Talk:Ralph Northam/Archive 3

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Northam comments on abortion/non-viable births/Repeal Act + Kathy Tran in this article

I realize that this is hardly going to be at the front of anyone's mind right now, but I'd like to get others' thoughts on whether or not to mention Kathy Tran in this article. Tran's involvement with the Repeal Act is discussed in a separate article about the bill, and to my knowledge, Northam hasn't mentioned Tran in any of his public comments about the bill - so Tran seems irrelevant to the section of this article about the topic. Mentioning her is also inconsistent with how other bills are discussed in this article, e.g. nowhere is it specified who proposed the bill expanding Medicaid or the bill raising the felony threshold on theft. --Jpcase (talk) 22:47, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

DISCLAIMER: I am not 100% up to speed WRT to the Tran bill and surrounding controversy. That said, I agree that if Tran in not a central part of Northam's involvement with or handling of the bill, then she should not be mentioned here. The only way I could see to include her would be if she was somehow involved in what Northam has done re: this bill. Just my $0.50. airuditious (talk) 22:58, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

It seems to me that the only notable involvement Northam has had with the bill are the comments that he made during an interview with WTOP and his subsequent attempts to clarify those comments. As far as I know, Northam never mentioned Tran in either of those instances. It's certainly possible that he's mentioned Tran during public comments about the bill, but if he has, none of those comments seem to have received a great deal of press attention. --Jpcase (talk) 23:48, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

Sure - and even if he did merely mention Tran, I don't see that as qualification to include those specific remarks nor to mention Tran here. Now if Northam were to remark on how Tran's office worked extensively with the Governor's office in the crafting of the bill, then it probably would make sense to include it here but only if we otherwise include actual discussion of the bill in question or Northam's legislative activity. airuditious (talk) 23:54, 2 February 2019 (UTC)

I've gone ahead and removed her name from the article. --Jpcase (talk) 02:17, 4 February 2019 (UTC)

Actually, Northam's comment was in response to a question from reporter Julie Carey, who asked Northam to explain comments that Tran made at a hearing on the bill. He was directly asked to explain Tran's comments. It's not clear from the abbreviated quote in the article exactly what question he was responding to. I'm going to expand the quote somewhat to include a portion of the exact question that was asked and his full response. This way there is no ambiguity or deception as to what the question was or what his response was. Sparkie82 (t•c) 21:09, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

While I appreciate your view on this and the intent to clarify Northam's position on Tran's bill and his abortion views overall, I do think adding that much content re: his response may tiptoe over into WP:UNDUE. airuditious (talk) 21:16, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm not sure if you are referring to the WP policy or not-so-subtly hinting to "undue" my edit. If the former, I see no mention in that policy regarding how quotes are to appear in articles. My edit was made to undo the edit that removed the reference to Tran and to add clarity. You can't remove all mentions of Tran because that is what the question was that was asked and what he was responding to. The decision has already been made to include the quote, so it would be inappropriate to edit the quote down to make it less clear what was said or to add ambiguity to the context. Sparkie82 (t•c) 21:31, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

The former (policy) - apologies for any ambiguity - it was not intentional. Clarifying a bit more, Northam has certainly made any number of comments concerning legislation including about what others have said about legislation...yet we do not include similar detail when Northam quotes are included in his article. So then, I would ask...why now? To me, for this level of detail to be included, it must be of sufficient value to Northam's bio that warrant the added detail. airuditious (talk) 21:43, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm inclined to agree with Aleding (airuditious). The only time that Northam mentions Tran in his comment is to say that he can't speak for her, so that part of the quote doesn't seem particularly relevant to this article. The rest of Northam's comments are addressing the bill itself (or late term abortions in general). Northam never references Tran's testimony, so quoting Carey's question isn't necessary to understand Northam's statement. --Jpcase (talk) 21:53, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

