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Archive 1

Merger proposal

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result was merge into Reculver. -- Nortonius (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

I've just added the merge template to the Reculver article, per Help:Merging. Please note that the merge was first proposed by IP editor 86.23.69.211, and is supported by editor Le Deluge and me in comments above, which I've marked with bold type, in the section "Recent revision". Nortonius (talk) 17:04, 9 September 2010 (UTC)

Having first been proposed at Talk:Reculver Castle on 5 September, this merger proposal has been up for about a week now, and there has been no input other than that indicated by me above; so, I'm closing the discussion with the result merge. Note that, in effect, merging has been done over a number of previous edits to the Reculver article, and the Reculver Castle article now stands as a duplicate. Nortonius (talk) 15:27, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Duh - for the record, I said above that the merge had first been proposed "at Talk:Reculver Castle" - I should've said, "by the addition of a merge template to the Reculver Castle article". Nortonius (talk) 16:04, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

Recent revision

I've just about completed a fairly major overhaul of the Reculver article, especially of the "History" section. I'd be grateful for any comments on the changes from third parties, and a similar review of the article's status and categories. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 05:21, 8 June 2008 (UTC)

Good stuff - it's only a few tweaks away from WP:GA, and you might want to talk to the UKgeo people about what you need to do to go all the way to WP:FA, that project is more active and has more experience of FAs than WP Kent. I've sorted out various minor WP:MOS issues, the obvious thing that the GA reviewer will pick up on is that a couple of paras like the Millennium Cross one don't have any refs at all and they do like to see at least one per para. Aside from that and just being subjective : the images were a bit church-heavy and the modern one in particular didn't really impart any encyclopaedic information, so I dropped it. Since the article is notionally about the village, it would be nice to have at least one pic including habitation. I don't know if it's possible, but perhaps the infobox pic could be a long shot of the church from the village? It would certainly look more welcoming if the main photo had some blue sky - things just look better in the sun. I know - that's getting really picky. If you're not local, I may get out there at some point in the next few months - I'm working my way taking photos from Thanet inwards - but the pic in Reculver Castle might do for now? Just generally, it might be nice to have a _little_ bit more on the Roman stuff, although I understand that's what Regulbium is for. Talking of Reculver Castle, I'm not sure what a full-length article on that would look like, but given the overlap it probably makes more sense to merge it in here before messing about with GA/FA? Le Deluge (talk) 13:28, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Thanks - good to get some constructive, third party input at long last! I'd tried splitting off the Parramatta bit, but couldn't get it to work for layout - it had never occurred to me to put a photo in among the refs! The Millennium Cross bit was already there with no ref, I've searched high and low for one online, and found related stuff, but nothing that actually underpins the para. About "church-heavy", I'd thought that myself, but I'm actually not local, and have been quietly/subconsciously leaving that to someone who might be. My only connection with Reculver is that my family used to holiday there in the late 1960s, so I don't really have anything to add on the village - only things like vivid memories of eating from the chippie, the pub having a weird name(!), being able at that time to go up the towers, etc.! Not exactly suitable... I think removal of the modern photo of the church follows naturally from the "church heavy" idea, and it didn't really add anything. If you can get a long shot of the church from the village, I think that'd be great. My subjective view of the current infobox photo vs. the one at Reculver Castle is that the latter page has a fine photo (of the church! Wot castle?!), but the current infobox photo gives a better idea of the location, as well as suggesting a certain bleak remoteness about the place looking east. And I think it is pretty remote, though not so bleak if you look west. But I completely agree, that there should be more about the village. I'll see if I can find some more Roman stuff that could go in. I agree about merging Reculver Castle here: no offence to the creator of that article, but I can't see the point of it to be honest, I've done a few tweaks there but only to straighten some stuff out, not to encourage the article's continued existence. If it ends up as a redirect, perhaps it should point to Regulbium. Cheers. p.s. Well done for finding that ref for the Hoy & Anchor! Nortonius (talk) 15:03, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Google Books can be your friend! :-) Obviously there's a problem that most of the books are Victorian, so you need to be sceptical of them for anything where views have changed or new discoveries made, but they're great for dull heavy-lifting stuff, and their coverage of then contemporary events is usually more comprehensive than modern history books. 2.1 of this ref should help you with the Millennium Cross, and could give you some ideas for other aspects that you've missed, other bits of history and the caravan sites for instance. 2.3 might also have suggestions for things to mention in the lead. I wonder if it might be worth dropping KARU a line to see if they could release some maps or images, or even to have them glance over the article even in an unofficial capacity?
The oyster hatchery ([www.oysterhatchery.com]) is also worth a mention - it certainly looks spectacular on satellite view. On the Millennium Cross, I wonder if it might work better if that line or two was worked into the main history, either as a distinct subsection or not, with a bit more discussion of the Saxon original, and then just have a photo of the new cross? Another item for my photos-to-do!
On the infobox photo, atmosphere is good, but it's hard to do on a 240px thumbnail. More importantly, the current thumbnail makes it hard to appreciate the coastal setting, as the sea is sort of the same colour as the land. Blue versus green would make it a lot easier. I can't promise I'll get out there soon, it's a wee way away for me but I hope to get out there at some point. My photo expeditions depend on when I'm in the area and also on what the weather's like - if we get a nice high pressure system for a few weeks that could make a big difference, although my current target is to knock off the Sandwich Bay/Dover area first. There's a ton of articles lacking images out that way and I'm trying to use up my big trips on going to the extremities, on the grounds that they are less likely to be done than places like Reculver which are closer to Medway or for London trippers. "Everything east of Canterbury" is the medium-term target, followed by Ashford, Rye, Maidstone, Sevenoaks.... It's slow stuff, not least because they tend to be the unloved articles that need copyediting and some incoming links, and I hate walking away from a really grotty article...
On the castle article - I see it's one of those where Moonriddengirl has been doing her copyvio thing, so we've no idea who was behind it. It seems to me that merger is a no-brainer, we should probably leave it a few days but I'll leave you to do it. Le Deluge (talk) 16:46, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I'd searched Google Books, maybe just not persistently enough to get a result! I put in that ref for the "Masterplan", with its sections 2.1 and 2.3, but it doesn't support the M. Cross adequately for what's in the article, as I recall. Maybe that should just be trimmed down to a bare statement that the cross is there? About the other stuff, I'll see if I can summon the energy - it's in rather short supply right now, and, as I said, I've been waiting for someone with local knowledge to add something (don't remind me about the caravan park! ;-)), and I don't mind waiting longer. Oh, and that ref that you put in, then I moved, and you moved back again - it really ought to follow a punctuation mark, so maybe that bit needs re-writing? I'd be minded to delete the last sentence in the para for now just to get around it, if there's no ref for it; but there's no harm in the existing pub being mentioned. Cheers. p.s. I just struck that about the ref & punctuation, you already supplied a punctuation mark! Sorry, I didn't notice, and as I say, energy in short supply - it's not that I don't appreciate your input, I do, and I don't mean to sound unhelpful, either! Just not at my best right now. Thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 18:21, 5 September 2010 (UTC)
(later:) Hmm, not sure I see what you mean about the sea being the same colour as the land, in the infobox photo - sea looks clear enough to me - sometimes different monitors show the same thing in different ways! But yes, atmosphere is hard to do in a thumbnail - how about replace the infobox photo with a "blue-sky-green-grass" one, and find another spot in the article for the atmospheric one, as you did so well re Parramatta cathedral...? Maybe among the Legends! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 10:26, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
(discussion works much better once one remembers to watchlist a page...) No that ref doesn't cover sentence 2 of the MX stuff, but it's fine for the rest, which should get you past WP:GAN which only requires inline refs for "direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons" - and a unofficial guideline of at least one ref per para. At this stage I would only be thinking in terms of what the article needs to get to GA, it would give you some "reward" for the effort you've put it. Googling reveals no sources for the cathedral masons sentence that don't appear to come from here, so it should probably be struck, even though it's quite plausible and may well be mentioned at the visitor centre or something.
On the ref hokey-cokey, don't worry about it - it's just that reliable quoting of refs is sacrosanct, punctuating tags is just a nicety. As for the other stuff, don't worry about it - I've a pretty thick skin. <g> I feel unhelpful not doing more of this myself but I really must stop getting distracted, I've articles I half-wrote in June that still haven't finished and this photo project is just sprawling like Topsy... I figure some pointers from a set of fresh eyes are better than nothing though. I think the sea/land thing is not a monitor issue, just that it's obvious once you've "got" it and understand the geometry, but until then you assume anything sludgy green is land. BTW, I've flagged this article to the UKgeo guys, so you might get more attention soon. Le Deluge (talk) 11:56, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
Absolutely right about a "fresh set of eyes"! I think a reader would have to be a bit dim not to figure the sea/land elements of that photo, with the words "viewed from the west" in the caption and a map underneath - but I'm only quibbling now, for the sake of keeping the photo somewhere in the article - I definitely think you're right that the photo's too gloomy for the infobox, and against what I just quibbled about myself I do think a clearer photo is needed there - dim or not, the reader shouldn't have to work out what an infobox photo is of, so you're absolutely right, I'm sure. I'll try to do something about that today - probably what you suggested earlier.(done!) Thanks for contacting UKgeo - I've been trying to kickstart my brain into thinking about a section "Modern Reculver" (or substitute whatever heading seems better), trying to bash the article into a less haphazard shape after the "History" section, but I think I've got into a wood-for-the-trees situation, having done so many detailed edits... Hopefully more fresh eyes will help! And, yes, I can't deny that it'd be good to see Reculver as a GA...! Thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 12:19, 6 September 2010 (UTC)
I really don't think there's too much to say about modern Reculver, partly because most of it seems to have fallen in the sea! Looking at the satellite images, I guess most of those 135 people must have been in the caravans. The pub needs a mention, the caravans and the oysters and I think that's about it. Section headings containing the article title are discouraged, but you could legitimately put that stuff under "Economy" or as modern history. Economy is probably better, it's one of the standard headings and you've got plenty of history already. A couple of sentences on that stuff, make sure every para has a ref, and you're probably ready for GAN. Oh, another random thought, population data through time can help make a general point about the decline of a village (if there is one) - nice and quantitative and reffable, even if it's just from one or two datapoints. Le Deluge (talk) 16:32, 6 September 2010 (UTC)

All good stuff - historical population info (that I can find for free!) is surprising, so maybe problematical - but I'll try to work on the above areas some more today. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 11:18, 7 September 2010 (UTC)

Lots more done today, mostly for consistency in refs - really hope I wasn't wasting my time with all those pesky non-breaking spaces! Now, about that GAN... I think I can still see some rough edges, but it might well be time. Nortonius (talk) 20:01, 8 September 2010 (UTC)

