Talk:Records of Irish heads of government since 1922

Ahern term end-date

I am changing his end-date from 6th May to 7th May so as to include his 1-day period as acting Taoiseach following his visit to the Aras. The end-date of the terms of all other Taoisigh includes the acting period. For example, I believe his predecessor Bruton was acting-Taoiseach from his loss in the June 6 election until Ahern had secured Dail support to go to the President on June 26 which is the recorded end-date for Bruton --Rye1967 (talk) 22:10, 7 May 2008 (UTC)

W. T. Cosgrave

Why doesn't this list mention W. T. Cosgrave? I know he was not a Taoiseach but he was Head of the Irish government for 10 years, which is longer than Cowen, Bruton, Reynolds, Liam Cosgrave, Fitzgerald, Costello, Haughey and Lemass. A discussion on W.T. Cosgrave inclusion on list of Taosigh was held here and he is officially counted, see here. Alternatively the name of this article could be changed to List of Heads of Irish Government by important facts. Snappy56 (talk) 09:52, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

I agree, Cosgrave should be included --Rye1967 (talk) 18:25, 4 June 2008 (UTC)

Change of title

I see the article title has been changed without discussion. I can see the rationale for it, since W.T. Cosgrave wasn't described as taoiseach, but the current article title produces another problem in that it describes a much wider category than that of the article. "Heads of Irish governments" could include more than prime ministers of the Free State/Republic: it could include Chief Secretaries, Lord Chancellors, prime ministers of Northern Ireland, Secretaries of State of Northern Ireland, etc. - all of whom were heads of various Irish governments. Mooretwin (talk) 11:12, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Incorrect there was a discussion, try reading this page - brief but still a discussion. There was a related and more detailed discussion here [1]. Furthermore, as you are no doubt aware there doesn't need to a discussion on every change on wikipedia, see WP:BOLD. I don't agree with some of your examples, Secretaries of State of Northern Ireland - they are/were never Heads of Government; Lord Chancellors/Lieutenants - Monarchs representative; prime ministers of Northern Ireland - Obviously Northern Irish not Irish. The title might need more tweaking but I thought that List of heads of Irish governments since 1922 by important facts was a bit long winded. All suggestions are welcome. Snappy (talk) 11:39, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

One could argue that the Secretary of State for NI was head of the Government of NI. Bizarre, and offensive, that you assert that a prime minister of Northern Ireland was not Irish. Mooretwin (talk) 11:58, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

You could argue that the Secretary of State for NI was head of the Government of NI but you'd still be completely wrong. What I meant by prime ministers of Northern Ireland being Northern Irish was that they would be qualified by the word Northern not that they weren't Irish., e.g. List of heads of Northern Irish governments as opposed to List of heads of Irish governments. So not actually offensive at all. Snappy (talk) 12:30, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

One wouldn't necessarily be wrong. A government of NI continued to exist following the abolition of Stormont, and the Secretary of State was the head of it. Mooretwin (talk) 12:34, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

So wrong! The Sec of State for NI is a government minister part of the UK government, not head of any NI government. Snappy (talk) 13:01, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

It's not "so wrong". The Sec of State for NI is and was, indeed, part of the UK government, but was also head of the NI government during Direct Rule. "Government of Northern Ireland" continued to be a term used during Direct Rule, and NI continued to have its own Government departments and civil service, separate from those of the UK. Mooretwin (talk) 13:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

The implication of removing Northern Irish from the category of Irish is to say that the former is not part of the latter, i.e. Northern Irish is not Irish, and that (Southern) Irish and Irish are synonymous. That is offensive. Mooretwin (talk) 12:33, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

Firstly, you are reading way too much into a quickly typed offhand comment and secondly you seem to be looking for offence where in fact there is actually none. Snappy (talk) 13:00, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

I'm not looking for offence, merely observing that to imply, as you have done, that NI is not Irish is offensive to Irish people in NI. Mooretwin (talk) 13:32, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

That's total rubbish, I implied no such thing, now you're ascribed things to me that I never stated. I'm offended now! You've just read way too much into one casual remark. One more again, I meant that if you are creating a list of prime ministers of Northern Ireland, you might call it - 'List of Northern Irish prime ministers'. You wouldn't call it 'List of Irish prime ministers' because that would be misleading and incorrect, you need the 'Northern' in there to distinguish it. You've gone off on a tangent, misinterpreting my casual remark. Hope this has cleared it up for you. Snappy (talk) 13:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

For the same reason, a list of Irish prime ministers would need to be disambiguated to say "List of prime ministers of the Irish Free State/Éire/Republic of Ireland Mooretwin (talk) 14:21, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

No, it wouldn't. You're obviously want to continue the whole Ireland/Republic of tiresome debate everywhere else. Since I've moved the article back to its original title and added 4 refs to prove W.T. Cosgrave is regarded as a Taoiseach then this discussion is now moot. Snappy (talk) 23:17, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

It is indeed moot, but nonetheless the construction above would be arrogating the adjective "Irish" to refer only to part of Ireland. Mooretwin (talk) 09:15, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I see you're still discussing something which doesn't exist now. Very constructive. Snappy (talk) 12:56, 21 November 2008 (UTC)

I've decided to move it back to its original title. I've added various refs to show that W.T. Cosgrave, though he did not hold the office of Taoiseach, he is counted as one. Snappy (talk) 11:48, 20 November 2008 (UTC)

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