It is necessary to quote the question from the reporter because Northam's quote uses grammatical pronouns and pronoun phrases that refer back to the question without explicit exposition: "...the first thing I would say is this is why decisions such as this should be made ..." and "...So in this particular example..." (emphasis added). When I first came to the article and read Northam's quote as it was, I had no idea what he was referring to when he said "this particular example". I had to track down the sources and do a bunch of research just to figure out exactly what he was talking about. That's why we need the quote of the original question from the reporter, which, BTW is as concise as any paraphrasing that we could come up with after a long discussion to determine exactly how to phase such rewrite of the reporter's question. The quote of the reporter's question is necessary for context. A paraphrase of the reporter's question will be less accurate, possibly introduce bias, and waste editors' time. Also, an article or section that discusses events needs to include the five W's, including all the "who"'s that are involved in or referred to in the event. Sparkie82 (t•c) 23:59, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

Sure - but your research notwithstanding, none of that answers the question as to why we should include this much detail about Northam's quotes concerning a single piece of legislation. To do so is not inline with how his other quotes have been handled nor how other politician's quotes concerning legislation have been handled in their relative articles. I think this is the question we need to answer first. airuditious (talk) 00:20, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

It seems to me that when Northam said, "in this particular example", he was actually referring back to the very previous sentence of his own statement, when he said, "And it's done in cases where there may be severe deformities, there may be a fetus that's non-viable." He wasn't necessarily referencing any particular example from Carey's question. I agree that providing enough context to readers is important, but there's a separate article for the Repeal Act, where that additional context is already provided. The "Abortion" section of this article isn't about the Repeal Act itself, nor is it about the controversy over Tran's testimony - both of those are addressed in the Repeal Act article. So the "event" that the "Abortion" section of this article discusses is solely Northam's own comments about the bill, and Tran isn't a particularly important part of those comments. The only context that seems necessary for understanding Northam's comments is a basic overview of how the Repeal Act would change Virginia law as it relates to late-term abortions. --Jpcase (talk) 00:17, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

Good points - I concur. airuditious (talk) 00:25, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

@Aleding:@Jpcase: airuditious's point about the level of detail is valid. There is too much detail about this recent event. However, including a partial quote can mis-characterize what was said or create ambiguity. Perhaps we should just eliminate the quote from the body of the article and instead briefly mention the public criticism over statements he made about non-viable, live births. We can include a note tag and put all the detail in a note at the bottom of the article. Sparkie82 (t•c) 06:29, 7 February 2019 (UTC)

• I've changed the name of this discussion to more accurately reflect its content. Sparkie82 (t•c) 21:40, 8 February 2019 (UTC)
  • As mentioned on my talk page, apologies about removing your comment; I had thought that I was only restoring the original title.

For the reasons mentioned above, I disagree that the shorter quote is ambiguous or mis-characterizes anything. The part of the quote where Northam says that he "can't speak" for Tran doesn't add any important context to what he goes on to say in the rest of the quote. And the only other parts of the quote that I've removed are a couple of very generic statements about abortion decisions being best left to women and their doctors. Most news sources that I've seen leave out these parts of the quote, so I really don't think that either of these parts are needed to understand what Northam is saying. But if readers of this page are left wanting more context, then they can always check out Wikipedia's article on the Repeal Act, which is linked to.

On the other hand, mentioning the blowback to Northam's statement, without including any of the actual statement would run the risk of giving readers a poor understanding of the topic. Personally, I'm not concerned about the length of the section, I'm just concerned about staying on topic. I'd be fine with including the full quote, if I thought that the full quote was relevant.

I'm not trying to claim ownership of the page, nor have I been trying to start an edit war with you or anything. So if more people decide to join the conversation in favor of using the full quote, then we can certainly go that route. But right now, there's slightly more support for using the shortened quote. And I'm not sure that I really have anything else to add at this point. --Jpcase (talk) 03:17, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

I feel we may be headed for a full circle here so just re-iterating some earlier points:

At present, I think mentioning anything concerning this specific bill risks WP:UNDUE or even WP:OFFTOPIC unless it is somehow directly connected to events involving Northam.

