Talk:Refugee/Archive 2

This is an archive of past discussions about Refugee. Do not edit the contents of this page. If you wish to start a new discussion or revive an old one, please do so on the current talk page.

Archive 1

Archive 2

Split

Section on refugee crises (reasons and current crises) was cut and pasted into refugee crisis because article is considered to be too long and this seemed to be most suitable way to shorten.Michtrich (talk) 20:21, 4 August 2016 (UTC)

Text and/or other creative content from this version of Refugee was copied or moved into Refugee crisis with this edit on 21:00, 04 August 2016. The former page's history now serves to provide attribution for that content in the latter page, and it must not be deleted as long as the latter page exists.

merge to Displaced person

A refugee is a displaced person. An internally displaced person is also a displaced person. Yes I know that "refugee" is by far the most common term, but WP:wikilinks are magic. The terms need to be categorized together into a coherent and cohesive article. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 05:02, 12 October 2016 (UTC)

Oppose - refugees are a subset of displaced persons (as are internally displaced persons), and this article is already very long without these topics being merged. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:54, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- The relevant questions would be, how much of all three articles is roughly the same, and how much of this article is unnecessary? Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 07:57, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
  - Refugee and Internally displaced person are different topics with different article content. By merging them both into a single article, the result would be unwieldy. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:05, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
    - This article may or may not be relatively large, but the others are not. Forex I just found a totally unsourced section (copyvio from "Dufresne, C. (2007) Workshop Report Cluster/Sector Leadership Training 2–6 July 2007, July"?) in one of the others. These articles need to be pruned and merged. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 08:17, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
    - I agree that the others are relatively short, but this one is getting quite long. We need to bear WP:SIZERULE in mind. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:47, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
      - Not so much. This one is only a moderate 36kb, which has wholly unreferenced sections that are deletion bait. Suggest running Earwig's copyvio tool and seeing what happens. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 16:38, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
Strong oppose: 'displaced person' is a vaguely defined term with a multitude of defintions while 'refugee' has a strict defintion under international law per the 1951 Convention Relating to the Status of Refugees and its 1967 Protocol. Similarly IDPs have a strict definition. Furthermore, IDPs and refugees are not the only categories of forced migrants which exist. I'm actually suprised we have an article for 'displaced people' given that it an exceptionally uncommon name, I would have thought that a WP:BROADCONCEPT article would be at 'forced migration' or 'forced migrant', and even then we would still need seperate articles for refugees and IDPs to exist. Ebonelm (talk) 17:41, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
- If I may back up a bit and connect the dots in your comment, and then link them to mine above, I would summarize that all of these closely related articles have two things in common: 1) They kinda suck. Unreferenced, high copyvio. 2) They overlap considerably, to the point where distinguishing between them is a minor chore. So if you have better suggestions than mine (delete several sections, merge several articles), let's hear them. Lingzhi ♦ (talk).
  - Even if Refugee and Internally displaced person are poor articles and there is some overlap in their current content, they are about legally distinct concepts and I therefore can't see the case for merging them. Displaced person, however, is rather an unusual concept, and I can see a case for selectively merging material from there into other articles, and then deleting it. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:55, 12 October 2016 (UTC)
@Cordless Larry:@Ebonelm: OK then, how about this: 1) retract my current merge proposals 2) merge displaced person into forced migration, 3) tell me why this article has such a relatively large section about the UN Refugee Agency, and... should some of the subsections under that heading be moved out of it? It seems illogical to me. 4) Look for other examples of poor organization in other articles. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 16:28, 13 October 2016 (UTC)
- Seems sensible to me, but others might have different views or suggestions. I'm not sure why the section on the UNHCR is how it is, I'm afraid - I've not been a major contributor to the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:10, 15 October 2016 (UTC)
  - The UNHCR obviously plays an important role in refugees' lives. It provides or coordinates, as the articel says, acute and temporary protection for refugees as well as durable solutions. Metaphorically speaking, it is the government of the world population of refugees. And it is simlpy the common denominator for the two subsections that follow, i.e. for the options and opportunites that are open to refugees. The top part about the UNHCR could no doubt be shortened or taken out or moved to the main article and the two subsections could become sections. Michtrich (talk) 20:45, 15 October 2016 (UTC)

Issues- Security Threats

Thinking of editing the section and wanted share some issues I think need to be addressed: - The section is too short - No historical overview - No reference to current refugee crisis and links to terrorist organizations, CVE

