Talk:Renault 4CV

Porsche

Famous father and son Porsche had been jailed for using humans as a slaves during World War II. Older Ferdinand Porsche and his son Ferdinand Porshe-mladshego have arrested December 15, 1945. They were accused of using the labor of prisoners of war. But already in 1946, Ferdinand Porshe-mladshego released from prison. According to rumors, he is paid for the drawings for a new car, which later became known as Renault 4CV. And in February 1947, resigned to freedom and Senior Ferdinand Porsche. -- Roman Shayduk — Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.174.130.61 (talk)

Two quatre pattes factoids

In my 4CV (my first car), the front seats were secured only by a wing nut so that you could take them out to use as seating for your picnic.

And the lack of synchromesh on first gear led 4CV drivers to learn to double-declutch, also known as a racing change, to get into first. It's still fun and sometimes even useful to be able to do that.

Awien (talk) 12:39, 12 May 2011 (UTC)

Pronunciation

From the time of Malherbe in the 18th century, "on écrit quatre chevaux & l'on prononce quat - chevaux" [1], to the nineteen-fifties, the heyday of the car by that name, when Camille François transcribed its name as "quat'chevaux" [2], the "re" in quatre chevaux has been elided in pronunciation. It is not up to Anglophones to be second-guessing the French on how to pronounce their language. Awien (talk) 14:57, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

This was removed in 2013 by CplDHicks (talk · contribs), "replaced very rough pronunciation guide with IPA". You remonstrated with them then: [3]. Despite your claim today, "restore unexplained removal of orthographic transcription of quatre chevaux" this was far from "unexplained".

I have no axe to grind with IPA. Take it up at Help talk:IPA for French if you want to talk to the IPA afficionados here. I see two issues though:

• We work widely with IPA here. We link the symbology for it to a pronunciation key, reviewed by those knowledgeable in the field. The IPA used is well-defined and well-structured. We generally consider this to be adequate and appropriate.
• Your "CAT shu VOH" is a fragment of text dumped into the article with no annotation, certainly no use of the {{respell}} template. It may be a correct pronunciation in your reading voice, but a different accent may change this significantly. Unlike IPA, this isn't standardised. I can't see either need for it, nor virtue in having it. Andy Dingley (talk) 14:59, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Hicks's objection was not to respelling as such, it was to the pronunciation itself, due to the fact that they were mispronouncing quatre chevaux. Once I was able to prove that to them, they ceased to object.

Maybe your objection is similarly based on the same mispronunciation? As you see above, the "re" is silent, and that being the case, the respelling CAT shu VOH (while admittedly not in accord with the WP template) yields a fair approximation of the actual pronunciation in all the varieties English I can "visualise" off the bat.

IPA is great, but supplementing it with a more accessible respelling is expressly permitted by the MOS, regardless of your personal preferences. If you think you can improve the respelling, please do so. By merely removing it you are reducing the usefulness and accessibility of the information.

I ask you again to please revert yourself, or re-add a potentially improved version.

Awien (talk) 17:28, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

(adds) Ok, I've been reading the MOS etc., and the policy in a nutshell is to give the IPA, to which may be added anything that works, up to and including "rhymes, sound-alikes, or {{USdict}} transcription". A very far cry from IPA only. Awien (talk) 23:36, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

In light of the above, I am re-adding the respelled pronunciation. Your preference for the IPA alone doesn't trump the fact that the MOS expressly permits the addition of any aid to pronunciation that works, so please don't remove it again. Thank you, Awien (talk) 16:06, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

It is inappropriate (and proscribed in our MoS) to provide English-based respelling for non-English terms. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 17:09, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Ƶ§œš, that is simply not true. You need to read the above, and the MOS, which expressly allows for supplementing the IPA with respelling, sound-alikes, etc. Awien (talk) 17:46, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Can we please stop wasting time on trying to remove a useful piece of information from the encyclopedia on a supposed technicality that actually isn't even a policy? Surely we all have better things to do. Awien (talk) 17:52, 18 November 2015 (UTC)

Removed per WP:Manual of Style/Pronunciation#Other transcription systems, which says "For other languages, only the IPA should be used, as respellings are inadequate to convey them. If a respelling is given for a Welsh or Māori name, the implication is that this is the English pronunciation, so it should follow the English IPA transcription, not the Welsh or Māori.". Peter238 (talk) 00:44, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

So. We had an article about a car whose name is very frequently mispronounced by Anglophones. To help them, the correct pronunciation was provided in both IPA and orthographic transcription.

Along comes Andy Dingley, initially misreading the situation, and one thing leading to another, a pair of enforcers shows up to impose a supposed IPA-only “rule” for pronunciation.

Now, the MOS not only doesn’t forbid using ad hoc means of conveying pronunciation, the whole document is prefaced by the injunction to apply its guidelines with common sense.

Rounding percentages to the nearest whole number, we have now gone from a pronunciation guide useful to 100% of Anglophones to one useful to 0%.

To render our encyclopedia less useful to readers in this way totally defies the common sense we were enjoined to apply.

Badly done, Andy, Aeusoes1, and Peter238.

Although of course it’s not too late for you to back off and let common sense prevail.

Awien (talk) 14:33, 19 November 2015 (UTC)

 Andy Dingley:  Aeusoes1:  Peter238: Here is the specific reference spelling out the accepted guidelines for conveying pronunciation. I have bolded the part that says we should use anything that works alongside the IPA.

From the Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style/Pronunciation, I quote:

"That the IPA is inaccessible to the layman, and that therefore for a quick guide to the pronunciation of Wikipedia entry words we should use pronunciation respellings such as proh-NUN-see-AY-shun. However, such respellings are inaccessible to the non-native English speaker, who generally is familiar with the IPA. There is wide agreement that respellings are acceptable, but should be used in addition to the IPA. To this end, any verbal description or "sound-alike" guide may be used, but there is also a standardized format at Wikipedia:Pronunciation respelling key."