I also think this applies to any legislator\governor and legislation because, as we all know, politicians comment on specific legislation every day and we don't include that commentary in their articles. If we survey articles for those individuals, we are not going to see inclusion of comments made about legislation unless, as an example, that legislation is a bill they sponsored\co-sponsored, was part of a campaign promise, something they shepherded through the process, etc. As far as I know, Northam is no more connected to Tran's bill as he is to any other VA legislation that has been put forth by the Democrats.

If sentiments are against me here - fair enough - but if so, it would be helpful to describe how the bill is germane to Northam - I'm just not seeing it - Thanks. airuditious (talk) 03:59, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

Sentiments towards editors are irrelevant here, it's what's important to the project that counts. (Northam was responding to a question about a bill that he would need to sign for it to be law.) Sparkie82 (t•c) 22:48, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

As I mentioned above, the quote as it is uses grammatical pronouns that ambiguously refer to un-quoted material, so it's simply unclear. I agree that including the long quote is too much mainly because of recentism. Including the quote as it is here is too much for the same reason, plus it's unclear. That's why I proposed a compromise solution above, i.e., including the detail in a note so the article doesn't give undue weight to the incident, yet still includes enough material so that it's clear what was actually said. Sparkie82 (t•c) 22:48, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

It appears we are debating different things here. I'm not concerned with which quote to include - I'm saying the case for inclusion at all hasn't been made as yet - or if it has been made, I don't see it. Nothing I've seen presented supports inclusion of Northam's comments about this specific bill. Again, governors routinely comment on all manner legislation yet we do not include those comments unless the legislation is somehow relevant to the person in question. Also, I agree with you that it is the project that counts - I think my comments reflect this belief - my selection of the word "sentiments" is merely a stylistic choice. airuditious (talk) 23:08, 9 February 2019 (UTC)

What makes his comments notable was (is) the wide press coverage and commentary about the comments. To the extent that those comments elucidate his political position on the topic, that is also a reason for mentioning them in this section. (Note: If he resigns because of this and other recent controversies, it may need to be moved to wherever his resignation is explained in the article.) Sparkie82 (t•c) 00:56, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, the widespread news coverage about comments made by individuals was still about the bill and reactions to it. That said, people having a reaction to or making comments about a piece of proposed legislation doesn't necessarily qualify those comments for inclusion into the individual speaker's WP article. Several people have made comments about the Tran bill and those comments are not universally included within WP. For example, Ben Sasse, US Senator from NE, called the bill "morally repugnant" and surveying his article, there is no mention of Tran's bill whatsoever. Also, Northam is not really taking a different position than what would have been expected given his position on abortion. Now if he were coming out against Tran's bill, then that would definitely qualify for inclusion in his article - but that's not where he currently stands. Curious to hear others chime in here. airuditious (talk) 01:42, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Given that this section has grown quite long and has creeped a bit from the original title, I suggest we do one of the following: (A) Edit the title as Sparkie82 suggested a few days ago; or (B) Split this discussion into 2 different sections such as "Mention Kathy Tran" and "Northam comments on Tran abortion bill". I strongly favor "A" as I think allocating the comments to fit solely into one section or the other will be difficult. airuditious (talk) 02:14, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

If someone wants to re-title the discussion, then that's fine, but honestly, I think we can just end the discussion here. It's unlikely that any of us are going to change our opinions at this point, and no one else is likely to weigh in. I do think that Northam's statement should be partially quoted, because it received considerable news coverage. I don't think that we need to quote the entirety of his statement. As noted above, the portions of his statement that are currently omitted from this article were also omitted from most news sources that I've seen. It seems to me that we should quote the notable things that Northam said in the interview, but we don't need to quote the less notable things. I'd be open to quoting the less notable things, if I thought that they added important context, but for the reasons that I've already gone into, I don't think that any more context is needed in this situation. If readers of this article are confused, then they can always click on the link to the Repeal Act to learn more. --Jpcase (talk) 02:37, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

