Talk:Red Bull Junior Team
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Article problems
[edit]This article lacks sources, suffers from POV, and is not written in an encyclopædic style. Adrian M. H. 16:30, 28 January 2007 (UTC)
Jüri Vips
[edit]Opening this section because there have been a number of users removing Jüri Vips from the "current drivers" table. As explained in the edit summaries, Vips was first suspended provisionally a week ago by Red Bull (and subsequently removed from their website). He has now been officially terminated by the F1 Team as test and reserve driver, BUT the Junior Team and Hitech (the other two companies where he is employed) are yet to take any actions. It is to be expected that he will be released by the Junior Team in due course but such thing hasn't been confirmed yet. @Nikandv: you're invited to discuss. MSport1005 (talk) 17:57, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Is there a good reason official website is not a reliable source or is it just because you're a Juri Vips fan according to your profile? Nikandv (talk) 18:42, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I was a Vips fan until the incident. Doesn't change anything regarding this. You can't just remove him from the Junior Team article when he hasn't been released and then pretend the website (which was last updated a week ago) is a valid source for it.
Is there a good reason official website is not a reliable source
- yes. Read a bit on Wikipedia's guidelines, particularly WP:BLPRS and WP:RSPRIMARY. Then try to understand the meaning of basic statements like "Oracle Red Bull Racing has terminated Juri's contract as its test & reserve driver". And then come back and tell me how precisely that affects his role in the junior team. MSport1005 (talk) 19:44, 28 June 2022 (UTC)- The fact that it wasn't updated for a week (no proofs given) doesn't mean it isn't true. This is still the official website and the official source of communication of Red Bull Junior Team and it does not have Jüri Vips listed as a current driver within the team. Why do you keep bringing the statement from Oracle Red Bull Racing when I'm referring to a completely different source of information. The statement from RBR neither confirms nor denies that Jüri Vips is no longer part of Junior Team. And maybe try being less arrogant? Nikandv (talk) 21:30, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Asking for less arrogance is a bit rich coming from someone who said "Is there a good reason official website is not a reliable source or is it just because you're a Juri Vips fan". But yes, I agree, let's not get personal. My main point here is: there is no statement on Vips' RBJT membership so he is officially still a member until otherwise stated. As you can see here, the website was last updated on the 22nd, last Wednesday, when they removed his profile from the website and his photos from their content pool. This came shortly after the statement that he was "suspended pending a full investigation". The only update that has come since is today's, saying his contract as F1 test/reserve driver has been terminated. No word about the junior team. MSport1005 (talk) 22:01, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Okay, I accept your point. Let's wait for the official statement then Nikandv (talk) 08:51, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- https://www.redbull.com/int-en/juniorteam He has been completely removed from the Junior Team link that RB have RealLeviticus (talk) 14:48, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Having watched today's F2 practice and qualifying sessions, Vips' Red Bull sponsorship has been completely removed from his helmet, car, overalls, etc. While no official statement from the team, there is enough evidence to suggest he has been dropped entirely by Red Bull. Dh16dh (talk) 16:51, 1 July 2022 (UTC)
- Unfortunately that is not enough of a source for Wikipedia. While I agree with your assumption (and I already said "It is to be expected that he will be released by the Junior Team"), it is still only an assumption, and we'll need more solid evidence that states he has been dropped by the Junior Team. MSport1005 (talk) 11:11, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- Okay, I accept your point. Let's wait for the official statement then Nikandv (talk) 08:51, 29 June 2022 (UTC)
- Asking for less arrogance is a bit rich coming from someone who said "Is there a good reason official website is not a reliable source or is it just because you're a Juri Vips fan". But yes, I agree, let's not get personal. My main point here is: there is no statement on Vips' RBJT membership so he is officially still a member until otherwise stated. As you can see here, the website was last updated on the 22nd, last Wednesday, when they removed his profile from the website and his photos from their content pool. This came shortly after the statement that he was "suspended pending a full investigation". The only update that has come since is today's, saying his contract as F1 test/reserve driver has been terminated. No word about the junior team. MSport1005 (talk) 22:01, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- The fact that it wasn't updated for a week (no proofs given) doesn't mean it isn't true. This is still the official website and the official source of communication of Red Bull Junior Team and it does not have Jüri Vips listed as a current driver within the team. Why do you keep bringing the statement from Oracle Red Bull Racing when I'm referring to a completely different source of information. The statement from RBR neither confirms nor denies that Jüri Vips is no longer part of Junior Team. And maybe try being less arrogant? Nikandv (talk) 21:30, 28 June 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, I was a Vips fan until the incident. Doesn't change anything regarding this. You can't just remove him from the Junior Team article when he hasn't been released and then pretend the website (which was last updated a week ago) is a valid source for it.