Hello Le Deluge, I like the tweak/move of the church wall image. Also, understood about tricksy formatting, but I'm seeing some terrible edit link bunching now - didn't we ought to do something about it? It's the only reason I bothered with the formatting, and removing the formatting has certainly broken things for me...(done - great!) Cheers. p.s. And thanks for cleaning up the Reculver Castle talk page, I was wondering what to do about that! Nortonius (talk) 18:40, 11 September 2010 (UTC)

{{Fixbunching}} is a bit of a quick fix, I'm not a huge fan especially when as here you have a widish infobox and a narrow upright image. It'll do for now, but smearing the images through the text would be the preferred option, if it can be done evenly - and perhaps sticking the two views from the south together into one image? I see you're still fiddling, to avoid conflicts I'll leave my twiddles until tonight. There's picky stuff left to be done, much of which could happen whilst waiting for a GA reviewer to get on the case (and it's always good to let them have something to pick up on! <g>), mostly just tweaking the English although the lead could probably do with a complete rewrite, which I can do, it's best done by someone with fresh eyes and written as a piece, rather than acquiring chunks progressively. There's some niggles, like the 60mya mention in the lead, which really ought to be reffed within a section in the main body if it is to be included at all. But given that the geology is relevant to the landforms and hence the history, it could bear a bit more about it, perhaps the toponymy section could turn into a geography section? You might get some further ideas from WP:WikiProject UK geography/How to write about settlements - obviously a lot of those sections aren't appropriate and would just clutter up the article, but it could provide food for thought. Le Deluge (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
Yes, I'm still fiddling! About the lead, and other tweaks, re-write away! Fresh eyes, and all that... Though, the 60mya bit is reffed to an online .pdf, but probably in the wrong place in the article(!), and you have to work it out from a diagram in the .pdf! Took me ages to settle on that though, couldn't seem to find anything else really useful about it online, specifically for Reculver. I'll see if I can cook up a single image with the 2 views from the S. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Reculver Abbey

As one duplicate is merged, so another one arises - created by a barnstorming article creator on 9 September... Not sure what to make of it - the present Reculver article already covers almost everything there is to say about Reculver Abbey, in the "Medieval" section; but, on the other hand, it could be argued that the Reculver article needn't have quite so much on the medieval period, and ordinarily I'd be in favour of an "Abbey" article, because it is a distinct subject from the village, the parish church even... And there is a bit more that could be squeezed into an "Abbey" article, that there isn't really room for in the Reculver article... Images might be a problem, though! Thoughts anyone? Nortonius (talk) 10:24, 12 September 2010 (UTC)

I'm in two minds. I think I'm marginally in favour of merging, the Reculver article isn't so huge and the abbey is so bound up with the history that it would fit here, whilst the amount that can reliably be said about stuff in the Dark Ages ain't huge. One of my tests is "what would a GA on that subject look like?" But I'm not that fussed either way. Le Deluge (talk) 13:52, 16 September 2010 (UTC)
I pretty much agree - the "abbey" has an intriguing and, obv, notable history, but it's very limited. Reculver Abbey is just one of dozens and dozens of stub articles created by an editor, not because there's any real point to its separate existence, IMHO. Maybe I'll whack on a merge template - anyway it'd be interesting if someone tips up and wants to make a go of it! Nortonius (talk) 14:12, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Geology

This should give you some pointers and Googlebait. Geologists don't like getting too specific on mya, it's much better to talk about periods - as you can see Reculver is mostly Lower Eocene going down into the top of the Palaeocene, which is known as the Thanetian, you're looking at 54-56mya. The Thanet Sands or Thanet Beds would also be relevant search terms, you should be able to find something on the BGS site or something if you search on Herne Bay or the Wantsum. Le Deluge (talk) 14:45, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Think I'll wait 'til you've had a go at the article - didn't get anywhere searching for Reculver, Herne Bay, Wantsum or even Kent at the BGS site itself, just one thing in the library looked like it could be good, but I can't get to it unless I pay for it. Otherwise, I'm not sure I'm up for learning Geology right now...! We'll see. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 16:25, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Merger proposal - Reculver Abbey

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.
The result was merge into Reculver. -- Nortonius (talk) 16:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

Almost everything that can be said about the "abbey" at Reculver is already, at the time of writing, included in the Reculver article, in the text and in references. The Reculver Abbey article is just one of dozens and dozens of stub articles created by one editor, without reference to its separate viability, hence the merger proposal. Nortonius (talk) 15:04, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The articles were merged by editor Starzynka, who created the Reculver Abbey article, per this diff. Nortonius (talk) 16:42, 16 September 2010 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Roman watch tower and lighthouse?

I removed mention of Romans having a watch tower and lighthouse at Reculver per this diff, because I could find no mention of either in Philp, B., The Excavation of the Roman Fort at Reculver, Kent, KARU, 2005, and Philp seems to be the best source for the archaeology of Roman Reculver. Nor have I seen mention of them anywhere else. They were added to the article, strictly speaking unsourced, per this diff of December 2006, though mention of Philp's book was first added in the same edit, by an editor who has been inactive since February 2008. If you can pinpoint an adequate source - maybe I've simply missed them in Philp's book - and add them back, that would be fine by me. Nortonius (talk) 22:44, 8 December 2010 (UTC)

I think the confusion is that the Roman fort was subsequently reused as a watchtower and lighthouse, as per eg Timbs - whether the latter is just a reference to Trinity House putting the vanes on the church I don't know, it's the kind of thing that wouldn't surprise me. On the other hand, it's not inconceivable that the Romans did have a lighthouse there, but I'd tend to the reuse theory. Le Deluge (talk) 13:02, 9 December 2010 (UTC)
Ah yes, Timbs! That'll be where they're from, he uses the words in question, well done and thanks - but, I've looked at him before, and he's deeply untrustworthy! Which will probably be why I'd forgotten that he mentions a watch tower and lighthouse... For example, on the basis of no evidence that I know of (and I did once check through all of this, back when I was wondering what might be done about the Reculver Castle article, which used Timbs as a source IIRC), he has Reculver become a "principal seat of the Saxon Kings" - possible, maybe even likely, but there's no evidence for such a stark statement. Worse, he says that Æthelberht of Kent "retired with his Court" to Reculver, giving his "Palace at Canterbury" to St. Augustine & co., and that he died and was buried at Reculver - Bede is quite clear about what Æthelberht gave to St. Augustine & co. in Canterbury, and he says nothing about the king's "palace"; and, while Bede also says nothing about Æthelberht retiring (i.e. "withdrawing") to Reculver, he explicitly states that the king was buried with his queen, Bertha, in Canterbury! Bede even tells us where in Canterbury his grave was! And so it goes on - Timbs has Ecgberht of Kent give Reculver to "Bapa, a priest and noble", to found the monastery there "in atonement for the murder of [Ecgberht's] two nephews", but we only know about any of this from the Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, where the priest is called "Bass", nothing is said of his nobility, and there's no mention of any connection with murdered nephews! There's more, but I'll spare you! Timbs had a lively imagination, then, and a trigger-happy approach to his sources, in view of which... Timbs' first use of "watch-tower" might well be figurative, and, though he's pretty unclear about it, I think from the context of the paragraph that he means us to think of the watch tower and lighthouse as being Roman. Anyway, he gives no sources for his claims about these features, so I'm inclined to let that sleeping dog lie, to put it mildly! Thanks for the input though, good to hear back from you. Nortonius (talk) 21:12, 9 December 2010 (UTC)

GA Review

GA toolbox
Reviewing
This review is transcluded from Talk:Reculver/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Senra (talk · contribs) 21:29, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

I shall be reviewing this article. As this will be the first article I have reviewed against the GA criteria, I have recruited a mentor, Aircorn (talk · contribs) --Senra (Talk) 21:29, 16 December 2011 (UTC)

My review is based on this version of the article. In general, the article is well written and I feel it deserves serious consideration as a good article. I will be judging the article against the Good article criteria. However, I see some issues that need addressing first. Please do not be discouraged by the amount of detail below. Most are simple to fix. In any case, the holidays are close and I have no deadline --Senra (Talk) 18:27, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

General
  • [Criteria 1b]
*Sections: Consider including additional sections and arrange the existing sections according to "how to write about settlements". This is also demonstrated in the following good articles, which we encourage editors to read, listed in order of most recently promoted
  • The information is a little confused in places. For example toponymy in the geography section which should be in the history section and is Wildlife really geography? Perhaps it is. SSSI's are a notable sites sub-section within a landmarks section
Noted, e.g. I'll move toponymy to become the first sub-section under "History"( Done). Moving SSSIs etc. to a "Landmarks" section is no problem,( Done) as you also indicate that this is where much of the church history could go.( Done) I note that Ditton, Kent has a main section "Ditton Nature Reserve" - perhaps I could something similar here, merging subsections "Wildlife" and "Country park" into a new main section, "Reculver Country Park"?( Done) Nortonius (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "... merging subsections "Wildlife" and "Country park" into a new main section, "Reculver Country Park" is fine for GA though FA tend to hold you more firmly to your topic guideline thus putting these as [a] sub-section(s) within Landmarks as part of Notable sites of tourism (though with your own heading) --Senra (Talk) 17:54, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Ah, thanks for the FA tip - then, make that "merging subsections 'Wildlife' and 'Country park' into a new subsection 'Reculver Country Park', under a new main section 'Landmarks'"?( Done) Nortonius (talk) 18:22, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed going by my own one FA experience and my own interpretation of FA criteria 2b where I take appropriate structure, for settlement articles such as this one, to mean "complies with how to write about settlements" --Senra (talk) 22:45, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
All struck --Senra (talk) 18:27, 25 December 2011 (UTC)


  • [Optional]
  • Block quotes should be in-line attributed as per {{Quotation|quoted material|Author|Title|Publication}}
Looking at quotations of Leland again, of course quotations should be attributed directly to him, whereas he did not publish - this was done by later editors. How about this: {{Quotation|quoted material|John Leland|"Itinerary", ''volume 6''}} (i.e. with "volume 6" in italics)? Or maybe scrub the "volume 6" bit.( Done - but see what you think?) Anyway I think I'll add Thomas Hearne's 1711 edition of this volume to the Bibliography, and re-jig existing inline citations for Leland to point there.( Done) Nortonius (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Oops I've missed that one - that's something I check carefully when adding stuff myself, optional but I'm keen to fix!( Done) Nortonius (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Infobox
{{Infobox UK place}}
  • [Optional]

:* Is the surface area (|area_total_sq_mi= and |area_footnotes=) of the settlement known?

