Talk:Renaissance/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Archive 5

More on 'causes'

I do not like the term 'causes' since it seems to suggest that one or the other led directlty to the Renaissance. The term should be 'contributing factors'or 'contextual considerations.' The 'great man argument' is not a cause but a historical argument, and a not very good one at that. 'The Balck Pague theory' is not a 'theory' it was a real event the economic impact of which has been discussed by historians as playing an impotrant part in the economics of th erly renaisance. etc. ANyway.. the whole section needs to get redone and put in a more scholarly-professional tone.Brosi 13:55, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

The big problem

The BIG problem though is that this article is about the Italian Renaissance and overlapps with the site Italian Renaissance which is better organized etc.. This site, should be more generally about the renaissance and various renaissances. i.e. it should be MUCH shorter.We can fiddle with this page all we want but if it overlapps with Italian Renaissance then we are doing a diservice to the users.Brosi 14:00, 3 January 2007 (UTC)

School of Athens

"Raphael was famous for depicting illustrious figures of the Classical past with the features of his Renaissance contemporaries. The School of Athens (above) is perhaps the most extended study in this."

This is an exaggeration. Raphael was famous for portraits and Madonnas. He did, however, execute a number of frescoes at the Vatican in which he portrayed Pope Leo X as an earlier Pope and, in another fresco, Pope Julius II observing a scene from antiquity. The School of Athens is remarkable in its extensive depiction of contemporaries, rather than being something that Raphael was, in general, known for.

--Amandajm 12:07, 6 January 2007 (UTC)

Wiedererwachung or Wiedererwachsung

In the historiography part -- Yes Wiedererwachung is correct, (i.e. rebirth) BUT the source here - a book by the eminent Erwin Panofsky - sais Wiedererwachsung (which of course means something a bit different: 're-growth' or something to taht effect) p. 8. Renaissacne and Renascences. So what to do? Should we go with the assumption that the source made the error?Brosi 15:13, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Vandalism

This page receives so much vandalism - is there any way to put a block on the page!Brosi 20:33, 24 January 2007 (UTC)

Just put in a request for semi-protection. --Ashfire908 15:32, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Looks like the request was approved. The article is now semi-protected. "(Protected Renaissance: Heavy vandalism from multiple sources. [edit=autoconfirmed:move=autoconfirmed] (expires 15:43, 24 March 2007 (UTC)))" --Ashfire908 16:52, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Renaissance technology

Surfing through the topics, I realized that we still have no survey article about "Renaissance technology", though we already have one on "Medieval technology". This is really a deficit, since a wealth of exciting technological developments took place in the Renaissance like

• patent laws
• linear perspectivity
• printing press
• bastion
• new and more powerful hoisting machines
• new and more powerful cannon
• double shell domes and many others

And we have those famous artist-engineers like Taccola, Keyser or daVinci whose drawings show the whole range of technology then. So, why don't we create a new topic called 'Renaissance technology'? Gun Powder Ma 12:38, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Good source of information

Hey, I found this site just a bit ago and it has a lot of information on the Renaissance. It's in PDF format: Compendium. There is problay some useful information there. --Ashfire908 14:31, 6 March 2007 (UTC)

Found another source. It was used in 1550-1600 in fashion, and is very long, but does have a lot of information. Here is the link. --Ashfire908 13:27, 15 March 2007 (UTC)

Conservapedia

To anyone who's interested, Andy Schlafly, the founder of Conservapedia, was on the BBC morning radio in England Today 7 March 2007, 8:16am (archived at http://www.bbc.co.uk/radio4/today/listenagain/ ) singling out this article in particular as being too full of liberal bias and for having all his contributions deleted. He also said the quantity of European spellings present showed that it was anti-American.Goatchurch 11:05, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

European spellings?? In an article on a European phenomenon? Imagine! LOL.

I don't see any contributions from Andysch (talk • contribs) in the history. Did he say what his username was? I'd love to see what was "deleted."