I plan on giving some current context by using these sources (as of now):

1. Saunders, Jennifer B., Elena Fiddian-Qasmiyeh, and Susanna Snyder, eds. Intersections of Religion and Migration: Issues at the Global Crossroads. Springer, 2016. 2. Rettberg, Jill Walker, and Radhika Gajjala. "Terrorists or cowards: negative portrayals of male Syrian refugees in social media." Feminist Media Studies 16, no. 1 (2016): 178-181. 3. Shay, Shaul. "The fall of Dabiq and the fall of the Caliphate." (2016). 4. Byman, Daniel. Do Syrian Refugees Pose a Terrorism Threat?. Brookings, 2015. 5. Jones, Seth G. "The terrorism threat to the United States and implications for refugees." The Rand Corporation (2015). 6. Jayakumar, Shashi. "Is ‘Trojan Horse’: seeing wood for the trees?." (2015). 7. Rollins, John W., and Heidi M. Peters. "The Islamic State—Frequently Asked Questions: Threats, Global Implications, and US Policy Responses." Congressional Research Service report (2015). 8. Tse, Tiffany. "ISIS and Recruitment: How Do Demographics Play a Role?." (2016). 9. Mandel, Robert. "Perceived security threat and the global refugee crisis." Armed Forces & Society 24, no. 1 (1997): 77-103. 10. Kerwin, Donald. "The use and misuse of ‘national security’rationale in crafting US refugee and immigration policies." International Journal of Refugee Law 17, no. 4 (2005): 749-763. 11. Dowty, Alan, and Gil Loescher. "Refugee flows as grounds for international action." International Security 21, no. 1 (1996): 43-71. 12. Loescher, Gil, and James HS Milner. Protracted Refugee Situations: Domestic and international security implications. Vol. 375. Taylor & Francis, 2005. Nelkarhili (talk) 19:49, 4 February 2017 (UTC)

Access to healthcare services

I would like to update the above section with more recent examples of barriers and state policies. Potential sources include the following:

1. Barr, D., and J. B. Ashton. 1999. "Meeting the healthcare needs of refugees and asylum seekers." British Medical Journal 318 (7193):1291-1291. 2. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Department of Health and Human Services (HHS). “Control of Communicable Diseases.” Federal Register 82, no. 6890 (January 19,2017). https://www.federalregister.gov/d/2017-00615/page-6890. 3. Elsouhag, D., B. Arnetz, H. Jamil, M. A. Lumley, C. L. Broadbridge, and J. Arnetz. 2015. "Factors Associated with Healthcare Utilization Among Arab Immigrants and Iraqi Refugees." Journal of Immigrant and Minority Health 17 (5):1305-1312. doi: 10.1007/s10903-014-0119-3. 4. Hadgkiss, E. J., and A. M. N. Renzaho. 2014. "The physical health status, service utilisation and barriers to accessing care for asylum seekers residing in the community: a systematic review of the literature." Australian Health Review 38 (2):142-159. doi: 10.1071/ah13113. 5. McMurray, J., K. Breward, M. Breward, R. Alder, and N. Arya. 2014. "Integrated Primary Care Improves Access to Healthcare for Newly Arrived Refugees in Canada." Journal of Immigrant and Minority Health 16 (4):576-585. doi: 10.1007/s10903-013-9954-x. 6. Morris, M. D., S. T. Popper, T. C. Rodwell, S. K. Brodine, and K. C. Brouwer. 2009. "Healthcare Barriers of Refugees Post-resettlement." Journal of Community Health 34 (6):529-538. doi: 10.1007/s10900-009-9175-3. 7. Sandahl, H., M. Norredam, A. Hjern, H. Asher, and S. S. Nielsen. 2013. "Policies of access to healthcare services for accompanied asylum-seeking children in the Nordic countries." Scandinavian Journal of Public Health 41 (6):630-636. doi: 10.1177/1403494813484555. 8. Schneider, C., S. Joos, and K. Bozorgmehr. 2015. "Disparities in health and access to healthcare between asylum seekers and residents in Germany: a population-based cross-sectional feasibility study." Bmj Open 5 (11). doi: 10.1136/bmjopen-2015-008784. 9. Schulz, T. R., N. C. Chaves, J. Gardiner, and B. A. Biggs. 2015. "New models of care to meet the healthcare challenges of refugees." Internal Medicine Journal 45:19-19. 10. Spiegel, P. B., Checchi, F., Colombo, S., & Paik, E. 2010. Health-care needs of people affected by conflict: Future trends and changing frameworks. The Lancet, 375(9711), 341-5. 11. Tuepker, A., and C. H. Chi. 2009. "Evaluating integrated healthcare for refugees and hosts in an African context." Health Economics Policy and Law 4 (2):159-178. doi: 10.1017/s1744133109004824. 12. UNHCR. 2011. Ensuring Access to Health Care: Operational Guidance on Refugee Protection and Solutions in Urban Areas. http://www.unhcr.org/en-us/protection/health/4e26c9c69/ensuring-access-health-care-operational-guidance-refugee-protection-solutions.html?query=health%20care. Accessed 2/05/17 13. White, C. C., C. A. Solid, J. S. Hodges, and D. H. Boehm. 2015. "Does Integrated Care Affect Healthcare Utilization in Multi-problem Refugees?" Journal of Immigrant and Minority Health 17 (5):1444-1450. doi: 10.1007/s10903-014-0088-6.