The 2001 census area is given here as about 7.2km2, but this area goes its own sweet way in relation to all other relevant areas that I know of, i.e. the ecclesiastical parish, the civil parish (which is actually Herne Bay CP) and the electoral ward (which conversely is called Reculver, but takes in much of Herne Bay!); so, I'm minded to leave that out...? Nortonius (talk) 18:24, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Firstly, you cite office for National Statistics (ONS) for the 2001 census and therefore an area cited to the same source helps readers gauging the size of Reculver in relation to their own settlement and secondly, {{Infobox UK place}} will automatically add the population density if you include an area parameter. Any differences between historical area, political area or geographic area can be dealt with in the body of the article in the history, governance and geography sections respectively --Senra (talk) 20:15, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Sounds good! I'll get on it when I've had some shuteye...!( Done) Nortonius (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 17:54, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
  • The grid reference (|os_grid_reference=TR224693) specifies a 100 m square. Is this reasonable for the settlement? If not, consider reducing the accuracy to 1 km (TR2269) or 10 km (TR27). See Ordnance Survey National Grid for the finer detail
I've reduced the grid ref to TR2269, per your suggestion. Nortonius (talk) 18:24, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 20:17, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Is there a council web site (|website=) for the settlement?
Not that I've seen - web presence is covered by Canterbury City Council (as demonstrated frequently in the article), and web searches for "Herne Bay council" and "Herne Bay parish council" return nothing useful. Nortonius (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes, the Reculver ward councillors are mentioned in the article and linked via www.canterbury.gov.uk - directly regarding the present issue, I think perhaps best to use nothing then, rather than confusing people by sending them to a website for somewhere else? Reculver is only found at www.canterbury.gov.uk by searching, one way or another. Nortonius (talk) 18:30, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Lead
  • [Criteria 1a, 1b]
  • Is Herne Bay the main county town? Consider additionally locating the settlement from the main town/city of the county and/or (especially for international readers) London (e.g. via Boxing the compass: "... 68 miles (109 km) east-southeast by road from London")
I've re-written the first two sentences of the lead to include this info, any good? Nortonius (talk) 18:24, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed Indeed the first two sentences in this version are much better --Senra (talk) 20:21, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "... a small fort, probably at the time of their ..." is WP:ALLEGED and should be " ... a small fort, at the time of their ..." (providing it is attributed in the body somewhere)
I've deleted "probably", now reads "a small fort at the time of their" - I thought the comma could go too. Nortonius (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
History
  • [Criteria mainly 1a]
  • Overall, history seems rather long though would be shorter if the church is moved as suggested below
I've now done this per below. Nortonius (talk) 13:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Watch out for WP:PEACOCK phrases such as "... and a well known Roman fort". Well known by whom? Better is "... a Roman fort". There may be other similar issues in the article
I've removed "well known" and I'm keeping an eye out for similar, though I note "2nd opinion" section below. Nortonius (talk) 18:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck as done --Senra (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
I think the only remaining candidate for "peacock" phrases is "uniquely detailed", in section "Prehistoric and Roman": I can't supply a direct quote for this, but e.g. two of the sources in the relevant inline citation both read "epigraphically, its importance lies in the fact that this is the first time the inscribed phrase aedes principiorum can be applied to and identified with the official shrine of the headquarters buildings, hitherto unmentioned in any inscription. It is also the first certain instance of the application of the name basilica to a military crosshall, although the resemblance between these buildings and a civil basilica has often been stressed."(my bold). So the plaque is "uniquely detailed", and my tired brain tells me that this really is a suitable and even ideal way of describing it...? Nortonius (talk) 13:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck as done. I have probably put you through the mill on this one. As I said elsewhere we all find this hard because sources read this way --Senra (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "Presumably the fort was built at Reculver ..."? Presumed? By whom? Better is "The fort was built at Reculver ..."
I've re-written that sentence and moved it to the preceding para, viz: "The fort's location at the north-eastern extremity of mainland Kent was strategic, lying as it did "at the main point of contact in the system [of [[Saxon Shore]] forts]".<ref>Cotterill, J. (1993), "Saxon Raiding and the Role of the Late Roman Coastal Forts of Britain", ''Britannia'' '''24''', p. 236.</ref>", any good? Nortonius (talk) 18:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck as done. --Senra (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "it is believed from ..."? Believed by whom? Better is simply "... from ..."
I've re-written the sentence thus: "Roman forts were normally accompanied by a civilian settlement, or "''[[vicus]]''", and "it is clear that significant Roman structures and features existed"<ref>{{harvnb|Philp|2005|page=95}}.</ref> outside the north and west sides of the fort, mostly in areas now lost to the sea, and that the ''vicus'' at Reculver was extensive.<ref>{{harvnb|Philp|2005|pages=95–7}}.</ref>" I've also moved it to the preceding para, where I think it really belongs. Nortonius (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "... abandoned in the 360s". Is that what the source said? Even so, how about "... abandoned circa 360"
I've made "abandoned in the 360s" into a direct quote from the source, with an adjacent inline citation - personally I don't have a problem with "in the 360s"...? Nortonius (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "According to Domesday Book, in 1086 the Archbishop of Canterbury ..." is vague. Consider "In 1086 the Archbishop of Canterbury ..."
I've re-written that bit, any good? (I'll be commenting on comparative incomes where you raise them, below) Nortonius (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed I am not a wordsmith like Malleus but shouldn't it be "The Domesday ..." not just "Domesday ..."? Anyway, struck as done --Senra (talk) 15:56, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
My own, hoary experience indicates a preference for just "Domesday Book", though usage does vary, even in academic circles! Nortonius (talk) 18:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "Reculver remained an unusually large and valuable parish ...". Unusually large by whose standards? For example, "Ely was the 'second richest monastery in England'" (Turner 2003, p. 13)
I've removed "unusually" - "large" is obvious I think, though you don't question it? Nortonius (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Actually I do as in "Unusually large by whose standards?". I have the same difficulty in my articles. For example, I am currently re-reading Schama (2000) and he uses inexact language such as "large numbers of them ..." and "'almost certainly intended for ...". These are not encyclopaedic terms as per our MOS#words to watch. Incidentally, "Unusually large" is perfect if quoted from the source; it just cannot stand on its own, otherwise it could be challenged --Senra (talk) 15:56, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Duh, sorry, of course you do! Blind again... Understood about Schama (2000) etc., it is a problem. But! I've re-written this with a direct quotation and re-arranged the paras, so the bit in question now reads "By the 13th century Reculver parish provided an ecclesiastical [[benefice]] of "exceptional wealth",<ref>{{harvnb|Graham|1944|page=1}}.</ref> which led to disputes between [[wikt:lay#Adjective|lay]] and Church interests.<ref>{{harvnb|Graham|1944|pages=1–12}}.</ref>". Better? Nortonius (talk) 18:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck as done --Senra (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "The church was significantly enlarged over time ...". Better is "The church was enlarged over time ..." or "The church was 'significantly' enlarged over time ..." quoting significantly providing it is attributed
I've changed "significantly" to "considerably" per the source, which now has an inline citation at the sentence. Nortonius (talk) 18:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "perhaps originally an open-air preaching cross, like the Ruthwell Cross, around which the monastery was later built.". Perhaps is vague and also this sentence is not clear. Does it mean that "... an open-air preaching cross like the Ruthwell Cross. The monastery was built around the Ruthwell Cross". Consider "originally an open-air preaching cross—similar to Ruthwell Cross—around which the monastery was later built"
How about this version: "In 1927 archaeologists discovered what was believed to be the base of the cross, which was dated to the 7th century, but earlier than the monastery.[50] The Reculver cross has been compared with the Ruthwell Cross – an open-air preaching cross in Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland – and it has been suggested that the monastery at Reculver was built around its cross.[51]"? I've saved it, but I'll look at it again if you think I need to! Nortonius (talk) 16:04, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Words are not my strength :( I will give it a go. Consider "In 1927 archaeologists discovered what was believed to be the base of a 7th–century cross[50] which it has been suggested that the Reculver monastery was built around in 669.[51] This Reculver cross has been compared with the Ruthwell Cross—an open-air preaching cross in Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.[ref]". I messed up your references, sorry. In addition, I sometimes find reminding myself of the Five Ws when telling a story --Senra (talk) 21:29, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Actually, I think that's a very good suggestion! :) It was one of those awkward, too-much-information sentences... I suggest using it with minor tweaks thus: "In 1927 archaeologists discovered what was believed to be the base of a 7th–century cross,[50] and it has been suggested that Reculver monastery was built around ?it(or "this cross"?) in 669.[51] This Reculver cross has been compared with the Ruthwell Cross—an open-air preaching cross in Dumfries and Galloway, Scotland.[ref]" Hm? Don't you worry about the refs, I'll take care of those suckers (sorry, just been watching The Sopranos with a mate!). Nortonius (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck (AGF on whether it is in the article yet as I'm tired too) --Senra (talk) 03:53, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Thanks, I've now changed the article almost exactly as above. Nortonius (talk) 12:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "A map of about 1630 shows ..." better is "A circa 1630 map shows ..."
I've made "about 1630" into a direct quote from the source, with an adjacent inline citation Nortonius (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "probably in the 1880s". Better is "circa 1880" although quoting "probably" is fine if that is what the source says
I've made "probably in the 1880s" into a direct quote from the source, as "probably … in 1883", with an adjacent inline citation Nortonius (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
  • [Optional]
  • "(£42.35): this value can be compared with, for example, the £20 due to the archbishop from the manor of Maidstone, and the £50 due to him from the borough of Sandwich, both of which he also held" feels like too much detail. Consider demoting this to a footnote
I think it's useful to keep these comparative values in this bit (which I'm planning to move to a new subsection under "Landmarks"), because it prepares for the subsequent statement (which is sourced) that Reculver remained an "exceptionally valuable parish in the late 13th century"...? Nortonius (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed that the comparitive values are part of the story. However, currently you have "Reculver remained a large and exceptionally valuable parish in the late 13th century, ..." which even though attributed is incorrect unless the MOS#words to watch "large and exceptionally valuable" are quoted as in "Reculver remained a "large and exceptionally valuable" parish in the late 13th century, ...". I am happy if you wish to seek a second opinion on this point --Senra (talk) 16:10, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
No second opinion needed - I've already got rid of "large and exceptionally valuable", per my comment above at "Duh, sorry, of course you do! …" (18:01, 21 December 2011 (UTC)) Nortonius (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Erm, the 2nd opinion was to help me! I have doubt :) --Senra (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
lol! I know the feeling! Sorry - I wonder if a psychologist would say that I slipped into a "pupil" role there, with you as "teacher"?! :) p.s. Would you mind if I put "large" back, per Aircorn's "2nd opinion"? Reculver was a very large parish until the 13th century, a typical "minster parish", indicating an early foundation - which obviously it was. I haven't yet found a useful RS for that at Reculver, but one may be out there...! Nortonius (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Put "large" back by all means though (IMHO), in this context and if not quoted/attributed, it seems a vague and unqualified term. Consider very large as in larger than York? Victoria is a very large Australian state; it is the 2nd largest by population and the 7th largest by area. I am taking my lead from "Puffery": "Instead of making unprovable proclamations about a subject's importance, use facts and attribution to demonstrate that importance". I do get the fact that Reculver was larger in the past than it is now. The issue I have is trying to help you say so in an encyclopaedic way. Consider these (assume all are referenced):- Unencyclopaedic:Ely Cathedral has an exceedingly grand western tower. Encyclopaedic: :Ely Cathedral has an "exceedingly grand" western tower or more fully with a quotation:John Wesley wrote of his 22 November 1774 visit to Ely that "the cathedral, [is] one of the most beautiful I have seen. The western tower is exceedingly grand, and the nave of an amazing height".. I guess I really am being tough on this one, sorry --Senra (talk) 14:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
No, that's fine! I take your point, and I'll leave it alone now unless I get an RS, in which case I'll do as you indicate. Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
RS found for "large", so I've put it back under "Monastery and church", in a direct quotation with inline citation "The monastery "developed as the [centre] of a large estate, a manor and a parish",[22]". Nortonius (talk) 13:48, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Consider moving the Church prose to a religion, landmarks or notable buildings section. It feels in the wrong place in history although leaving some church prose in history is reasonable
I thought this would take a while, and it is, so I'm working on it in a sandbox here, if you've the inclination to see what I'm doing with it: I've copied the whole article there, because it means re-working different sections. Obviously though I'll be copying it across to article space when done, so no pressure on you to look, just if you're interested! Nortonius (talk) 10:53, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
It is looking good. If you intend replacing the current contents of the article with your sandbox (when done obviously) then I recommend having a brief chat with the ever helpful Chzz (talk · contribs) using his talk page or IRC (he is on line the same time as us it seems). I have never replaced an article in the manner you are suggesting, except at article creation. I am unsure of the correct procedure to use that would preserve any relevant edit history --Senra (talk) 12:42, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Good point - though, just to be clear, I copied the whole article over only to work on this specific issue, and I plan only to copy back changes & additions, which I was expecting to indicate in the edit summary as usual. I looked at this issue when I ripped my own writing on the Roman fort out of Reculver and threw it at Regulbium, interpreting Wikipedia:Copying within Wikipedia#Where attribution is not needed as covering it. So, I expected the same to pretty much apply here, too. Though, yes it'd be good to ask Chzz, and I've been meaning to talk to him anyway! Nortonius (talk) 12:56, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Ok - I've asked Chzz, and his simple advice (here) is to copy from sandbox to article space with an edit summary something like this: "Updating section Foo and Baa; these changes were worked on here: http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=User:Nortonius/Sandbox&oldid=467499385", so that's what I'll be doing...? Nortonius (talk) 18:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Looks great to me. I saw the following earlier so might as well mention it now. Consider losing the qualifier from "Place-name authorities state that the earliest recorded form of the name ..." giving "The earliest recorded form of the name ..." because your reference group clearly attributes this to place-name authorities and therefore "Place-name authorities state that" is redundant --Senra (talk) 19:30, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
I've now done this: most church history is now under "Landmarks" > "Ruined church of St Mary", leaving only a summary under "History". This does mean some duplication, but I suppose that's unavoidable, and I've done my best to word duplicated info differently, besides it being more detailed under the new "Ruined..." section anyway. I've also taken up your tip re redundant place-name authorities! Nortonius (talk) 13:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
  • A tourist section within history is rather odd. Perhaps relegate to a culture section
I've dispersed most elements of the tourist section to "Economy" and "Country park", under "Landmarks", and removed others (I think?! It's a complex change...). Nortonius (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck as done --Senra (talk) 15:39, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Economy
  • [Criteria 4]
  • "Seasalter Shellfish (Whitstable) Ltd.," seems like WP:SPAM
I've removed the company's name from the text, but kept the inline citation for the official website. Nortonius (talk) 18:39, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
I have struck this as done (for GA) though I suspect the reference "'Seasalter Shellfish (Whitstable) Limited'. (2008). oysterhatchery.com. Retrieved 15 December 2011" is still SPAM, not RS and not encyclopaedic. The body prose is now great. Referencing a newspaper article, mentioning the Oyster company by name, would completely fix this issue. In fact, if you can source the fact that Oysters have been harvested (or farmed? Not sure of the term) for a long time, that would be encyclopaedic. See for example Reculver branch line and The Times 5 March 1866 p. 11 issue 25437 col B --Senra (talk) 20:36, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
I never did like Spam... How about this source as a ref? I've already used it in the article, re "marine vomit" (ugh!), and it's not directly related to the "shellfish company", but it happens to mention a "marine biologist Dr John Hayes, of Reculver-based Seasalter Shellfish"... Nortonius (talk) 14:29, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed newspaper is better than linking to the company --Senra (talk) 15:36, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Education