Well, this doesn't really address any of the concerns or potential policy violation that have been brought up. As I've mentioned before, I have no objection to including any content that is not in dispute as long as it fits within WP policy\guidelines. This content doesn't yet fit that criteria. Also, please take a look at Trump's personal and POTUS articles. This is someone who is arguably the most quotable person around right now and nowhere do we see extensive emphasis placed on anything he's said about other people's legislation or actions. To me, this a clear guideline in terms of deciding this debate here. airuditious (talk) 03:26, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

As far as I'm aware, there's no policy against including quotes about legislation in a politician's BLP article, although if I'm wrong about that, then let me know. The reason that such quotes aren't used in the Donald Trump article has to do with undue weight, I think. Because Trump says so many things that get extensive news coverage, there wouldn't be any objective way to single out which ones are notable enough to include in his article. If Northam had made numerous statements throughout his governorship that had received comparable amounts of news coverage to his statement about late-term abortions, then I'd agree that there wouldn't be any reason to single out this one particular statement for inclusion. But it's because the amount of news coverage received by this particular statement is uniquely significant that I think a portion of the statement probably ought to be included in the article.

Also, it's worth noting that full articles have been created about certain political views that Trump holds, such as Immigration policy of Donald Trump, and those articles do include extensive quotes. If Northam's political views had received presidential-levels of news coverage, then it would be reasonable to create spin-off articles of that sort for Northam as well - and if that were done, then I'd support moving Northam's quote about late-term abortions out of this article and into one of those articles. But currently, the amount of news coverage that Northam has received wouldn't justify separate articles for his political views, and so including the most notable portion of this particular quote in Northam's own article seems like the best way to go. --Jpcase (talk) 13:49, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

• I renamed this section to: Northam comments on abortion/non-viable births/Repeal Act + Kathy Tran in this article Sparkie82 (t•c) 17:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

His comments are in the article under the section Political positions:Abortion. There is absolutely no question that his views about third-trimester abortion and so-called "partial birth" abortions are relevant and should be included in that section. The question is how much weight they get (how much is said about those views). In that section of the article other relevant positions such as vaginal ultrasounds, NARAL and Planned Parenthood endorsement, contraceptives, education, Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act, each received one sentence or less in that section. His recent comments and position on third-trimester abortion and non-viable births in relation to the Repeal Act should receive about the same amount space, i.e., about one sentence. Sparkie82 (t•c) 17:59, 10 February 2019 (UTC)

His position on 3TM abortion??? Of course that should be included just as would any content describing his stance on an issue. But quotes of his comments made in response to questions about one aspect of a single issue? No - I don't see guidance justifying inclusion of that content except maybe in cases where the "why" behind that person's view is itself relevant - we do not have that here.

The only reason I see to include these comments would be to place added emphasis on Northam's position, and his reasoning for that position, on 3TM\partial-birth abortion. To do so, intended or otherwise, clearly violates WP:UNDUE. We shouldn't add content that goes further than is necessary to reliably state what Northam's position is on an issue. Adding his comments made in response to media questions about a specific type of abortion adds more detail than is required. So while we certainly must include Northam's position on abortion, as editors we should not care and therefore should not include the reasons behind his reasoning or position. airuditious (talk) 00:43, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

break

airuditious, I think you and I are in complete agreement here. Do you want to take a stab at writing a sentence or two summarizing Northam's views on these aspects? To include: 3TM, non-viable births/partial birth, and his position that multiple physicians need to sign off on 3TM. You can mention that his positions became notable due to the interview comments or not mention it, I don't care either way. Sparkie82 (t•c) 03:33, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sparkie82: I agree we are in close - I took a pass at this and while I think you may want more here, please allow me a brief moment to clarify where I'm coming from. I kept all of the key details about Northam's position so there should be zero doubt on the part of the reader as to where Northam stands. I did also keep a little bit about his comments on the Tran bill mainly because, given the flak he caught, it does make sense to touch on it. But I kept the bill's specifics (and his comments detailing those specifics) out because I really think that detail belongs on that bill's article page as well as articles about abortion. Let me know your thoughts - Thanks. airuditious (talk) 04:57, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Northam supports abortion rights and has argued for reducing abortion rates through education and expanding access to contraceptives. Northam opposes banning abortions after 20 weeks through a state version of the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act. He was endorsed in the 2017 Democratic gubernatorial primary by the abortion rights group NARAL and its Virginia affiliate. In addition, Planned Parenthood pledged to spend $3 million supporting Northam in his 2017 general election campaign for governor.