JoonDay (talk) 01:51, 6 February 2017 (UTC)

Should we rename "Refugees in Foo" and "Asylum in Foo" articles to "Refugees and asylum in Foo"?

We don't have many articles about Refugees and Asylums in Fooland, but those we do are pretty much about both:

Through a few of them are weirdly worded, most of them are pretty much about refugees in Fooland. I wonder if they should all have their names standardized to 1) Refugees in Fooland 2) Refugees and asylum in Fooland? Refugees and asylum are not the same, obviously, but majority of the articles discuss both concepts. Not a single country or entity currently has two separate articles (asylum in Fooland/refugees in Fooland). Any thoughts on what should we do? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 22:21, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

"Asylum in Fooland" may be misunderstood as "facilities for the insane in Fooland". Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:30, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I think it is not needed to make these changes at the moment as it will make titles longer with no additional benefit other than same format. In some of the above examples it cannot be changed. Another thing is that asylum is a legal process and refugee is a legal status and refugees are people with that legal status; and it feels strange, like it should be 'refugees and asylum seekers in Foo' (both focus on people) or 'refugee status/integration and the asylum process' (both focus on processes).Michtrich (talk) 11:24, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

I will ping editors who commented on some move discussions on individual articles: User:Roman Spinner , User:In ictu oculi , User:AdventurousSquirrel , User:Tiptoethrutheminefield . Interested editors are also welcome to particiapte in RM (just click on anything linked above that seems non-standard and the odds are good I started a RM on the talk). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 16:04, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Consistency in titling is, indeed, one of key components in constructing an encyclopedia, especially the most wide-ranging one in human history. Despite dated cliches which denigrate consistency, similarity in title forms creates a familiar pattern for those who may be searching through a group of articles encompassing a particular subject.
In the case at hand, the form "Refugees in Fooland", should satisfy those who prefer short titles which encapsulate the main topic. There are already a number of titles using this form, while similar titles that also mention asylum law, asylum seekers, immigration, emigration, etc can be used as redirects.
Exceptions may be made in specific cases, such as individual articles devoted to defined sets of refugees in one location, for instance, a title such as Refugees of the Syrian Civil War in Jordan would be acceptable if there was another full-length article entitled Palestinian refugees in Jordan.
As already mentioned, articles about refugees also focus on asylum, thus obviating the need for separate articles titled "Asylum in Fooland" with, again, exceptions made for unusually specific instances which call for a detailed examination of asylum seekers, as opposed to refugees, from a particular country or region. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 19:11, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

I agree with Anthony Appleyard in the sense that it might be clearer if they were termed "Right of asylum in Foo" or "Political asylum in Foo", though the problem isn't as bad as it would be if they were called "Asylums in Foo". Michtrich though articulates the main problem I have with the phrasing better than I could have articulated it. For the sake of uniformity and simplicity, might it make sense to pick either "refugees" or "asylum" for all of the articles, with redirects for the unused term? AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 19:28, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

Oops, didn't see Roman Spinner's comment before I posted. I'd like to strengthen my support specifically for "Refugees in Foo" (rather than "Asylum in Foo") per his argument. On a related note, would a new article titled Refugees in Iraq be sufficiently readily distinguishable from an existing article like Refugees of Iraq? AdventurousSquirrel (talk) 19:39, 19 February 2017 (UTC)