[Criteria 1a]

  • "Reculver Church of England Primary School is adjacent to the church at Hillborough and ..." seems odd. Why is Reculvers primary school in Hillborough and where is Hillborough? Perhaps "... nearby Hillsborough ..." at least but consider further explanation
I've now explained this in the first sentence of the "Education" section. Nortonius (talk) 14:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "... pupils.[83] According to a subsequent "Section 8" report,[84] of November 2011, the school had made" is clunky. Consider "... pupils;[83] in a "Section 8" report[84] of November 2011, the school had made ..."
This bit now reads "…pupils.[130] A "Section 8" report[131] of November 2011 described progress at the school as "satisfactory … [Provisional] results in the 2011 national tests [showed] an upward swing, bringing attainment broadly in line with national averages."[130]" Any good? Nortonius (talk) 14:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Transport
  • [Criteria 3]
  • Is Reculver reachable by sea? Now? In earlier times? The Danes invaded but did they land at Reculver?
"reachable by sea" - in general terms, not now, unless you run a dinghy ashore or get beached! Even historically, (current) Footnote no.25 says "a map dated 1685 describes what then remained of the inlet on the north-western side as 'a place anciently for a harber of ships, called now The Old Pen'.(with ref)" - so, that was gone even then. I could add a sentence based on that? Though, there might be more - the pub name "Hoy & Anchor" is suggestive of a local occupational trade, like sailing Thames barges in a later era. Hmmm! Sourcing more could be problematical though.
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 15:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
"the Danes" - I've seen no explicit mention of Danes at Reculver, only in Kent more widely. Obviously I may be missing something in "recent" historiography (there are one or two things out there that I haven't seen, and that might have something to say, I've made a resource request for one especially enticing thing). But essentially Reculver disappears from the record (I think!) while the Danes are around, and only pops up again after Alfred and successors have taken over and united England, i.e. after the Danes have been properly duffed up. Nortonius (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
I recall reading something somewhere about Danes but now can't find it; they did sack lots of other monastery's. Perhaps they missed this one. Anyway, was struck :) --Senra (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Was there a toll road? Is Reculver on any of the 18th century coach routes? If not, what is the nearest 18th–century coaching inn? See for example Cary, John (1817), Cary's New itinerary; or, An accurate delineation of the great roads ... throughout England and Wales; with many of the principal roads in Scotland etc, His Majesties Postmaster General
Are you happy that we've established most of this? i.e. No toll road; no direct coaches; nearest coaching inn probably at end of (local) route from Sturry, i.e. at Herne Bay, or failing that at Sturry itself (I imagine a coach and horses from Sturry would've needed a base of some sort at Herne Bay, at least for refreshment/resting of horses and driver...?). I think we're only waiting for more on that last bit, some time in the new year, per this? Nortonius (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck. Struck so ignore this. I feel that Sturry's Coaching Inn attributed to Cary is notable and worth mentioning --Senra (talk) 15:07, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
I'm with you on the Sturry coaching inn's notability - but I'll hang on for now, hoping that my resource request re coach from there to Herne Bay is resolved soon, as promised. I suspect that'll save me some fancy writing followed by fancy re-writing! Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Legends

[Optional though likely Criteria 2]

Moved to "Culture" & substantially altered, thoughts...? Nortonius (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed though as stated elsewhere ([1] from "I'm no expert here"), this might need to be reviewed as part of a later FA --Senra (talk) 20:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Geography
  • [Criteria 1a]
  • We are not convinced the first paragraph is about geography as history seems to be mixed in with it. Is it possible to move the history prose from here to history?
I've done as suggested. Nortonius (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck as done --Senra (talk) 22:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "... In ancient times it lay on ..." is vague. Use Bronze Age or whatever
I've changed this to "In the [[British Iron Age|Iron Age]] it lay…". Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 19:10, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
  • "clayey"? Fair enough. It is in the OED; in that entry their latest quotation using "clayey" is from an 1878 publication
I suspect "clayey" here is ongoing geology jargon, judging by the source in the related inline reference - this section was kindly added by Le Deluge, per this diff, and it seemed clear to me that Le Deluge knew what they were talking about in Geology, with all due respect to the OED! See also e.g. this - RS for "clayey" from 2009. My impression of the OED's "latest quotation" is that it can be from when a word became established, and is not designed to show whether it remains current. They have other ways of doing that. Jargon or not, though, I think the word remains "intelligible" as "like clay", and is not demanding. Nortonius (talk) 03:07, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck as compliant based on your above response. My point is that we need to be aware of using old unquoted words even if sourced. "Clayey" is 1024. The modern geological term appears to be "pelolithic" (OED). I have the same issue using many 18th and 19th century sources in my articles. By the way, I agree that for me at least, "clayey" has more meaning than "pelolithic" :) --Senra (talk) 12:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Yes indeed! And thanks. Though, since you put it that way, I'd wikilink "clayey", if only I could pipe an article "Pelolithic", or a relevant Wiktionary entry! Nortonius (talk) 14:05, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Images

[Criteria 6a]