In January 2019, Northam faced criticism over comments made during an interview about the Repeal Act (sponsored by Kathy Tran (D), Virginia House of Delegates) specifically concerning the consent of the mother and multiple physicians prior to the performing third-trimester abortions. Northam expanded on these remarks by adding that Virginia requires three physicians to determine that continued pregnancy would be "substantially and irremediably" harmful to a woman's health - a policy Northam continues to support.

In response to intense criticism from various Republicans, including at least one who accused him of condoning infanticide, a spokesman for Northam released a statement where the governar said "No woman seeks a third trimester abortion except in the case of tragic or difficult circumstances" and that the governor's remarks were "...limited to the actions physicians would take in the event that a woman in those circumstances went into labor."

Looks like the ultrasound stuff got dropped. Was that intentional? I'd suggest just leaving the first paragraph as it is in the current version and replace all of the remaining paragraphs in the section with a sentence or so about his positions on 3T, etc. using the same terse form and writing style as in the first paragraph. Sparkie82 (t•c) 06:20, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

That was a mistake - good catch. How's this for the 1st-P?

Northam supports abortion rights and has argued for reducing abortion rates through education and expanding access to contraceptives. When in the state Assembly, Northam opposed a bill to mandate ultrasounds (vaginal and abdominal) for women seeking abortions. He opposes banning abortions after 20 weeks through a state version of the Pain-Capable Unborn Child Protection Act. He was endorsed in the 2017 Democratic gubernatorial primary by the abortion rights group NARAL and its Virginia affiliate. In addition, Planned Parenthood pledged to spend $3 million supporting Northam in his 2017 general election campaign for governor. airuditious (talk) 06:33, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Okay. For the rest of the section, how about:

For third-trimester abortions, he supports the requirement that more than one physician attest that continued pregnancy would be "substantially and irremediably" harmful to a woman's health and opposes a provision of the proposed Repeal Act that would lower that requirement to a single physician. Northam opposes abortion after labor has begun but attracted intense criticism when he suggested that non-resuscitation and other measures were an option in cases of non-viable births with severe deformities. Sparkie82 (t•c) 07:26, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Apologies in advance for how long this comment ended up. There's a lot to go over here though, so it might be best if I just post the comment as is, instead of trying to shorten it:

With regards to WP:UNDUE - I disagree that quoting a portion of Northam's statement would be in violation of that policy. This particular statement received an outsized amount of news coverage compared to pretty much any other statement that Northam has made during his governorship. It was even referenced in Trump's State of the Union address, so going into more detail about it than Northam's other statements about abortion seems like the proper amount of weight. And again Wikipedia articles often include specific, highly notable quotes that political figures have made (e.g. numerous quotes are included in the Immigration policy of Donald Trump article. Those quotes would likely be included in Trump's own BLP article instead if Trump's political career had been shorter, but because Trump is president, it makes more sense to create spin-off articles for Trump's various positions).

Having said that - I think we're starting to zero in on an important point. Northam never really espouses his political views about abortion in the WTOP interview, aside from saying that he believes multiple doctors should sign off on third-trimester abortions. The bulk of Northam's statement simply summarizes what he considers to be common medical practice - and I suppose you could say that he's "defending" what he considers to be common medical practice, but the first paragraph of the "Abortion" section already states that Northam opposes banning abortions after 20 weeks, and the statement that we've been quoting is really just a long way of re-iterating that point.