For what it's worth, I think the article does need a bit more expansion and explanation, preferably from someone with a broad historical expertise (my own expertise is rather focused on musicology .... er, is that "focussed"?) Cheers, Antandrus (talk) 16:47, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Sounds like he was driven off Wikipedia. That is a good sign things are working well. -- Stbalbach 18:38, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

It is peculiar that some of his claims are indeed valid. Regardless, I believe that this article was done well and with excellent collaboration. These are the type of encyclopedic articles which I believe gain Wikipedia its earned respect. 70.121.163.4 15:26, 17 March 2007 (UTC)

The funny British spelling issue aside, it is a serious claim, and one I can understand well being a conservative but loving Wikipedia. Just take a look at Joseph McCarthy or Paul Wolfowitz and you will see what horrible left-wing sink holes they are. Christianity and its influence in the Renaissance should be included and conservatives should be invited to participate, since we are supposed to be building a neutral point of view encyclopedia. Just thought I'd share :) Judgesurreal777 21:29, 29 March 2007 (UTC)

The Renaissance as a historical age

This article refers to the Renaissance as a historical age, both in its introduction and the section of the same name. However, I think this might be quite an outmoded way of describing the Renaissance (as is evidenced by the 19th century works cited by that section). I'm only an undergraduate, but in all of the works I've read, it is described as a cultural movement, seperate from a historical age (I suppose it straddled the middle ages and the early modern period). Would anyone object to me changing the article to reflect these views? Tommaisey 18:09, 7 March 2007 (UTC)

Ottoman ban on books?

I recently watched a 5 part BBC4 documentary called "Civilisation: Is the west history?". It talks about the fall of the Ottomans after the seige of Vienna (it doesn't specifically mention Vienna, but most historians would consider this a turning point). In particular, the border Austria then had with the Ottomans where they were said to have said (scholars can correct me on this quote from memory):

 "A drop of ink on a scroll is worth more than 1000 drops of blood of a soldier".

In other words, books were banned. So scrolls were happily going west from the Ottoman Empire into Austria, but books weren't going the other way because they were banned.

This was narrated by Niall Ferguson (the one listed in wikipedia) who narrated the show. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.97.48.95 (talk) 21:43, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

Draft of proposed major revision - comments & help needed

Okay. I'm quite new to Wikipedia, but I thought this article could really do with a lot of work, considering it's such a big topic. So, I went ahead and did some of it (someone told me to be bold...). The work I've done currently sits as a draft in my userspace, here. Here are some main points about what I've done:

• Much, or most, of the current article is incorporated into the new draft. I have also added a good amount of writing of my own, which for the most part is referenced well.
• Much of the work I did was simply in restructuring. As the article stands now, I think the structure makes little sense.
• Concerns raised by Andy Schlafly, the founder of Conservapedia, about the lack of focus on religion's part in the Renaissance, have to some extent been addressed. Although humanism did give greater emphasis to secular matters, it is quite true that Christianity played a huge role in shaping the Renaissance. However, the article's section on the Renaissance and religion is currently a stub, to be developed later.
• More emphasis has been given to the role of Islamic scholars in preserving and developing ideas from classical antiquity.
• I have spent some time verifying existing sections, increasing the number of references from 6 to 24.
• Almost all the sections need considerable expansion. The following sections need significant work on them before they'll be even close to ready:
  • Social and political structures in Italy.
  • Science
  • Religion
• The "Historiography of the Renaissance" section in particular needs more body, since as discussed below, this article should really be about the Renaissance as a general concept, not as a narrative or account of any particular country.
• There are some parts of the current article not yet merged with the draft, that can be found on the talk page.

I really must emphasise that this is just a skeleton, but I hope it can give us the structure on which to build a featured article. I have put a good number of hours into this draft; I hope you'll see the logic in the structure I've tried to make.

So, I would really appreciate some comments, and, if you feel like it, some collaboration on the draft. Does the structure make sense to you? Should there be more emphasis on any particular section? Have I missed bits out? Is it all rubbish and I should go away? Thanks, MAIS-talk-contr 02:41, 22 March 2007 (UTC)

Ok, I haven't had any feedback about this. In the meantime, I've continued to improve my draft. It now has 35 references (41 if you count refs used twice). The sections have grown, and there's been some improvement in most of them. So, I'm now going to merge my draft with the main article. Cheers, MAIS-talk-contr 01:20, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

On the basics

Why does this entire article imply that both Greek and Latin texts were lost in the West and were revived during the renaissance? This is true only for Greek texts, which were lost after the fall of the Roman Empire in late antiquity (due to the fact that Latins stopped speaking Greek and the untranslated Greek texts were no longer understood). To claim that Latin texts were rediscovered is quite absurd. "Having a new interest on the study of ancient Roman texts" is one thing, but repeatedly claim that the renaissance was about the revival of ancient Roman and Greek texts gives simply a wrong idea about the article's topic. Miskin 09:37, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Ok, maybe the article generalises a bit too much - I'll change that. But it's not absurd to claim that some important Latin texts were lost. What about De architectura? It wasn't lost per se, but few people knew of its existence or significance until Poggio Bracciolini found it in a monastic library in Switzerland. —The preceding unsigned comment was added by Tommaisey (talk • contribs) 16:12, 11 April 2007 (UTC).