Great tip! I've "updated" the "rationale" for Fred C. Palmer's death date at the above images, with what I suppose is some pretty clear synthesis, but I've no idea how it goes re that at WikiCommons... That aside, I'm pretty sure I've nailed his death in 1935 (it was kinda fun, too!), which would mean it's ok for copyright. Have a look anyway, see what you think? Maybe it won't float, but I tried...! Gah! I looked for a Frederick Palmer on WP, but couldn't find anything, despite what it said in the file descriptions - of course, now I've found it (Sod's Law), and it says he retired after also having a base in Swindon! I'll look into it further anyway... Nortonius (talk) 23:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Ok - the WP page for Frederick C. Palmer says he died in 1939, so I've "updated" the file descriptions to reflect that, but it ain't over yet - see this, if you have the time/energy/inclination/stomach for it! Thing is, I might've been on the right track with my self-struck previous edit after all, we'll see, but is that enough to cover the "public domain" bit (1939+70=2009), or should this still be held? Thoughts on a postcard! ;) Nortonius (talk) 01:35, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
The key point is that I asked the question and you have made best endeavours to look into it and you have replaced believed :) --Senra (talk) 03:47, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Yay! :) Nortonius (talk) 12:06, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
  • All other images in this version of the article are each confirmed to have a valid source and license
  • [Criteria 6b]
  • Consider putting the date and source of File:OldMapKent.jpg in the caption so the reader does not have to click through to find out
I've done as you suggest. Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 19:10, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
  • It is OK and even desirable to wikilink within captions such as Margate
I've wikilinked as I think appropriate? Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 19:10, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
I've added an inline citation, to a photograph dated 1928 in a journal article - it's the only RS I've found for this! Any good? Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck --Senra (talk) 19:10, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
I've removed the headstone image, really it was just a "pretty picture"! I think all others are directly relevant? Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck. I would still consider File:Reculver-plaque.jpg placed in the references section as unusual but as this is mentioned further down, this issue is struck --Senra (talk) 19:10, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
  • [Optional]
* We suggest that the placement of the images are staggered, right and left, as per the example GA articles listed at the beginning
This is weird: Wikipedia:Manual of Style/Images#Location says "Do not place images on the left at the start of any section or subsection. Images on the left must be placed somewhere after the first paragraph." It then links to this version of "Timpani", where this rule is broken in the section "In the modern ensemble" – a contradiction, no? And I see that the current version of "Somerton" also appears to break this rule, in the section "Religious sites". Any thoughts? I'll happily break this rule if for some reason it's no longer deemed to apply, but...! Am I missing something?! In the meantime, there doesn't seem to be a way to stagger images at Reculver without breaking this rule. Hmm! Nortonius (talk) 13:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Optional anyway so struck from this review. This is not a GA criteria, hence optional. I am taking my lead from FA articles such as this small biased random selection Herne Bay, Kent (promoted version), Covent Garden (promoted version) and Larrys Creek (promoted version) --Senra (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
References

(all relating to this version of the article)

* [Criteria 3] (but this may be a pit picky)

  • In general, the article is well referenced with high quality sources, though there are exceptions as noted below. In addition, consider PEVSNER'S (1951–1974) The buildings of England and also British History On-Line which, incidentally leads us to ask whether Hugh de Reculver or Reculverland are significant to the settlement.
I've added Pevsner and "Hugh-de-Reculver-related" queries to my most recent resource request (the latter about an intriguing ref to Reaney, The Place-Names of Essex!). And, thanks to you making me look again, I've just spotted that Thomas Becket's career included holding the prebend of Reculversland! Obviously I need to do something with that - though, it'll make the "history" section even longer! ;) Nortonius (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
I would be astounded if you managed to get an on-line version of PEVSNER The Buildings of England:Kent via WP:RX. My suggestion to consult these sources has been struck for this review as being too picky --Senra (talk) 15:26, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
In anticipation that you may wish (outside this GA review of course) to pursue what PEVSNER may have said about Reculver, I have today ordered from the library a photocopy of the Reculver page or pages within Newman J (1983) North east and east Kent (Pevsner architectural guides: The buildings of England) --Senra (talk) 16:22, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Ah, fantastic, thank you! :) You're a star! I'll remove that from the relevant resource request. Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
My library kindly read me the details over the phone from: Newman, John (1976). North East and East Kent (Pevsner Architectural Guides: Buildings of England). Penguin. p. 430. Retrieved 24 December 2011. as follows (rough transcription) ...
  • ST MARY'S ABBEY Saxon. Late 7th century. St Augustine. Almost intact in 1809. Mr C C Nailor's mother persuaded him to tear down the building for a poppet show. Little more than the foundation, two towers and west façade remain ... a little on the 7th–century history ...
  • ST MARY HILLBOROUGH 1876 by Georges Clark ...
  • ROMAN FORT a little on the fort ...
  • GATEWAY AT BROOKE FARM Elizabethan
Basically, not a lot on Reculver, sorry. What there is is definitely notable as it is mentioned in a PEVSNER architectural guide; every building listed above should be in the article, even if only a brief mention. I will not be able to get to the library today to pick up this book. The library is now closed until 3 January. I hope the above helps --Senra (talk) 11:43, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
Blimey, you've got a kind librarian! :) No problem, though - yes, I ought to say more about the church at Hillborough, I saw something about the first building of about 1809 being rubbish, and replaced "60 years later": that's not exactly "1876", but I'd bet it's the same thing. Also, I'm onto the "gateway at Brooke Farm" - belonged to Sir Wm Cheney, later Lord Cheney under Henry IV, though I know very little else, thanks! While I'm here, I've discovered the prebend of Reculverland was in Essex and belonged to St Paul's, London, so maybe worth a mention but not much from what I've seen - the name comes from the bloke "Hugh de Reculver", possibly nil else known about him but I'll see. Knock off any time for Christmas by the way, I won't be surprised if I don't hear from you again for a bit! If so, have a great one, I think we are doing great things with this article, especially thanks to your experience and wider knowledge of "places-type" sources! :) Nortonius (talk) 12:26, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

There are a few reference issues noticed

  • [Criteria 6b]
  • Is there a very good reason for including an image in the footnote section?
This was another editor's neat (or, I thought so at the time!) way of squeezing the very relevant image into the article when otherwise it wouldn't fit - I expect to be moving images around soon, so that situation may change... Nortonius (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
I've now shunted this image up to follow the previous one, so strictly it's in the "Parramatta cathedral" section, though presently it "starts" at "See also". By the way, are we happy with the "Parramatta cathedral" section? I've tried but failed to think what else to do with it - does this compare with Ditton, Kent#Ditton Nature Reserve? It's hardly a Reculver "landmark"! But I think it's worthy of inclusion in the Reculver article... Nortonius (talk) 13:17, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed struck. I had never seen an image in the references section before; that does not mean examples do not exist. It just looked odd --Senra (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
  • [Criteria 2b]
I've pointed the above references re Bede & Domesday Book elsewhere, any good? I wikilinked them originally - it does look silly now, I think I was probably just trying to be helpful at the time, no problem! :) Nortonius (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed It is fine to Wikilink Domesday Book within a citation such as {{citation}}; just not use Wikipedia as a source as you had appeared to do --Senra (talk) 16:40, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Are these web sites WP:RS? In the main they seem to rely on user-submitted information: oysterhatchery.com [71], reculver.kent.sch.uk [81], daynurseries.co.uk [85], kindergartenkids.co.uk [81] and hernebayhigh.kent.sch.uk [87]
Does [Wikipedia:Identifying reliable sources#Self published and questionable sources as sources on themselves|this]] not apply? I only included those websites (and the one for the shellfish company, now that I think of it) because I thought it did, but I'll happily delete them if I'm missing something and it doesn't!
Agreed I am happy to reconsider this for GA. On balance I may be holding you to a higher standard than is necessary for a GA review. The issue has been struck. In passing (now I really am being picky, sorry) Citing one (none notable?) company (in this case oysterhatchery.com) will inevitably lead to the local butcher, baker and candlestick-maker inserting their own company (anyone can edit, remember?) with the equivocal argument that "he did it so why can't I?"—especially when the article becomes an FA and also, how does hernebayhigh.kent.sch.uk qualify as a source for the partial statement "The nearest schools for older children are in Herne Bay ..."? --Senra (talk) 01:31, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Good point re "he did it so why can't I?", that hadn't occurred to me at the time! About the two kiddies' groups at Reculver school, I think that's reasonably ring-fenced by them being officially sanctioned, resident features at the school...? About nearest schools for older children at Herne Bay, something was bothering me about that when I stuck it in, but I was doing a bit of a "drive-by" - I'll see if I can't find some suitable LEA list online, I expect that'd be ok? Nortonius (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Sure. Struck anyway :) --Senra (talk) 21:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Ok - it's struck, but I've found no easy way to link to "local secondary schools" via the LEA's (Kent County Council) website - a reader has to do too much ad hoc searching, and there's no doi. On the other hand I did find from there that Herne Bay High School is in fact the only nearby LEA school for older children! Next nearest is in Canterbury, bloomin' miles away! So I've left the school's website linked in the relevant ref, where incidentally I noticed that I hadn't "separately" identified the web domain - I've done this now as "www.hernebayhigh.kent.sch.uk", which is obviously the officially sanctioned source, given the ".sch.uk" suffix - any good? Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
Fine, yes --Senra (talk) 19:10, 23 December 2011 (UTC)
  • [Optional]
  • Do not punctuate references such as this one <ref name=Kerr1982>{{harvnb|Kerr|1982|page=194}}.</ref>
This is another hoary habit of mine - learned at the feet of historians who have WP pages of their own these days(!) - I think it helps speed reading, in that it indicates where to stop reading a ref, especially if it's a long one. Nortonius (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Optional so struck from review --Senra (talk) 18:35, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
  • The following book citations have no page numbers (WP:CITEHOW): [8], [28], [29], [37], and [53] etc. We stopped looking after reference [53] so there may be more
I'm still to look properly at this one, but note that I can supply page numbers in many (most?) cases.( Done) In some cases though (especially Gough 2001) there are no page numbers to give. Nortonius (talk) 12:56, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
Optional so struck from this review --Senra (talk) 18:35, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Optional so struck from review --Senra (talk) 18:35, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Bibliography
  • [Optional]
  • The bibliography should be ordered alphabetically by |last=. See WP:CITE (under parenthetical referencing)
Erm... I think it is already? :) By all means show me if I'm being blind! Nortonius (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Agreed my bad. In the version I reviewed Gough (1992) spilled over two lines showing the publisher Boydell at the start of the second line. I should learn to read. Sorry --Senra (talk) 16:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
No problem - my own eye/brain/hand co-ordination has been way off kilter today, producing all sorts of garbage - this ranks as totally insignificant by comparison! :) Nortonius (talk) 23:23, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
  • Remove periods (e.g. |last=Witney |first=K.P.) as the {{citation}} template being used puts these in or not depending on parameters set
Another good tip - ok hopefully I'll get around to it soon. Nortonius (talk) 15:33, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Sorry, I haven't been able to spot how to do this, so I've left it for now... Help...? Nortonius (talk) 14:18, 25 December 2011 (UTC)
Optional so struck from this review. The FA criteria expects consistency and any consistent style can be used. If you prefer the K.P. form then, for FA, providing ALL first names use this same form throughout it is not an issue --Senra (talk) 18:25, 25 December 2011 (UTC)

Result

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, andhere for what they are not)

A very nice article. This is the current status which is expected to change after above detailed issues have been addressed--Senra (Talk) 18:28, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