I appreciate both of you taking a stab at rewriting the information - but personally, I find both of those summaries to be a little too vague. I agree with the point that Sparkie82 made earlier that we need to avoid mischaracterizing Northam's statement. But as long we were using Northam's own words, I felt like we were avoiding any such risk. If we try to summarize what Northam said, then I do think that we could potentially misinterpret things. For example - Northam has never publicly taken a position, to my knowledge, on whether to maintain the requirement that third-trimester abortions only be performed when continued pregnancy is deemed "substantially and irremediably" threatening to a woman's health. Unless I'm forgetting something, the only portion of Tran's bill that Northam ever voiced an opinion about during the WTOP interview is the multiple physicians requirement.

So here's where I'm landing - Northam's statement during the interview, and the subsequent criticism that he received, shouldn't be omitted from the article entirely. But it's already discussed, very briefly, in the "Governor of Virginia (2018-present)" section. Because the bulk of Northam's statement doesn't express any of his political views, perhaps there's simply no need to discuss it in the "Abortion" section at all, aside from mentioning that he supports the current requirement that third-trimester abortions be approved by multiple physicians. The statement is a notable part of Northam's governorship, but it isn't an notable explanation of his political philosophy. If Northam ever takes an explicit stance on the Repeal Act, then we could certainly consider writing about that in the "Abortion" section. But right, it seems like we may be reading too much into what he's said about the bill. --Jpcase (talk) 16:24, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Actual, looking back at it, Northam's comments on abortion/non-viable births didn't receive that much more press coverage than his previous comments on abortion. It was his comments on the yearbook photo that got all the press. The suggestion that we've come up with here gives slightly more weight to his recent comments (2 sentence vs. ~1 sentence for each of the others). airuditious and I have each suggested multiple atlernatives and moved from our original positions on this, but Jpcase, it sounds like you aren't going to be satisfied unless it worded exactly as you want it.

I see no choice here but to open an rfc, which I did. Sparkie82 (t•c) 19:12, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Note: I applied the suggested compromise to the article to get a permalink for the rfc. I'm sure Jpcase will immediately change it back to the version he wants. Sparkie82 (t•c) 19:12, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

DISCLAIMER: I see the RfC but am also adding my responses here for it will be relevant for the larger group to consider. Also, just a reminder that this medium completely sucks at conveying human cues and proper context. Nothing I state below should be taken with any edge whatsoever - any ruffling of feathers is 100% not intended...when in doubt, please assume good faith .

@Sparkie82: OK, so the paragraph you added is very close to what I drafted but with some important distinctions that I do not find supported in the current list of references. You added that Northam: (A) opposes a provision of the proposed Repeal Act that would lower that requirement to a single physician; (B) opposes abortion after labor has begun; (C) suggested that non-resuscitation and other measures were an option in cases of non-viable births with severe deformities. Those statements, if not accurate, are definitely not allowed. However, if these are actually covered in the refs, first...apologies...next, please provide the vector. But even if they are accurate, I would still think this is content that provides too much detail. That said, I will concede it might be worthy of inclusion and I'm definitely more than willing to discussion this this greater length.

@Jpcase: There's a lot there but I will try to keep it short and concise:

• Undue weight: My statement re: violating of WP:UNDUE was not in relation to the mere inclusion of Northam's comments but rather the content of those comments. As I've stated above, the content we include must be primarily limited to stating what his positions are. Anything further needs to be evaluated carefully for balance and pertinence. I elaborate more on this below.

• Northam defending common practices: In your 2nd paragraph, you dissect this perfectly as this is the exact kind of content with which we need to be careful. Is it relevant to Northam, his positions, and\or his governorship? Does it add undue weight to a specific part of Northam's position and\or governorship? The answer to both is "possibly" which is why we need to carefully scrutinize this type of content.

• Relevance of WTOP interview: Your statement "...I think we're starting to zero in on an important point. Northam never really espouses his political views about abortion in the WTOP interview..." - completely agreed - this is essentially what I've been arguing. My view is that the only part of that interview that is relevant are statements Northam makes in response to the fervor over his position vis-a-vis Tran's bill - the key piece here is "vis-a-vis Tran's bill".