I'll give my thoughts on this for as far as Latin literature is concerned. Beginning with Petrarch in the first half of the 14th century, the works of the pagan authors came to be studied for their own sake instead of as an auxiliary discipline subordinated to theology, as was done in the (clerical) intellectual environment of the Middle Ages. The humanists took authors like the pagan Cicero, and not the church father Jerome, as their examples in matters of style, language and philosophy and other things that they were primarily concerned about. They tried to purge the Latin language, which they considered polluted by hundreds of years of wrong usage, of medieval 'barbarisms' in order to revive the Classical Latin of the ancient Roman authors. As is said above, humanists like Poggio actively traveled around Europe in search for more classical texts, and when they found them they made them known to a much greater public than had been the case before. My point is: while many works of the ancient Roman authors were not literally 'lost', they were not known to the general (intellectual) public; for instance, there was only one Catullus manuscript which was kept at Verona and was 'discovered' in the 14th century (and then lost and rediscovered in the 15th). The renewed interest gave such texts a much wider circulation and made them much more influential, than they had previously been. Latin itself was 'revived' insofar as the humanists tried to restore the Classical Latin of the ancients. (Ironically, in doing so they made it so rigid that they actually 'killed' it, in a way.) So in my opinion, it is not so much about Latin and Roman authors itself as it is about Classical Latin and its non-Christian Roman authors. In this way it would be accurate to speak of a 'revival' of classical Roman/Latin texts, some of which had been 'lost', as in 'unknown'; this being, of course, a figure of speech. Iblardi 21:03, 13 April 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. Perhaps we should edit down the above to include in the article for clarification? MAIS-talk-contr 17:26, 14 April 2007 (UTC)

Lots of copy edits

I have gone through the article section by section and tried to clean up problems with spelling, grammar, clarity, etc. If I've mucked up any meanings/sense, etc., go ahead and fix it - I've done the edits by section so it can be more easily reviewed by other editors. Someone might want to change the few American spellings to British, since the latter predominate in most of the article. - Special-T 17:27, 20 April 2007 (UTC)

Constant drizzle of school-boy vandalism

I have more edits to this article than any other on Wikipedia--about 500--and just about all of them are vandalism reverts. Every day it is hit by graffiti, scribbles, and schoolboy obscenities. I have no idea why it is such a target. Should it be semi-protected long-term? Have there been any high-quality anonymous contributions? Anyone have an opinion? Antandrus (talk) 20:19, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

Of course, this article and many other high profile "high-school topic" articles get hit daily Crusades, Black Death, Feudalism -- I've tried in the past to get some sort of permanent semi-protection but have never had much luck. Black Death was just semi-protected today, you might ask the admin what he thinks of this article while he is at it. These articles have reached a point of maturity and sophistication it is rare an anon really adds something good, we mostly spend (waste) time keeping out the barbarians. -- Stbalbach 21:37, 30 April 2007 (UTC)

I'm in favour of semi-protecting good but commonly vandalised pages. --3DS Mike

Perhaps this "anon" would like to add something useful in that printing was not the significant invention for the Renaissance but rather the movable type which is the important invention. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.197.62.38 (talk) 20:04, 4 January 2010 (UTC)

This needs to be protected, it is still being vandalised all the time. MR D —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.67.119.240 (talk) 11:47, 19 November 2010 (UTC)

Intro Paragraphs

It seems to me that the second portion of the intro paragraph, the one discussing the validity of the term, is somewhat out of place. It seems that there could be a "Conflict over the term Renaissance" section, because the intro is meant to give a basic summary of the article, not a basic summary and then a very specific and slightly irrelevant aside about the terminology. That's more appropriate later else, I think. 70.108.216.222 03:17, 8 May 2007 (UTC)

There is a "Conflict over the term Renaissance" section, but it's named the historiography section. I don't think the second para is out of place (then again, I wrote it...) since it is a major concern when considering the "Renaissance" period, and as a historical debate, it's central to our understanding of the word. mais ^(talk) 12:54, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

GA Review

Very good article with good prose, however there are a few referencing issues that will put it on hold until they are resolved. The following sentences/paragraphs need a reference owing to the use of words such as 'others' and 'likely'.

• The Renaissance's emergence in Italy was most likely the result of the complex interaction of the above factors.