  1. It is reasonably well written.
    a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):
    Structure, WP:LEAD, WP:VAGUE, minor WP:MoS
  2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.
    a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):
    Some WP:RS and WP:CITEHOW queries
  3. It is broad in its coverage.
    a (major aspects): b (focused):
    I have marked focus down until excessive religion in history is moved as per above detailed comments
  4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.
    Fair representation without bias:
  5. It is stable.
    No edit wars, etc.:
  6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.
    a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):
    Two images to check; query non staggered location; captions need a little attention
  7. Overall:
    Pass/Fail:

If you have any questions, feel free to ask. I do not watch reviews, so please drop me a short note on my talk page to gain my attention--Senra (Talk) 18:27, 17 December 2011 (UTC)

There's no obvious place to comment on this in the review, so I'm putting this here and you're welcome to move it around, indent it etc. as you like: I believe that the article now meets "Criterion 2.a" (viz "Chzz's point (A)"). If you agree, then I think we may be done? Though, I note that you're waiting for feedback, which is fine obviously, I'm sure I'd want to do the same! :) Nortonius (talk) 16:56, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
This article is now a clear good article. Nortornius has done a superb job. I believed it was reasonable to ask my mentor, Aircorn (talk · contribs), to confirm good article status though it may not be reasonable to ask the nominator to wait. In the spirit of WP:BOLD I therefore grant this article good article status. Well done Nortorius --Senra (talk) 21:32, 26 December 2011 (UTC)
Haha, thank you, kind words indeed! But, well done to you too, Senra! A first time for both of us, which resulted in an excellent collaborative effort, IMHO - thank you very much for your own hard work, incisive comments and suggestions of all sorts! It's getting a bit late in the evening for me to do much more than tinker today, so I'll enjoy a glass of something nice, and ponder how to fit in all that other stuff...! Speak later. :) Nortonius (talk) 21:57, 26 December 2011 (UTC)


Some comments about referencing

Just passing through...

Referencing does need improving, definitely. There's a few issues with them;

  • (A) There's various bits and pieces that are hanging there, apparently unreferenced. Mostly, at the end of paragraphs - hence they can't be covered by another ref. Such as, Reculver#Bouncing_bombs ends with Others are on display in Dover Castle and in the Spitfire & Hurricane Memorial Museum at the former RAF Manston, on the Isle of Thanet., or Reculver#Parramatta_cathedral ending with A stone from Reculver was presented to St John's Cathedral by the Historic Building and Monuments Commission for England – now English Heritage – in 1990.
  • (B) Whilst it isn't essential to add references for every sentence, it is a good idea, because text can get split via later additions. For example, if someone writes Chzz is English. Chzz likes tea.[123] and later, someone adds another fact: Chzz is English. Chzz is 73 years old. Chzz likes tea.[123] - it is unclear whether that new fact is covered within the same reference. It might be, but it's hard to tell. So, for example, in this paragraph, I'll indicate where I'd rather see refs;

During the Second World War, the Reculver coastline was one location used to test Barnes Wallis's "bouncing bomb" prototypes.REF Different, inert versions of the bomb were tested at Reculver, leading to the development of the operational version known as "Upkeep".[77] It was this bomb which was used by the RAF's 617 Squadron in Operation Chastise, otherwise known as the "Dambuster raids", in which dams in the Ruhr district of Germany were attacked on the night of 16–17 May 1943 by formations of Lancaster bombers.REF The operation was led by Wing Commander Guy Gibson, for which he was awarded the Victoria Cross.REF On 17 May 2003, a Lancaster bomber overflew the Reculver testing site to commemorate the 60th anniversary of the exploit.[78]

  • (C) Also, there is confusion caused by this footnoting style, because some parts only have a footnote, and have no reference; the footnote has a reference (as it should), but it isn't clear whether that is a reference only covering the claims in the footnote, or for the claims within the text. For example,

A story which has been told many times, incorporating varying details, but following essentially the same course, concerns the origin of a byname for the Reculver towers, as the "Twin Sisters".[nb 32]

---

Footnote

^ This byname is also found as "The Sisters" and the "Two Sisters", but the towers are also sometimes known as simply "The Reculvers".[105]

Now, in that case, I'm sure the footnote covers the fact that the byname is used. However, does it cover the fact in the text - e.g. that the tale "has been told many times"?

Thus it is my opinion that everything in the body-text that happens to have a footnote should also have a reference. That's what I've seen elsewhere; for example, see the recently featured article School for Creative and Performing Arts#Background,

...most robust magnet programs in the country.[10]a[›]

...first public school that combined all of the arts in a single program.[12]b[›]

 Chzz  ►  17:27, 18 December 2011 (UTC)

Comment Excellent points though before we give this editor apoplexy, can I check something first please. I did carefully check references against the "good article criteria" (not FA standard) and critically in this context "what the good article criteria are not". In particular [Criteria 2a, 2b & 2c] says, in part, "This standard is higher than the absolute minimum standard set by policy, but noticeably lower than many editors' personal preferences" and also "it provides in-line citations from reliable sources for direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons" which I thought this article adhered to. I did notice, as you did, that some references within the article are in the middle of sentences but in my opinion, I felt this was acceptable for GA. I do, of course, accept that I may have been wrong --Senra (Talk) 00:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Further comment
I know this is my first GA as a reviewer but I did read up carefully. In particular, I read the following :
Mistakes to avoid
  • Imposing personal preference on reference section headings.
  • Asking for inline citations beyond those required by the criteria, in particular, asking for "more" inline citations even though all statements in the required categories are already cited. (Inline citations are not decorative elements, and GA does not have any "one citation per sentence" or "one citation per paragraph" rules.)
  • Not checking at least a substantial proportion of sources to make sure that they actually support the statements they're purported to support. (Sources should not be "accepted in good faith": for example, nominators may themselves have left prior material unchecked by assuming good faith.)
  • Requiring page numbers where these are not essential.
  • Demanding the removal of dead links, in direct violation of WP:Linkrot and WP:DEADREF
  • Requiring the use (or non-use) of citation templates.
  • Requiring consistently formatted, complete bibliographic citations. (If you are able to figure out what the source is, that's a good enough citation for GA.)
... and I had, for example, required page-numbers but on reading the above I moved the page number requirement to [Optional]. @Chzz, I feel, may be straying into "Asking for inline citations beyond those required by the criteria, ..." but of course, I may be wrong.
--Senra (Talk) 00:21, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
I downgraded [Criteria 2a] to fail on the basis of the comments by Chzz above. This now requires the article to be improved to meet [Criteria 2a] or Chzz reduces the, in my opinion, stricter interpretation --Senra (Talk) 00:33, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Senra, yes, sorry; I should have made my comments clearer. I was not necessarily saying that any of my comments were required for GA; they were general comments/suggestions for improving the article. I don't tend to separate the two, because I see the primary objective of the GA-review process itself as a way of improving the article and, wherever possible, getting it headed towards FA.
There were three bullet-points in my comments above, which I've just labelled as (A) (B) and (C) for convenience of discussion here;
I'd say (A) was a requirement, (B) certainly is not and is indeed "asking for inline citations beyond those required by the criteria" - mea culpa, but I did say it wasn't essential.
(C) is more debatable; as I said, my opinion is that something that has no actual inline reference but only has a reference on the end of a foontote (such as, in the example, [nb 32]) is not appropriately referenced. But I do accept that others might consider it acceptable.
I agree with some aspects of the essay "What the Good article criteria are not" but, I'd like to imagine it means, "do not fail an article for things outside the GA criteria" - quite right but there is nothing wrong in suggestions that go beyond the criteria, as long as a) it doesn't piss off the author, and b) they're not used in deciding GA pass/fail.
So: What I should have made clear was, that these were passing comments for possible improvement to the article; because I posted them on the GA1 page, I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I was judging it against GA-criteria; that wasn't my intent.
Anyway, the article is improving - that's the main thing :-) Keep up the good stuff.  Chzz  ►  07:08, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Thank you. That makes it much clearer. I am sorry too if I came across rather more aggressive than I intended. This particular GA1 review is a learning experience for me as well as for the primary editor. I was concerned that your comments were indicating I had badly misinterpreted the GA criteria. I see now that, whilst I have indeed not judged the article correctly against [Criteria 2a] (your A label), the article is closer to meeting the GA criteria than your post initially implied. I do agree that we should aim as high as possible and on that basis, your points B and C are fair and reasonable. I suspect that between us, we have now given the primary editor some clear guidelines to help improve the article within the seven-day (notional in this case) deadline --Senra (Talk) 11:03, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Yep, you have! About putting inline citations before the end of the sentence (Chzz's point (A), I believe), funnily enough this is a habit which I developed in response to the exact reverse of what Chzz is concerned about (if I understand Chzz correctly), where stuff was added within a sentence, but wasn't supported by the ref at the end! When I've done this, I've placed the ref to cover that part of the sentence which is in most need, with the info "left hanging" at the end also covered, ideally at least, in the expectation that future editing will ultimately be appropriate ("no deadline" etc.). That's not to say that I can't see the concern! No, that's valid - it's just that you're asking me to change existing style within the article, QED. Obviously, though, if your consensus is that it doesn't meet criteria, I'll have to take it into consideration(!) - i.e., I won't be "pissed off", I'll just get on and change it! :) Nortonius (talk) 15:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC)
Again sorry for arriving late on the scene. All the comments are good, however I must respectfully disagree with Chzz about referencing. This is not the place to get into too much detail about best practices, but the cite every sentence has been discussed elsewhere at length and the consensus was that it is not necessary and many were actually against doing so. I feel the others have probably been mentioned there too.
In a good article on a town we only ask that citations are provided for "direct quotations, statistics, published opinion, counter-intuitive or controversial statements that are challenged or likely to be challenged, and contentious material relating to living persons". There is a little but of leeway with likely to be challenged, but in theory everything else does not need a reference to pass as a good article. I personally like to see at least one citation per paragraph and while I would not fail an article for citing every sentence my personal preference for a paragraph that has one source would be to cite any sentence that falls under the above criteria (eg a direct quote) plus a single reference somewhere within the paragraph to indicate where the information came from. Usually the best place is at the end of the paragraph, but there are occasions when it fits better somewhere else. The bottom line for reviewers is that the information presented is relatively easy to match up to the source, and in the example given under (B), as long as the uncited sentence information is referenced by source 77 or 78, it would not be difficult for a reviewer to check.
In regards to footnotes I would follow the same general rule of thumb, how easy is it to figure out where the information came from. Since this is not part of the criteria and it is debateable whether it is even best practise I would be reluctant to insist on Chzz's suggested changes as part of gaining good article status. Of couse if there is an instance where it is reasonably difficult to match the information up to the source then it should be fixed in that instance. AIRcorn (talk) 20:15, 20 December 2011 (UTC)
By the way, can someone respond to my comment just above (15:05, 19 December 2011 (UTC))? I'm unclear if my comment has changed anything, and where exactly I should be looking in the review, either way! Sorry if I'm being dim...! :) Nortonius (talk) 14:12, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Does this help? My own issue is that I have already changed my mind once and Chzz makes fair points. Therefore Chzz's point A remains. However, if that issue is all that is left at the end of the review, the article will not fail --Senra (talk) 16:26, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Ah, yes, those links clear the fog a bit, thanks; but I still don't see any explicit mention in the body of the review about "criteria 2a", and how it "fails"? Really sorry, don't mean to be difficult etc., it's just that I can't see what I need to do, though maybe I'm just being blind again! :( Btw, I don't mind a bit if that means adding something to the body of the review, if that's "allowed"...? Nortonius (talk) 17:38, 21 December 2011 (UTC)
Sorry if this is unclear. Basically, Chzz's point A still stands—"There's various bits and pieces that are hanging there, apparently unreferenced. Mostly, at the end of paragraphs - hence they can't be covered by another ref".
  • In detail: unlike a FAC, a GA review is usually carried out by one editor. This is not written in stone and indeed, anyone can comment or add-to the review as Chzz did. Following "Some comments about referencing" by Chzz [3] and [4], I answered seeking clarification [5], [6] and (especially) my fail of criteria 2a. Chzz then clarified [7] after which I emphasised that Chzz's point A was valid (i.e. [Criteria 2a]) but Chzz's points B and C, whilst valid, held you to a higher standard than GA demands and thus could safely be ignored. Aircorn then came along and (essentially) disagreed with all of Chzz's points [8] and [9] but backed me up [10] and [11] so Chzz's point A still stands. The review itself (the text above Result) has not been re-factored, which might be your confusion. However, the Result section was changed as a failure of [Criteria 2a] thus requiring you to adjust the article to meet Chzz's comments (A only, not B & C). However, my mentor, Aircorn made a strong case (especially linking to this: discussed elsewhere at length) and I have thus promised that I will not fail the article for GA if Chzz's point A (which, by the way, to really add to your confusion, I agree could be an issue) is the only remaining problem at the end of the review. Thus, should you wish to, just ignore Chzz's point A.
--Senra (talk) 20:16, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Yes that helps a lot, and doesn't add to my confusion, don't worry and big thanks for explaining it so fully and carefully: main thing (for my presently tired & fuzzy brain!) is you've latched on to the source of my confusion precisely, which I described as "I still don't see any explicit mention in the body of the review about 'criteria 2a'"! :) I fully note your pointers re what I can ignore, though I expect that I'll try to comb through stuff "left hanging", e'en so. Nortonius (talk) 21:14, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for causing any extra confusion. Senra has it correct, point A is not strictly required, but could make it easier to check sources in certain situations. AIRcorn (talk) 01:46, 22 December 2011 (UTC)
No problem, I was a bit blank-eyed for a spell there, but probably because I should have taken a good, long breather to clear my own head, as much as anything! :) Thanks from me for coming back on it. Nortonius (talk) 13:06, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