- Do we have any evidence that today Vips continues to be a part of the Red Bull Junior team for example in the Silverstone Formula 2 event? I guess that requirement for source could not be one-way and we need confirmation that this information is actual. My assumption that we may never receive a proposed press release, because Red Bull have obvious reasons not to highlight that they ever have any relation to Vips. They do not even included him in alumni section on their site. Corvus tristis (talk) 11:23, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- This is the only source I've found that explicitly states that Vips has been dismissed from the junior team as well as the main team. Not sure if it is enough evidence as there are no other articles to corroborate.
- https://www.racefans.net/2022/07/01/draconian-decision-to-sack-vips-shows-red-bull-is-serious-about-racism-horner/ Dh16dh (talk) 13:34, 2 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't consider RaceFans to be a reliable source—they fail to verify a lot of the news they post which leads to dumb mistakes, like that time they made a full article on Smolyar and his "Andorran" licence... As for what Corvus tristis said, that is not how Wikipedia works. We need evidence for Vips being released, not for Vips being kept. As it stands, the most recent communication is when they announced their 2022 drivers, which suggests he has a contract until the end of the year. It is likely that he has been released, but unless officially stated, we will have to wait until 2023 to remove him. MSport1005 (talk) 20:17, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- RBJT's website is a definite main reliable source altogether. If Vips is not listed there, then he isn't a part of it, that's the end of any discussion. It's as clear cut as it gets in my opinion. To keep him around as a current driver in this page feels like a nitpicking to me. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 08:25, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- If you read the full conversation you'll see that he was removed from the website even before the full investigation. If the RBJT's alumni website can be considered reliable then neither Vips nor Ticktum should even be in the "former drivers" section, because they've removed any trace of their profiles from the website. It is probably nitpicking but we need a source, like it or not. MSport1005 (talk) 11:39, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- RBJT's website is a definite main reliable source altogether. If Vips is not listed there, then he isn't a part of it, that's the end of any discussion. It's as clear cut as it gets in my opinion. To keep him around as a current driver in this page feels like a nitpicking to me. Jovanmilic97 (talk) 08:25, 4 July 2022 (UTC)
- I don't consider RaceFans to be a reliable source—they fail to verify a lot of the news they post which leads to dumb mistakes, like that time they made a full article on Smolyar and his "Andorran" licence... As for what Corvus tristis said, that is not how Wikipedia works. We need evidence for Vips being released, not for Vips being kept. As it stands, the most recent communication is when they announced their 2022 drivers, which suggests he has a contract until the end of the year. It is likely that he has been released, but unless officially stated, we will have to wait until 2023 to remove him. MSport1005 (talk) 20:17, 3 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, we need a source that Vips still Red Bull Junior Team athlete, if you do not have a source that he competed in Silverstone in such status, then he should be moved to former drivers section. Corvus tristis (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- That's not how it works, sir. MSport1005 (talk) 12:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- So, all you can say that you have no sources confirming that Vips is current Red Bull Junior Team member? Corvus tristis (talk) 04:00, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- Well, this exists now... [1] Jovanmilic97 (talk) 13:12, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- About that... MSport1005 (talk) 13:13, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- None of these sources actually state that he is still part of the junior team,while [2] clearly says the opposite. Formula Downforce (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- How is "Juri Vips [...] remains a part of the team's junior programme" not a clear statement? MSport1005 (talk) 17:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- It just says that in the headline. In the actual interview Christian Horner states that the agreement with Vips has been cancelled and that he is not funded by Red Bull. Formula Downforce (talk) 22:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
It just says that in the headline
- so what else do you need? It can't get much clearer than that. His F2 seat was never funded by Red Bull in the first place (hence the non-Red Bull livery and Hitech's liberty of choice) and what has been cancelled is his contract with the F1 team. Christian Horner is only employed at the F1 team and only speaks on behalf of the F1 team. MSport1005 (talk) 18:04, 12 July 2022 (UTC)- Then why does Formula Scout say that he is no longer a Red Bull Junior? Formula Downforce (talk) 23:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because they've taken "Jüri Vips is no longer competing for the RBJT" to mean "no longer a junior" rather than "currently suspended from representing the RBJT", which is what it explicitly means. There is confusion regarding the matter, Red Bull or Vips aren't willing to clarify anything (as proven in the post-quali press conference) but, as it stands, 95% of reliable sources state that he is still a junior. MSport1005 (talk) 08:17, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Okay, thanks for clearing that up. :) Formula Downforce (talk) 18:04, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- https://www.planetf1.com/news/no-red-bull-support-juri-vips/ - Helmut Marko has confirmed that Red Bull is not supporting them in any way. This means that he is also not in the Junior Team, as that is a way that Red Bull supports junior drivers. 