:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Using the word "buffoon" in relation to another editor is an egregious personal attack. I encourage Jesanj to pursue this at wp:ANI. Jabbsworth (talk) 01:42, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

I expressively said that I was referring to his comment, not to him. It is a sort of adage or proverb in spanish to describe that situation. We also have another adage used here to describe that sort of situation, when someone accuses someone else of doing exactly the same that the first one is doing. We say "un burro hablando de orejas ("a donky speaking about ears"). It is nothing ironic that these adages possibly fit for the current situation of you accusing me of PA, while you Jabbsworth should concentrate on your current case of Personal Attack opened by another user. An user who feels personally attacked by you, although in the recent past you Jabbswroth used to support him and also you used to encourage him to proceed with WP:ANI against me. What a serial behaviour. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 02:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Inappropriately long piped link & POV

As I demonstrated with a source, there is no consensus to call Action T4 euthanasia in a simple, matter-of-fact manner as the article currently does with its piped link. (In fact we are told to "avoid making links longer than necessary".) Involuntary euthanasia is typically referred to as murder,[2] the BBC suggests. It is POV to refer to T4 as euthanasia in this way. Jesanj (talk) 00:28, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Euthanasia Program is the term used to refer to this. And the article is not arguing it is or it is not euthanasia. This is a generically common name.[3][4][5][6][7][8][9][10][11][12][13][14][15][16][17] Read WP:COMMONNAME. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 01:00, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Euthanasia Program appears to only be a term for Action T4. It's a redirect to Action T4 (recently created by you) but that appears to be OK, in my view, because redirects don't have to be neutral. Because Action T4 is the article title, I assume it is the common name, as WP:COMMONNAME is for Wikipedia:Article titles. Again, "avoid making links longer than necessary". A policy on titles isn't going to override instructions on links. If you want to rename Action T4 as Euthanasia Program, that's a separate matter entirely. Jesanj (talk) 16:56, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

CS, you went the anti-Wiki way. You made the piped link even longer.[18] Jesanj (talk) 20:09, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Not longer. -- ClaudioSantos¿? 04:09, 27 July 2011 (UTC)