2nd opinion

I am seeking a 2nd opinion on words to watch

Second opinion: this reviewer is requesting another editor's input on the article. Senra (talk) 16:19, 21 December 2011 (UTC)

Aircorns opinion
I think "large" is fine and could just about live with "valuable", but "exceptionally" falls clearly into the words to watch category. If you want to keep it as written you could put a relevant quote in quotation marks or use "According to ...." (or a similar variation) within the sentence. The important thing is to make it obvious that these sorts of descriptions are not coming from us (i.e. Wikipedia). AIRcorn (talk) 01:43, 22 December 2011 (UTC)

I have been following this review and agree that it is at good article standard. I would also like to commend Senra and Nortonius on a job well done. AIRcorn (talk) 22:59, 12 January 2012 (UTC)

Reculver was once a market town

From A vision of Britain, "In 1870-72, John Marius Wilson's Imperial Gazetteer of England and Wales described Reculver like this: '[Reculver] ... takes its name from the Romanstation Regulbium; and was once a market-town'".

  • "Reculver 6227 1688. A trading centre in the seventh and eighth centuries (S. Kelly, 'Trading Privileges from Eighth-Century England', Early Medieval Europe, 1 (1992), pp. 3–28). Fair 1587, 8 Sept (Harrison, p. 395).
M (Grant: other) Thurs; mercatum, gr 6 Aug 1220, by K Hen III to archbp of Canterbury. To be held at the manor of Raculf. Mandate to the sh of Kent (C 60/12 m. 3). 1221, Nova Oblata: S. archbp of Canterbury owed one palfrey for the Thurs market. To be held at the manor of Raculf. (PR, 5 Hen III, p. 208).
M (Charter) Thurs; gr 17 Feb 1314, by K Edw II to Walter, archbp of Canterbury (CChR, 1300–26, p. 235). To be held at the manor."
See also How to read an entry in the Gazetteer of Markets and Fairs in England & Wales to 1516

--Senra (talk) 15:29, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

Haha well done! I noted self (offline) only this morning that "Edward II granted Abp. Walter a weekly Thursday market & a yearly fair on feast of St. Giles [at Reculver]", and there you are going and doing the hard work! Great, thanks, we'll work that in somehow! :) Nortonius (talk) 15:43, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
My pleasure. The above does beg some questions. If the current (2001) population is only 135 with most of those transients, what happened? How? When? Is this a candidate for Deserted medieval village or List of lost settlements in the United Kingdom? --Senra (talk) 16:03, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
It might well be a candidate for "List of lost settlements...", but... I think the magical shrinking act can easily be attributed to coastal erosion/people upping sticks to Hillborough, which is already covered in the article as you know, as for the Black Death though I have no idea, and I've not seen it mentioned. Now I come to think of it, Caroline Fenwick's The poll taxes of 1377, 1379 and 1381, Part 1 could well help here! :) Though, I remember she's got some records down under the wrong poll tax - but details, details - we can worry about that later. p.s. How long is this article going to be?! Nortonius (talk) 16:21, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
None of the above is for GA. I am sorry if this is diverting you from the GA. I will stop digging (for now).
[I've started so I'll finish, he he] Besides, I see only two sentences: "The earliest record of a market in Reculver is 6 Aug 1220, granted for Thursdays by Henry III to the archbishop of Canterbury. A charter for a Thursday market was subsequently granted by Edward II to Walter, archbishop of Canterbury, on 17 February 1314". These details all help with the compliance of the article to FA criteria 1b (comprehensiveness). After GA, keep putting (relevant) stuff in. If you break FA criteria 4 (length), you can trim detail without sacrificing coverage according to summary style. Not a concern for now :) Incidentally, I recall discussing at length an attempt to retain "Reculver remained an unusually large parish ..." and now I find it had a market. Whilst my point about WP:PEA still stands, the grant of a market would imply that unusually large has more merit than I at first thought. You could thus use the market (and fair) to help qualify an attributed "... 'unusually large' parish"
--Senra (talk) 17:25, 24 December 2011 (UTC)
All good stuff! :) But don't worry, plenty of things have a way of diverting me from GA! Though, I'll probably still be editing tomorrow, and the day after that, and...! Nortonius (talk) 17:36, 24 December 2011 (UTC)

As requested...

Lead:

  • "supposedly after daughters of Geoffrey St Clare.." Linkage?
I haven't found any mention of him, outside the legend related to the Twin Sisters - he may be pseudo-historical, or maybe I don't know my 15th century history! He might not survive FA, though I'd love to track him down if I can... Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • "Among notable residents was Robert Hunt, who celebrated the first Christian service of holy communion in what is now the United States of America, in 1607." ... this is the best you can do for notable residents? Suggest just not putting it in the lead then.
Ah ok, I thought that sounded pretty notable! Given that the place hardly exists any more, and even fellow Brits whom I know IRL hadn't heard of it, it's very notable for Reculver! But I can see that it might not be all that notable otherwise. Still, I'm surprised. Well, there's already mention in the lead of a king of Kent who was buried at Reculver, so I'll take Hunt out of the lead. Done Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

General:

  • Note Template:Efn which makes explanatory footnotes much easier.
Ah, thanks for the tip, I'm not familiar with that one: I'll have a play with it. Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Hmm, Template:Efn doesn't look appropriate here, as it marks "efns" in the text alphabetically, but there are 53 of them at the time of writing! Am I missing something? Nortonius (talk) 11:03, 28 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Generally, it's better to not use direct quotations much. I suggest rewording many of the quotations such as "it is clear that significant Roman structures and features existed" and "commanding an extensive view on all sides". As an example - the first could be paraphrased as "Roman forts were normally accompanied by a civilian settlement, or "vicus", and it is clear that such structures outside the north and west sides of the fort existed, mostly in areas now lost to the sea,...." The second could be "...and allowed observation from the fort on all sides."
Ok, on the whole that's easy to fix - I may have got quotation fever from the GAN... I do love direct quotations though, especially for things that might otherwise be words to watch, and block quotations seem a good way to go to me, when appropriate: I'll go through and try fixing everything else. Done Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • Who said that Aethelbert moved his royal court here?
Ah, just about anyone writing about Reculver before a point in the 20th century! You're suggesting someone should be named and shamed in the article? Easily done. It's legendary stuff, associated with him supposedly having been buried at Reculver, whereas Bede quite clearly says he was buried at Canterbury. Done Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
  • That's as far as I got before the constant quotations started making it hard for me to read. Strongly suggest rewording most of them in the article text to make it easier to read. Otherwise, it reads reasonably well, and seems well researched. (I'm not watching this page as I have way too many pages watchlisted already). Ealdgyth - Talk 02:10, 27 January 2012 (UTC)
Ok - sorry about the quotations, then: if they bothered you, I'd better fix them! Done And, thank you very much for having a look! Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 10:45, 27 January 2012 (UTC)

Human sacrifice

The suggestion that the bones of children found in the Roman remains are indicative of human sacrifice is highly dubious. Though an authority is cited, it is not a good one. After the Roman conquest of Britain human sacrifice was banned (indeed, a classic way of shocking the Romans was talk of human sacrifice - Diodorus, Strabo and Tacitus all lent fascination to their histories by ghoulishly recounting the Druids' involvement in it, and one of the main problems the Roman authorities had with the Christians in the early centuries AD was that reports of the Mass erroneously suggested that human sacrifice was taking place). See, for example, The Gods of the Celts by Miranda Green - the Head of Research in Humanities at the University of Wales, Newport, with a huge string of publications in archaeology, and described by the Antiquaries' Journal as "one of our leading authorities on Celtic religion", or pp 233-4 of the fully authoritative Religions of Rome: vol I - A History by Mary Beard, John North and Simon Price (1998). I suggest that observation is removed. However, the Romans did routinely expose unwanted babies, which would seem a plausible explanation for the find which is not mentioned in this article, though I have not seen a published source of local reference. Deipnosophista (talk) 18:08, 21 May 2012 (UTC)