   Done: Added reference to J. Brotton, The Renaissance: A Very Short Introduction.

• Arguing that such chance seems improbable, other historians have contended that these "Great Men" were only able to rise to prominence because of the prevailing cultural conditions at the time.

   Done: Added reference to John Stephens, The Italian Renaissance: The origins of intellectual and artistic change before the Reformation.

• Regardless, there is general agreement that the Renaissance saw significant changes in the way the universe was viewed and the methods with which philosophers sought to explain natural phenomena.

   Done: Added reference to J. Brotton, The Renaissance: A Very Short Introduction.

• 2nd and 3rd paragraphs of the science section.

   Done: Added reference to J. Brotton, The Renaissance: A Very Short Introduction.

• Last paragraph of the 'For better or worse' section.

   Done: Added reference to S. Greenblatt, Renaissance Self-Fashioning: From More to Shakespeare.

When these issues are repaired, I will pass the article. Zeus1234 16:26, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

I went to library and got a few books out. I have referenced all the bits you asked. My next task is to improve the historiography section, after which I think it could be ready for FAC. Cheers mais ^(talk) 14:50, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

GA, but...

A number of significant errors and omissions in the department of Art and Architecture.

• Why was Durer cited by the writer as a prime example of an artist who tried to paint in a naturalistic manner? He post-dates Masaccio, Ghirlandaio, Leonardo, van der Goes, Messina, Bellini etc etc. Moreover, while some of his work is naturalistic, much of it is highly mannered and represents radical departure from human anatomy.
• Raphael was not well known for depicting his contemporaries in Classical guises. Raphael was well known for his comtemporary portraiture and his sweet Madonnas. The School of Athens is the exception, not the rule in Raphael's painting. The info that appeared in the box with the pic. was simply wrong. I have corrected the identical misleading statement elsewhere, buut perhaps it is attached to the pic at WkiCommons so that it keeps getting quoted. (The artist who frequently portrayed contemporaries in historic settings (Christian rather than Classical) was Ghirlandaio.)
• The introduction of "Renaissance painting" to Northern Europe? No. By about 1430, that is only 3 years after Masaccio's experimental painting of the Trinity in Santa Maria Novella, Jan van Eyck had a pretty good handle on linear perspective, and a vastly superior technique at landscape than any Italian contemporary.
• When Hugo van der Goes took the Portinari Altarpiece to Florence in the 1470s, the effect that it on realistic portraiture was dynamic.
• Architecture. Yes, Brunelleschi knew Vitruvius' work. but it is very simplistic to imagine it was the whole source of the revolution which Brunelleshi created in architecture, almost single handed. The significant factor is not so much that he knew Vitruvius as that he knew and studied the works of ancient Rome with a passion, as did the assistant on his "digs", Donatello. The writings of Vitruvius no doubt consolidated and informed Brunelleschi's vision, as his treatise owes much to Vitruvius.
• No discussion of the art of the Renaissance can simply omit Michelangelo!
• No discussion of the architecture of the Renaissance, regardless of how brief, can cite only the Dome of Florence which is not even Renaissance in style, regardless of its technology. St Peter's sums it all up.

I've made good the errors and ommissions.

--Amandajm 06:48, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Thank you very much. I have been trying to get this article up to scratch over the last month, but I readily confess that art and architecture (which are a very large part of what the Renaissance is about) are not my specialities. It would really really help if you could help to build up the article's art sections, since you are obviously much more knowledgable on that front than I am! This is an important and highly visible topic that needs to be covered well. A couple of replied points:

• I cited Durer because I wanted to emphasise that this article is about the whole European Renaissance, not just the Italian Renaissance (which has a separate article). I am therefore trying to use examples from all over Europe. Are there any other non-Italian painters we could use to illustrate this point?
• On Raphael, I am aware that this was the case, the bits you mention are left over from the article as it was before, and I forgot to correct them.
• Just plain "oops" on Michelangelo!

Cheers for the help mais ^(talk) 15:53, 20 May 2007 (UTC)

Unfortunately unless an expert on the topic reviews the article, there is simply no way to make a judgement on the article as to whether it adequately covers the topic. Nevertheless, these seem to be rather minor issues that can be easily repaired.Zeus1234 01:45, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Sorry for being so rude, mais! You have taken it with remarkably good grace!

• Durer, and realism. I think in this instance, you need to cite the Italian, because the main influence really sprang from Italy. They took in everything that the Northern painters had to offer, combined it with what they had, and then it was spewed out again by artists like Leonardo, Michelangelo, Raphael, Titian, Caravaggio who completely changed the course of art. Masaccio is the right person. Durer definitely isn't. The impact of Masaccio went out in waves for generations.