There are indeed, various cross-purpose moves resulting in inconsistencies such as Refugees and internally displaced persons in Azerbaijan presently redirecting to Refugees in Azerbaijan, while the above-mentioned header, Refugees in Iraq presently redirects to Internally displaced persons in Iraq.
As for similar title headers, those are usually complemented by hatnotes. Refugees of Iraq, for instance (which already carries the hatnote, "Iraqi refugees" redirects here. For other uses, see Christian emigration#Iraq, and Iraqi Jews in Israel), can be furnished with an additional hatnote which would specify to the effect of, for Refugees in Iraq, see Internally displaced persons in Iraq. If this "Internally displaced" title is moved to a shorter form, the hatnote would be adjusted accordingly. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 18:08, 20 February 2017 (UTC)

cleanup references, would alter format

Hey, while copy editing Lead recently I wrote a Python program that cleans refs, but it completely changes them to {{sfn}} format. I think that format is much, much easier to maintain and easier to read. I could run it on this article as well, then get rid of the "references formatting needs cleanup" banner atop the article. Thoughts? Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 05:32, 4 March 2017 (UTC)

done. Lingzhi ♦ (talk) 12:23, 7 March 2017 (UTC)

Agreed. I very strongly agree with the principle of removing template clutter from the body of an article, and the short-form referencing style is usually (but not always) the best. --NSH001 (talk) 16:38, 11 March 2017 (UTC)

Hereditary

I cut out these sections:

In UN parlance, the concept of 'refugee' also includes descendants of refugees but only in the case of two specific groups, viz. Palestinian refugees and Sahrawi refugees. As a result, the vast majority of registered refugees within these two groups have not themselves been displaced, but they have inherited the 'refugee status' and hence their eligibility for aid and services, provided they meet certain criteria established by the UN and/or aid agencies. The UN does not consider refugee status to be hereditary for any other group, but may still assist relatives of refugees in some cases. The UNHCR also protects people in refugee-like situations.^{[citation needed]}

There is one exception to the RSD process: younger Palestinian and Sahrawi refugees are given refugee status without having fled their home country themselves. They inherit the refugee status from their ancestors who were the ones forced to migrate.

It's just not true. Refugee status passes on to descendants as a matter of routine. See for example Procedural Standards for Refugee Status Determination under UNHCR's Mandate or this interview with Chris Gunness. ImTheIP (talk) 23:13, 6 August 2017 (UTC)

Edit request: Add thoroughly sourced content on refugees

Can someone please add the following content to this page: https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/User:Snooganssnoogans/RefugeeEdits

It's extremely relevant and well-sourced. The content comes from the articles "Immigration and Crime" and "Immigration" (I wrote this content originally on those articles) but I can't add it to this article due to a ban on "mass-editing" (adding similar content to more than two articles). I am allowed to make edit requests though. Snooganssnoogans (talk) 00:54, 10 August 2017 (UTC)

Education heading

Article evaluation

Education portion of the Wikipedia article, "Refugee."[1]

Could possibly make it a "Youth" or "Children" heading and talk about education under that. The reader is lead to believe that the writer thinks refugee children are struggling and treated unfairly. However, he includes factual information for the most part. The statistics are helpful, as well as the example of the actions that schools are taking to confront this issue. The links to the citations work and they appear to come from trustworthy journals and reviews. They support the information that the writer is talking about. Facts are well referenced throughout the article. Some more about the refugee youth's general life could be added and if the students are able to succeed despite the obstacles. There is nothing on the talk page regarding the "Education" part of the article. Jdb322 (talk) 17:37, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

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Refugee Studies

I am currently drafting some content about the emergence of refugee studies as a field of research, and adding a new section about it. Let me know if anyone has any issues with this. Liz.go (talk) 17:10, 17 March 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 14 May 2019

This edit request to Refugee has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

Please change '1998' in the title above the table showed in 'Internally displaced person' to '1996' as that is the actual date displayed. NjilremMerlijn (talk) 14:36, 14 May 2019 (UTC)

Not done: It is unclear whether 1998 is to be changed to 1996, or vice versa.

I attempted to clarify via the reference given, the UNHCR Yearbook for 2014 ([1]); however it does not provide any mention of 1996 or 1998 figures. I also cannot find the numbers "11,480,900" or "5,063,900". I have marked the reference as having failed verification, with a link to this talk page section. NiciVampireHeart 21:55, 20 May 2019 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Nelkarhili, JoonDay. Peer reviewers: Mbmorley, Nelkarhili, JoonDay, Acvgsu.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Shellym00.

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