The sentence in full reads: "It is unknown whether the babies were selected for burial because they were already dead, perhaps stillborn, or if they were killed for the purpose, but they were probably buried in the buildings as ritual sacrifices." It doesn't say that the bones are indicative of human sacrifice in the sense of killings expressly for the purpose, merely that it's one possibility among others; and the associated footnote already makes mention of human sacrifice being "officially condemned". Regarding exposure, these infants' remains were found inserted within stone structures, which to be honest doesn't suggest exposure to me, any more than it seems to have done to the archaeologist in charge, Brian Philp. As for the cited authority, presumably you refer to Ralph Merrifield? I'd say he's an excellent authority. I'm curious to know why you would say otherwise. I don't doubt Miranda Green's credentials, but this article cites sources which are directly relevant here. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 19:31, 21 May 2012 (UTC)
I've added to the reference above. But I've hunted round a bit more and in addition recall a number of incidences of babies being buried in the foundations of mediaeval buildings, while my very Miranda Green is quoted in 2002 as citing various examples persisting into Roman times (http://www.britarch.ac.uk/ba/ba69/feat2.shtml), and there is a whole (mediaeval) article at http://cuni.academia.edu/Martin%C4%8Cechura/Papers/1091479/Christian_Non-christian_or_Pagan_The_Burials_of_newborns_as_the_source_to_understanding_of_medieval_and_postmedieval_mentality. I don't challenge Merrifield as an archaeologist of his day, but understanding of several areas, including religion, has moved on quite fast since then, and I still feel that the Merrifield remark goes beyond the evidence, and that a more hesitant attribution would give a fairer picture. I should prefer wording such as "they may have been buried there for ritual or magical reasons" Deipnosophista (talk) 18:58, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
Hi, yes I was thinking much the same thing – "may have been" instead of "probably" felt like it might prove to be a good compromise. So, understood about Merrifield and the passing of time; but he knew his stuff as it was then and he comments specifically on Reculver. Thing for me is, some of the Reculver infants were found in the foundations, some were found sealed up in openings made into existing walls, very much as cats, shoes and so-on are found in medieval buildings, so these were very deliberate placings made with some purpose in mind. As well as a change from "probably" to "perhaps", maybe you can find a balancing quotation to put in the footnote, something about the wider picture in current thinking to go alongside Merrifield? Actually I can put the relevant sections from the archaeological report (by Philp) up here for you if you like? It wouldn't take me too long, and it might help you tie the archaeology in with what you know of current thinking. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 21:00, 22 May 2012 (UTC)
I just read the piece you linked from British Archaeology, and it speaks of ritual infant burials in Roman Britain much like those found at Reculver – it seems to support Merrifield? I've also read (as best I could!) the piece by Martin Čechura, but the best I could make of it was a discussion of how infants were buried in a Christian context, mainly according to economic status, which isn't relevant to the Reculver infants. It seems I can't get sight of the pages you specify in Beard, North & Price, anything else that might help me see where you're coming from? Nortonius (talk) 13:42, 26 May 2012 (UTC)

Useful quote?

John Blair, The Church in Anglo-Saxon Society, p. 361: "In about 1030 the ancient Kentish minster of Reculver, now Archbishop Æthelnoth's property, housed some kind of Flemish religious community under a dean named Giuchard, though part of its demesne was leased to archiepiscopal thegns." Dudley Miles (talk) 12:04, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Thank you very much Dudley Miles, that's very kind of you! :o) I've added the reference to St Mary's Church, Reculver, and mention of demesne makes me think I'll try to work it in here too – cheers! Nortonius (talk) 12:55, 29 June 2014 (UTC)

Primary sources and FAC

I've been thinking about last summer's abortive FAC for this article, and how it seemed to progress very well towards a pass, but for concerns that were raised during the source review. The main sticking point was the use as sources of documents described in detail on the E 179 Database. I maintained that the Database was a secondary source, but others approached it as a collection of primary sources. I've just now had another look at uses of the E 179 database in the article in conjunction with what is said about WP policy in handling primary sources, and I still fail to see a problem. The relevant section at WP:PRIMARY reads:

Policy: Unless restricted by another policy, reliable primary sources may be used in Wikipedia; but only with care, because it is easy to misuse them. Any interpretation of primary source material requires a reliable secondary source for that interpretation. A primary source may only be used on Wikipedia to make straightforward, descriptive statements of facts that can be verified by any educated person with access to the primary source but without further, specialized knowledge. For example, an article about a novel may cite passages to describe the plot, but any interpretation needs a secondary source. Do not analyze, synthesize, interpret, or evaluate material found in a primary source yourself; instead, refer to reliable secondary sources that do so.

Looking again at how E 179 documents are handled in this article, I'm convinced that at no point are they analysed, synthesised, interpreted or evaluated. All passages dependent on the Database are direct statements of what the documents say.

Beyond that, the reliability of the documents themselves was called into question. The descriptions of the documents on the Database make it clear that each was drawn up according to statutory instructions issued by Parliament. I thought last summer, and still think now, that doubting the reliability of these documents is absurd. They are records of central government taxation, and were accepted as such at the Exchequer. I can't think of anything that might make these documents more reliable. If those who objected to the FAC for this article for the reasons I've set out here (and I hope that I've described them accurately) were to have another look at the article and find that they now agree with my assessment, I may be tempted to stick my head above the parapet for another stab at an FAC. If not, then I have decided that I shall leave it alone. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 23:17, 6 March 2015 (UTC)

Any views from User:Hchc2009, who raised the issue? Dudley Miles (talk) 23:50, 6 March 2015 (UTC)
I remain very cautious about using primary medieval documents as the basis to build arguments in a Wikipedia article, including making editorial judgements about the reliability of those primary documents and their authors. As I mentioned in my comments in the previous review, this is fundamentally different from the position one would take in writing a professional historical piece off-wiki, where taking primary sources and using them to build an historical picture would be entirely appropriate. I continue to believe that we should be using reliable secondary sources, in this case drawing on professional historians who have used the primary sources to produce a high-quality, secondary account of historical events. Nortonious, I'd add that I wouldn't want to discourage you from taking it back to FAC on the basis of my views alone though. Hchc2009 (talk) 08:28, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Thanks both. User:Hchc2009, that's very democratic of you, and I do appreciate the sentiment, but I won't be putting myself through that experience again if your views are unchanged, as you know they were what stalled the FAC – just as you wouldn't discourage me, I can hardly expect you to keep mum! I genuinely don't see why anyone would think medieval administrative records of central government are less reliable than modern ones – these are not chronicles or other one-offs but pro-forma products of a bureaucratic machine – but there it is. Thanks again, take care. Nortonius (talk) 10:22, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
One solution adopted by some editors is to publish their research in a peer reviewed journal and then cite it in the article. This is legitimate if the editor does not give undue weight to their own work. You must have enough for a good journal article. Dudley Miles (talk) 11:31, 7 March 2015 (UTC)
Yes, thanks Dudley, that does seem to be a realistic prospect. It's just the usual issue of time and energy being in short supply. We shall see... Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 17:42, 7 March 2015 (UTC)

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March 2017

There was a brief flurry of editing activity on the article on 10 March,[12][13][14][15], and I notice that the page received more than double its 30-day average number of views that day too[16] – that's only 116 views, but still a noticeable blip, even if it reflects only the editing activity. Maybe it was just one of those things, but curiosity drives me to ask if there was any particular reason for it – I've searched the web for clues but found nothing, did I miss some event or news item involving Reculver? I'd be grateful if Iridescent, David Biddulph or Nyttend would spare a moment to satisfy my curiosity! TIA Nortonius (talk) 12:50, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

No mystery—the Estates Manager of Trinity House* posted on the Help Desk to complain about the error, so a number of HD helpers will have taken a look. ‑ Iridescent 14:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
*Technically "someone claiming to be the Estates Manager of Trinity House" as we can't prove the identity of anyone on Wikipedia without going via OTRS, but that's an extremely odd thing for anyone else to be impersonating and the IP is registered as owned by Trinity House. ‑ Iridescent 14:05, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
It's also worth googling "10 March 2017 Reculver". It brings up several news articles and events which would have drawn attention to Reculver on that date. One of them is a school trip to Reculver, scheduled for that date Beths Grammar School, letter to parents about 10 March 2017 school trip to Reculver.
Oh that is interesting, Iridescent, thank you! Understood about the uncertain but probable ID of the "complainant". So they're saying that Wilmott 2012, p. 26, is incorrect. That's certainly something I'd like to fix if true, but, despite appearances from the huge number of sources in the Bibliography here, information about Reculver is understandably thin on the ground. I wonder if the complainant might be persuaded to supply a WP:RS. I'll have a look for one myself in the meantime, but I won't be holding my breath. And thanks for the suggestion Storye book, I did try that, and trying again now, and persevering to the third page of Google results, I don't see that! Annoying. Thanks both. Nortonius (talk) 14:20, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Probably more difficult than it sounds, as it's always hard to cite what any given body isn't responsible for since any publication is quite reasonably only going to list what they do, not what they don't. Council minutes are likely to be your best bet, as there will probably be a record somewhere of a councillor grumbling about Trinity House not footing the bill. ‑ Iridescent 14:25, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
Believe me, it sounds very difficult to me! But that's a good tip, thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 14:30, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
FWIW, putting reculver shoreline management through Google brings up numerous documents indicating that the sea defences are maintained by Canterbury District, although given the difficulty of proving a negative that's not concrete evidence that Trinity House aren't at least footing part of the bill. ‑ Iridescent 14:35, 12 March 2017 (UTC)
@Nortonius, found a smoking gun—"Trinity House initially built groynes around the coast to prevent further erosion, supplementing this with a facing of ragstone blocks around the cliff in 1866. The coastal defences, which abut the northern side of the area in EH care and consist of sea walls, groynes and beach recharge schemes, are owned and maintained by the EA. The ragstone apron immediately to the north of St Mary’s Church is regularly maintained by EH." ‑ Iridescent 14:42, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Oh for goodness' sake – Wilmott 2012 is an EH publication! I swear, the world is run by idiots these days. (no hostages to fortune there, as I don't run the world!) Thanks so much for your efforts Iridescent, I'll have a spot of lunch and then have a stab at pleasing our complainant. Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 14:48, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

 Done – just so you know. If anything like that arises, do feel free to ping me. Thanks again. Nortonius (talk) 15:59, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

Obviously I missed a bit, thanks David Biddulph for bringing that to my attention through your edit. I hope it's all in good order now ...? Cheers. Nortonius (talk) 17:11, 12 March 2017 (UTC)

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