In reply to Zeus, mostly minor, and a couple of major.

--Amandajm 07:42, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

Flabbergasted!

I just looked up Renaissance painting and it led me to Early Renaissance painting which has a number of useful lists and a smidgeon of information. It directs to Northern Renaissance painting which has an article. I find it hard to believe that Wikipedia really does not have an article on the painting of the Italian Renaissance... Oh well... there will be soon. --Amandajm 08:01, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

For anyone who's looking for this, Amandajm has created 2 great articles, at Italian Renaissance painting and Italian Renaissance painting, development of themes. That second one may undergo a name change, however. mais ^(talk) 10:36, 6 June 2007 (UTC)

Croatia

Croatia had rich Renaissance and should be added to region list.

At this time Croatia was part of the Hungarian Kingdom, which is mentioned in the article, but you're right that Eastern and Central Europe need more emphasis and mention in this article. At the moment it's a bit too Italy based. mais ^(talk) 01:21, 14 June 2007 (UTC)

Eastern (or Orthodox christian) Europe hadn't renaissance. Please don't use old Cold-war era political terms for the definition Eastern Europe for Central European (Catholic-protestant) countries. Thanks! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 84.2.167.130 (talk) 10:43, 13 August 2011 (UTC)

Science

While it is true that Galileo had his run-ins with the Catholic Church, Copernicus was encouraged by the Church to release his theory. Ironically, the Church's main disagreement with both men was their lack of evidence, while the author of this piece has decided to state that they helped create scientific theory based on empirical evidence. The Church disagreed with teaching unsubstantiated theory as fact. This is in keeping with the scientific method. To imply that the Church is against the scientific method is untrue. Moreover, the writings of Copernicus were immediately made heretical by the early Protestant churches, while receiving support from the Catholic Church. It is likely that both men and their ideas would have faired even worse elsewhere. A rewrite of the Science section is definitely warranted.--Wilkyisdashiznit

Since no one had a contrary opinion, I went ahead and just took out mention of the Catholic Church. Please do contact me if anyone dislikes the change.--Wilkyisdashiznit

Inconsistency

The article begins

 (French: "rebirth," Italian: "Rinascimento")

One of those is clearly incorrect, as the first is a literal translation FROM the language, and the second a translation INTO the language. Please would someone more familiar with 'pedia standards fix this? Thanks. --3DS Mike

Poland/Hungary

What's with this emphasis on Polish and Hungarian contributions to rennaissance? Is it justified? One of the sources cited is some Polish government website, that's just sad.

Poland and Hungary have 2 small paragraphs between them, and why shouldn't they?. The citation you mention merely verifies a fact, not an opinion, so I think it's safe to source it from the Polish government's site. --mais ^(talk) 17:15, 25 July 2007 (UTC)

James Franklin

I removed a lengthy reference to James Franklin on grounds of undue weight. First of all, Franklin is not a historian. According to his web page, he is an "Associate Professor, School of Mathematics and Statistics, UNSW." In other words, in this field, he is an amateur and his views have no more credibility than any other random personal Web page. The contents of his Web site make it clear that he is primarily interested in defending the Catholic Church (see, e.g., [1]), and his views need to be understood in that light. His "Renaissance myth" page also contains blatant errors; for instance, he refers to the notion that "St Augustine believed the southern hemisphere must be uninhabited, since people living there would be unable to see the Second Coming over Jerusalem" as a "bizarre notion" and therefore a myth. In fact, even Jeffrey Burton Russell, who argued strenuously against a medieval belief in a flat earth, noted several times that the church once believed the equator was impassable and therefore the southern hemisphere was uninhabited. Franklin is simply talking out his arse here. His views have made no impact on the field, he has no professional standing to talk about history, and including his personal opinions in a lengthy paragraph constitutes undue weight. 76.97.163.77 08:09, 23 October 2007 (UTC)

I am a historian. As detailed in my Wikipedia article, I am the author of The Science of Conjecture: Evidence and Probability Before Pascal]], a book on the history of medieval and Renaissance ideas published by Johns Hopkins University Press in 2001 - James Franklin —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmaths (talk • contribs) 03:32, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

The edit which added the assertion that you are a historian was made by you on April 7, 2007. - Special-T (talk) 04:08, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Make that April 15, 2007 - my mistake. - Special-T (talk) 04:09, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