Awien (talk) 03:03, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

From WP:MOS/P (quoted again for redundancy):

For other languages, only the IPA should be used, as respellings are inadequate to convey them. If a respelling is given for a Welsh or Māori name, the implication is that this is the English pronunciation, so it should follow the English IPA transcription, not the Welsh or Māori.

Respellings should be given along with English IPA transcriptions, again, per MOS/P:

For English words, transcriptions based on English spelling ("pronunciation respellings") such as proh-NUN-see-AY-shən (using {{respell}}) may be used, but only in addition to the IPA ({{IPA-en}} or {{IPAc-en}}).

Pretty clear-cut. The best solution IMHO is to add English IPA and, if desired, a respelling pronunciation as well — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 06:27, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

I agree, of course, but will leave any tweaks to the IPA to the experts. Awien (talk) 11:55, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Done. Peter238 (talk) 17:37, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

 Peter238:  Kwamikagami:  Aeusoes1:  Andy Dingley: To repeat yet again, the pronunciation of quatre chevaux eliding the "re" of quatre is the actual, real, correct, French pronunciation. I repeat yet again the references that I gave in the very first sentence of this section: From the time of Malherbe in the 18th century, "on écrit quatre chevaux & l'on prononce quat - chevaux" [4], to the nineteen-fifties, the heyday of the car by that name, when Camille François transcribed its name as "quat'chevaux" [5], the "re" in quatre chevaux has been elided in pronunciation. Please fix accordingly. Awien (talk) 19:10, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Ok, I fixed accordingly. Please do not change without consulting the refs. Thank you. Awien (talk) 19:31, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

That's not a fix - what has to follow the French name is the French IPA, not English. The user who added [ʁə] to the first word was Kwami, so you should talk to him. I don't know whether [ʁə] should be there or not. Peter238 (talk) 19:43, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Peter, you mean well, but please read the first sentence of this section. Quatre chevaux, pronounced CAT shu VOH, is the correct pronunciation of the French name of this car. Anglophones probably say four see vee. Please self-revert. Awien (talk) 19:57, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Sorry, I didn't see this discussion. Will revert myself. Question: is it /kat.ʃəvo/ with a syllable break between the /t/ and the /ʃ/?

And I agree: we'd need a ref that "4CV" is pronounced /kæt.ʃəˈvoʊ/ in English before we claim it is.

Awien, not sure what you were referring to when you said "agreed". Ƶ§œš¹ is right that we can't respell French (or any other language) in English unless it's actually established in English, in which case it would be the English pronunciation we're transcribing, not the French. For any language other than English the only options are the IPA and respelling in that language: e.g. we could say "pronounced quat'chevaux". I'll assume that works for you and add it to the lead. (Please revert if you don't like it, but we shouldn't mix English and French.) — kwami (talk) 20:07, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

HI, Kwami. Didn't we meet around some Hawai'i articles long ago? Anyway, the present version (with quat'chevaux) is fine by me. Thanks. Awien (talk) 20:40, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

Hi Awien. I think so. I know I've seen you around. — kwami (talk) 20:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

@Aeusoes1:, this is a situation I don't remember coming across before, not exactly, and I think it makes an excellent example that we could use to clarify the MOS. We currently don't say anything about descriptions in other languages, leaving that to common sense (which is dangerous), and while an actual French etc. respelling (with the need for a French etc. respelling key) would be impractical, an explanation like "pronounced quat'chevaux" is IMO even better than the IPA, and in any case isn't spurious the way an English respelling of French would be. I added it to the MOS as an example. See what you think. We might want to move that paragraph down to after the paragraph on doing this with English pronunciations. — kwami (talk) 20:45, 23 November 2015 (UTC)

It's an interesting idea, possibly lending itself towards a pandora's box. But I don't think it's working, at least not yet. It still looks like English respelling. What about:

The Renault 4CV (French: quatre chevaux, pronounced [kat.ʃəvo], as if spelled quat'chevaux)

I could see this solution working for only a handful of languages, and would probably have limited utility outside of readers marginally familiar with a given language's orthography. FWIW, wiktionary lists [kat] as a possible pronunciation of quatre. — Ƶ§œš¹ _{[lɛts b̥iː pʰəˈlaɪˀt]} 02:44, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

And helpfully links to the Trésor de la langue française informatisé which explains: Dans un usage pop. et fam. dep. le xviies. dans le groupe final cons. + r ou l + [ə], amuïssement de [ə] et de la liquide précédente sous l'effet de la mollesse articulatoire. ,,Au xixesiècle, la prononc. quat(re), not(re), vot(re), aut(re), guêt(res) etc. (surtout devant un mot à initiale consonantique, par ex. quat'sous, maît'd'hôtel, mais aussi en fin de phrase: ils sont quat') a même cessé d'être blâmée`` (Straka ds Trav. Ling. Litt. Strasbourg t. 19 n o1 1981, p. 191). A grammarian, a poet, and the most authoritative dictionary. How about a blogger too? [6] Awien (talk) 03:45, 24 November 2015 (UTC)

Chevaux Valeur... er no... it's vapeur

CV is usually chevaux vapeur (steam horsepower) and not valeur (value) I googled chevaux valeur and it gave me links about the value of horses, and betting on horse races. Nothing relevant to the claimed tax value. CV is https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheval-vapeur ... ah... but there is a link to CV as fiscal horses ( https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cheval_fiscal ) which describes how registration cost varies by the horse power of the vehicle being registered. So it can be used in both a raw horse power and a fiscal way, but I still can find no occurrence of the term cheval valeur.