37.157.123.166 (talk) 01:07, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- PlanetF1, and particularly SportsMole, which is cited as the original source, are not reliable. And again, this would be another case of careless, ambiguous wording: "no longer receives support from Red Bull" does not mean "no longer a junior". MSport1005 (talk) 15:27, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- @MSport1005: I do not understand your reasoning. If every 'current' Red Bull junior is listed on their website, why are you making an exception for Vips? That website should be the single most important source here regarding 'current' juniors. "If the RBJT's alumni website can be considered reliable then neither Vips nor Ticktum should even be in the "former drivers" section, because they've removed any trace of their profiles from the website." This is a terrible argument in my opinion. I am talking about current drivers, not former. We do not use that as a source for former drivers. D4R1U5 (talk) 09:16, 7 August 2022 (UTC)
- Is the national news service of Estonia a reliable enough source? https://news.err.ee/1608662308/vips-no-longer-receiving-red-bull-support
- Another Estonian source: https://sport.postimees.ee/7567630/vahepealsed-lootused-kustusid-juri-vips-jai-ikkagi-red-bulli-abita
- An English source, that actively writes about F1: https://www.express.co.uk/sport/f1-autosport/1642933/Red-Bull-Juri-Vips-racial-slur-Christian-Horner-Helmut-Marko-F1-news
- I really do not understand why you are trying to keep Jüri as a current member of the Junior Team on this page. I believe it is obvious that he has been booted from the team, as Red Bull seniors are clearly saying that they do not support him anymore, which would mean that he has been removed from the Junior Team, as it is the only way they support their junior drivers. It has also been reported across multiple outlets. If this were false, would Red Bull not issue a statement? This news has been circulating for more than two weeks now. They would have denied kicking Vips out if they really hadn't done it by now. 37.157.123.166 (talk) 13:27, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- They're trying to avoid clearing up all doubts by giving vague answers like "no longer competing for the RBJT", "not racing with Red Bull support". Vips' own refusal to reply to the question in the Austria press conference confirms that. As it stands, despite the confusion, the only explicit evidence we have (The Independent, The Bolton News) points towards Vips still being part of the RBJT. Take it or leave it, but we don't have evidence for the opposite so we can't remove him for the time being. To @D4R1U5: Go back to the early messages. Vips was removed from the website as soon as he was suspended. That in itself means "removed from the website" can not be equated to "no longer a RBJT member". MSport1005 (talk) 19:25, 9 August 2022 (UTC)
- PlanetF1, and particularly SportsMole, which is cited as the original source, are not reliable. And again, this would be another case of careless, ambiguous wording: "no longer receives support from Red Bull" does not mean "no longer a junior". MSport1005 (talk) 15:27, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
- Because they've taken "Jüri Vips is no longer competing for the RBJT" to mean "no longer a junior" rather than "currently suspended from representing the RBJT", which is what it explicitly means. There is confusion regarding the matter, Red Bull or Vips aren't willing to clarify anything (as proven in the post-quali press conference) but, as it stands, 95% of reliable sources state that he is still a junior. MSport1005 (talk) 08:17, 13 July 2022 (UTC)
- Then why does Formula Scout say that he is no longer a Red Bull Junior? Formula Downforce (talk) 23:17, 12 July 2022 (UTC)
- It just says that in the headline. In the actual interview Christian Horner states that the agreement with Vips has been cancelled and that he is not funded by Red Bull. Formula Downforce (talk) 22:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- How is "Juri Vips [...] remains a part of the team's junior programme" not a clear statement? MSport1005 (talk) 17:33, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- None of these sources actually state that he is still part of the junior team,while [2] clearly says the opposite. Formula Downforce (talk) 15:45, 9 July 2022 (UTC)
- So, all you can say that you have no sources confirming that Vips is current Red Bull Junior Team member? Corvus tristis (talk) 04:00, 6 July 2022 (UTC)
- That's not how it works, sir. MSport1005 (talk) 12:19, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
- Yes, we need a source that Vips still Red Bull Junior Team athlete, if you do not have a source that he competed in Silverstone in such status, then he should be moved to former drivers section. Corvus tristis (talk) 03:26, 5 July 2022 (UTC)
Right... new evidence seems to have appeared, and this time it's coming from the man himself. Last Saturday at Monza, post-sprint race press conference—to the petition to give an "update on where things are at with Red Bull" Vips said "with Red Bull there is nothing, hasn't been for a while, that's all done and over, in the past". I think it's safe to conclude that he was indeed released by the Junior Team, probably sometime between the day he declined to comment (Austria in early July) and last week, so I'll remove him from the current drivers section and add him to the former drivers one. If you disagree, feel free to revert that and continue the discussion here. MSport1005 (talk) 19:50, 12 September 2022 (UTC)
Inaccuracy
[edit]Arvid Lindblad is part of the Red Bull supported team and the article is inaccurate at the end when it states that he is not 2A00:23C7:B01D:5401:6023:E5E7:24CF:9D03 (talk) 00:53, 16 January 2023 (UTC)