That is not to the point, because the evidence that I am a historian is not the Wikipedia article but my published books on history (which fortunately are beyond the reach of Wikipedia vandals). I hope an apology will be forthcoming. I'm amazed that anyone would confess, in public and in print, to deleting material from Wikipedia in pursuit of an anti-Catholic agenda - and without feeling a need to provide any evidence whatsoever that the deleted material was wrong... - James Franklin —Preceding unsigned comment added by Jimmaths (talk • contribs) 23:34, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Inconsistencies

while I was reading this while I was doing a short report, it said in the lower area that it started in Europe in the 16th century, but at the begining of the artice, it states that it started in the 14th century. can somebody verify this information and make the correct one stand out? Keneke45 (talk) 22:28, 30 January 2008 (UTC)

Not just Greek works

You wrote "*More emphasis has been given to the role of Islamic scholars in preserving and developing ideas from classical antiquity." However, it wasn't just ideas from the classical Greek world that were preserved and developed but also from India, particularly in mathematics. Without mathematics, Western science and technology would never have gotten off the ground. I have added a reference to this to the current page. Houseofwealth (talk) 06:00, 26 February 2008 (UTC)

Art History - Renaissance

Could someone have a look at Art History - Renaissance to see if there is any useful material that could be merged to this article, and, if not, nominate the article for deletion. --rxnd (talk) 19:52, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

I would have thought that Renaissance art would be important enough a subject to warrant its own article?Xenovatis (talk) 22:06, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Large part of text deleted by accident?

Take a look at [this diff]. Seems that SmackBot in a fit of anti-vandalism accidentally deleted the latter part of the article, including the sections "For better or for worse" and "Other Renaissances" along with the list of sources and links. While some of the latter has been reconstructed, the articled has for a long time ended abruptly with a half-finished sentence and a broken quote. I'm reinstating the missing two sections as I feel it must be in error (minus the KFC reference). Merging the two lists of reference and links I'm leaving to somebody else. Geira (talk) 14:32, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Looks like it happened when I reverted some vandalism right after that. Although I think I did everything right - the automatic edit summary says I reverted to the valid SmackBot version - all the new merged text was removed with that edit. - Special-T (talk) 15:31, 21 March 2008 (UTC)

Lead

The lead was too long so I moved the last three paras to the Overview section. Lets discuss any comments as per WP:BRD. Also I added a see also and ref section but I am not sure I got all the relevant links for the see also. Any suggestions for other links? Thanks. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Xenovatis (talk • contribs)

Hey Xenovatis, I don't agree with your thoughts about the lead. WP:LEAD says the lead can be up to 4 paragraphs long, and many articles on lare subjects such as this have larger leads (think Middle Ages). We've had previous discussions about whether it's appropriate to include historiographical (i.e. the history of history) arguments in the lead, and I think in this case it is, because the term "Renaissance" is so controversial amongst historians. Regardless of all these points, just plonking that lead paragraph amongst the overview has created a disjointed and uneven section, so I'm going to move it back. If you want to talk about trimming that paragraph in some way, then I'm happy to, let's talk. mais ^(talk) 12:17, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

If it is compliant with WP:LEAD than I have no further objections. Thanks for pointing it out to me. I might trim a couple of sentences for readability and to make it more appealing and accesible.Xenovatis (talk) 13:53, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Wrt to the following:

The term Renaissance, like the term Middle Ages, was coined by Western scholars in the 15th century to designate what they considered the revival of the classical world of Greece and Rome which had died in the West and its rediscovery at the beginning of their own century, a revival in which they felt they were participating. That world however was still alive in the Eastern Roman Empire and the fall of Constantinople in 1453 provided the Renaissance with a major boost, for many Greek scholars migrated to Italy, carrying important books and manuscripts and a tradition of Greek scholarship.

Aside from the origin of the term (which can be ommited and another intro used) where else is it convered and why does it have no place in the lead? Thanks.Xenovatis (talk) 14:10, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The bits I was thinking of were these:

The term was first used retrospectively by the Italian artist and critic Giorgio Vasari (1511-1574) in his book The Lives of the Artists (published 1550). In the book Vasari was attempting to define what he described as a break with the barbarities of gothic art: the arts had fallen into decay with the collapse of the Roman Empire and only the Tuscan artists, beginning with Cimabue (1240-1301) and Giotto (1267-1337) began to reverse this decline in the arts. According to Vasari, antique art was central to the rebirth of Italian art.

and

The study of mathematics was flourishing in the Middle East, and mathematical knowledge was brought back by crusaders in the 13th century.[15] The decline of the Byzantine Empire after 1204 - and its eventual fall in 1453 - led to a sharp increase in the exodus of Greek scholars to Italy and beyond. These scholars brought with them texts and knowledge of the classical Greek civilization which had been lost for centuries in the West.[16] and they transmitted the art of exegesis.

These are in the relevant sections "Historiography" and "Assimilation of Greek and Arabic knowledge", not the overview, because I feel that they don't belong in an overview of the Renaissance's characteristics, but rather explain the history of the term, and suggest some explanation of its origins, respectively. I think the general overview section should only describe the qualities we associate with the Renaissance. mais ^(talk) 14:28, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for that. I agree on the origin of the term and agree further that most laymen don't associate the Renaissance with the Greeks but I think this is explained in WP:CSB and since there is a sourced ref from Britannica on the third para of its Renaissance article I think it is important enough to mention in the lead. I would like to hear your thoughts. Thanks.

The fall of Constantinople in 1453 provided Humanism with a major boost, for many eastern scholars fled to Italy, bringing with them important books and manuscripts and a tradition of Greek scholarship.

As for being civili this is your right and something one should expect and demand from all other editors rather than be thankfull for. Besides I am aware of and respect the amount of work you put here.Xenovatis (talk) 14:39, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

Some more refs for inclusion in that para

Michael H. Harris, History of Libraries in the Western World, Scarecrow 1995

At least three quarters of the ancient Greek classics that survived did so through Byzantine manuscripts.

J.J. Norwich, A Brief History of Byzantium, 1997::::Much of what we know about antiquity – especially Hellenic and Roman literature and Roman law - would have been lost forever, if it weren’t for the scholars and the scribes of Constantinople

Xenovatis (talk) 14:54, 23 March 2008 (UTC)

The lead seems very poor to me. It talks about linear perspective in painting, but never mentions humanism. The subsections of the "Characteristics" section seem like a more reasonable list. There seems to be very little relationship between them and the lead. There's also a lot of weasel-wording in the lead, and a lot of it sounds like it was the result of unhappy compromises between editors. If someone who didn't know what the Renaissance was tried to understand this lead, I don't think they'd be able to make heads or tails of it.--76.167.77.165 (talk) 04:01, 24 November 2008 (UTC)

Renaissance Art History

Merged the contents of the article that could be salvaged and were not too specialized (e.g. didn't include a painstaking description of a painting by Eyk) in the Art and Northern Renaissance sections. Proposed the article for deletion.Xenovatis (talk) 07:56, 4 April 2008 (UTC)

Table of contents placement

Does anybody have strong feelings about the placement of the Table of Contents? At the moment it is floating to the right, which I find odd, since the vast majority of articles have it below the lead. I've looked around the style manual, but can't find any indication whether the placement of the TOC should or must be standardised. How do people feel about this? I, personally, would move it back to its default location – just my 2¢. mais ^(talk) 16:22, 3 June 2008 (UTC)

Vandalism

Please look at the image description for the "spoken article" file for this article. It is obviously vandalised. ReluctantPhilosopher (talk) 18:29, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

Your input requested: Patrician/Patricianship

Under a proposal made by me, the pages Patrician and Patricianship -- whose names presently are not specific enough -- will be renamed as follows:

• Patrician → Patricians (Ancient Rome)
• Patricianship → Patricians (Middle Ages)

(I dropped an earlier proposal for merging the two pages.)

For the rationale for renaming the pages and a couple of associated other changes, as well as the opinions of user:Johnbod, please see the discussion page at Talk:Patricianship.

My question is, do people here support my renaming proposal, or if not support it, at least would not oppose it.

Thanks in advance for all replies--Goodmorningworld (talk) 14:31, 8 October 2008 (UTC)

Spread of Renaissance

>>> Hungary <<< was the first non Italian country , where the renaissance appeared (14th century). Somebody always delete it. Why? In medieval age Hungary was more stronger and important country than England. Can somebody answer ? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.185.112 (talk) 17:12, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

The reference given alludes that Hungary was one of the first to implement humanistic and renaissance values. My suggestion is, instead of edit-warring and simply stating that Hungary was the first non-Italian country where the renaissance appeared in Europe (14 th century), why not make a separate section called Hungarian Renaissance including János Vitéz, Janus Pannonius, and a well written version taken from --> (http://www.fondazione-delbianco.org/inglese/relaz00_01/mester.htm)?? I'm quite sure you can find sources on Vitez and Pannonius to round out the article. --Kansas Bear (talk) 17:37, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Well, you would need a reliable source. That means a peer-reviewed article, a textbook, or something like that. Your cite appears neither to be a peer-reviewed article, nor does it exactly support your claim that Hungary was the first non-Italian "country" where the Renaissance appeared in the 14th century. It seems like a rather bald claim -- in what way did the Renaissance appear in the 14th century? Only in architecture? Was there a humanist movement, involving translations of Greek works into Hungarian? What about art and music? Can you support any of these with references? I don't think there's any doubt about the 15th century in Hungary, it's the 14th, which you claim, that needs a better citation. Thanks, Antandrus (talk) 17:31, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

Most greek works translated to latin in Hungary, after fall of Consatninaple , the byzantine scientists fled to Hungary and Italy. therefore the translation of greek works were remarkable in Hungary. In France Germany England Spain the renaissance fluorished just in the 16th century. Hungary had Italian origin kings (Charles I of Hungary and louis the great you can found in wikipedia) in the 14th century. In Buda, the Hungarian capital was full of italian artists architects , designers clothes customs. Are there any renaissance artists in France Spain England etc.. in the 15th century? There aren't. All Hungarian history books are proud of that Hungarian kingdom was the first renaissance kingdom in Europe. Did you read the Hungary article? Our royal courts was the richest in Europe. Gold mines etc.... About renaissance dances: hungarian little nobles (gentry) in the 15th century. Beautiful short video : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SNOa0dxb2gU&feature=related this is part 5, original hungarian renaissance dances from 15th century (from a book 200 years later) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.111.185.112 (talk) 19:27, 3 January 2009 (UTC)

__________________ Part of the UNESCO Memory of the World Register

30 January to 24 February 2008

http://www.bsb-muenchen.de/Archive_Detailed_informatione.404+M5fc4d552644.0.html

The Hungarian King Matthias Corvinus had established one of the most important Renaissance libraries in his palace in Buda. However, after his death (1490), and in particular due to the invasions by the Turks, the collection was scattered. The great importance of this collection is not least based on the fact that Matthias Corvinus, who had enjoyed a humanistic upbringing, built up a systematic collection of manuscripts from a variety of subject fields, and even commissioned a number of manuscripts himself. Predominantly in Italy he had Latin texts written on parchment in an elaborate humanistic book script and had the works illuminated exquisitely, while he purchased valuable Greek manuscripts from Byzantium - also in Italy. All books were bound in a splendid cover and bore the coat of arms of the Hungarian king, making it possible today to reconstruct large parts of his library. Thus 232 of these Corvinus manuscripts are today preserved in almost 50 libraries all over the world. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.15.212 (talk) 20:04, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

This comment is a verbatim copy of the website above, which is a museum's ad for an exhibit. If it is intended to support some of the claims above, it doesn't cut it. Not a great source, and doesn't address the chronology of the Renaissance in Hungary. - Special-T (talk) 21:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

About the renaissance in Hungary (14th century) As I said : the renaissance started centuries later in other european states . http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=XecYBFmdCjEC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq=%22+renaissance+in+hungary%22+%22louis+the+great%22&source=web&ots=rVEbsz-ObL&sig=PMwq7a1cmvr1aHxenW6rgmHhJN8&hl=en&sa=X&oi=book_result&resnum=2&ct=result —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.15.212 (talk) 20:11, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Again... This ref is a single preview page of a book (can't see what the footnote on that page refers to). Not a sufficient ref, and AGAIN: It doesn't say anything about the claims above. - Special-T (talk) 21:39, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

But it's fact that renaissance spreaded much later in other european countries. (like france british isles germany spain or N-Europe) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.44.3.10 (talk) 08:44, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Leonardo as Scientist

The reference under SCIENCE to Leonardo is as follows:..." with artists such as Leonardo da Vinci making observational drawings of anatomy and nature". This is hopelessly inadequate. Please include in the references the following: Fritjof Capra (2007)The Science of Leonardo Inside the Mind of the Great Genius of the Renaissance; Doubleday.

Capra's study shows much of the science theory and experiments of Leonardo, claiming his as the “father of modern science” whose science is more in tune with holistic non-mechanistic approaches to science becoming popular today. Leonardo proposed a strong version of the scientific method, conducted experiments, analysed data, etc long before Galileo, Bacon, Newton. —Preceding unsigned comment added by PRC 07 (talk • contribs) 12:15, 17 April 2009 (UTC)