• Vagueness: I respectfully disagree - The 3 paragraphs I drafted, while in some measure terse, concisely deliver Northam's position while also adding a minority part to this recent controversy but only as much as required to present Northam's stance on abortion in relation to that controversy. Anything further definitely risks adding undue weight.

• Your last paragraph: This is nearly in alignment with my previous arguments and with what I drafted. You did mention that "...[ Northam's ] statement is a notable part of Northam's governorship, but it isn't an notable explanation of his political philosophy..." but this is really the same thing isn't it? Or more succinctly, the latter really is an essential part of the former. And this is why, as discussed above, only select portions of his statement are worthy of inclusion.

--- airuditious (talk) 19:30, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Don't worry! I'm not picking up on any edge at all from you. I'm getting quite burned out by this discussion though, and so I fear that I've likely projected some that unintentionally in my own comments. If I've come across as overly argumentative at any point, then I apologize for that. Like you said, it can often be difficult to convey proper cues and context through writing. I've never intended any disrespect toward either of you in any of my comments, although I realize that I may not have always been successful in expressing myself as intended. (I'll address some of the other points that you raised in a follow-up comment as soon as I can). --Jpcase (talk) 20:38, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Thanks - and likewise on your end - not reading anything negative at all coming from you...all good. But I think you'd agree, given how nasty thing can turn here - and also how quickly they get nasty - I'm really sensitive to making sure I'm not being misinterpreted. It sounds like you have that same sensitivity. At this point, I think I'm just gonna let the RfC do it's thing and see what others besides the 3 of us have to say. airuditious (talk) 20:43, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

Sounds good - this will probably be my last post on the topic, unless there's something specific that you'd like further follow-up on. To clarify my comments from earlier though, you're right that Northam's political philosophy could be considered a part of his political career. But not every part of his career is necessarily a part of his philosophy. The distinction that I was trying to draw is that the statement Northam made during his WTOP interview doesn't shed much light on his political positions, and so I'm not sure that it belongs in the "Political positions" section. But the controversy caused by the statement has played a notable role in the history of Northam's time in office, and so mentioning the statement in the "Governor of Virginia" section (which is a history of Northam's tenure) makes sense.

As for vagueness (I'll just address the more recent version of what you wrote, currently in your sandbox): If we use that version, I feel that readers will be confused as to why Republicans criticized Northam's statement. It could certainly be argued that the criticism of Northam's statement has been an unfair misrepresentation of what Northam actually said - but readers should have the freedom to make that determination on their own. If the article is going to mention the criticism that Northam received for this statement, then readers should have a clear understanding of why Northam was criticized. If you want to take a stab at summarizing this, then I'd certainly give some more thought to the matter. But I'm not sure that there's any great way of communicating why Northam was criticized without using at least some portion of Northam's own words. --Jpcase (talk) 23:19, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

@Jpcase: Great feedback - thank you. Let me marinate on this a bit before revising my sandbox. I will ping you when there's something worthwhile to review - sound good? airuditious (talk) 23:24, 11 February 2019 (UTC)

That sounds good! --Jpcase (talk) 00:11, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

@Aleding: A, B, and C are all in the WTOP interview. With A and B he made unambiguous statements about his positions. With C, when asked about abortion after a woman had begun to dilate, he said, "... if a mother is in labor, I can tell you exactly what would happen..." and then went on to describe it with his controversial comments. He didn't come out and say verbatim "my position is...", but that was the implication. Therefore, in the text of the article describing it we say, "he suggested that non-resuscitation and other measures were an option...". I used the phrase "other measures" because he didn't specify what the other measures would be -- he just said the mother and physicians would discuss it. Some of his opponents assumed infanticide, but those other measures could be removal of live support or a treatment regime or something else, so we just say "other measures." Sparkie82 (t•c) 00:37, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sparkie82: I have watched\listened to the entire interview - here is my analysis:

"A" - opposition to reducing # of physicians to only 1: This is not what Northam actually said. He states that he would "like to see" more than one provider - actually "two or more" - but his answer stopped short of what he "opposes" in terms of the req'd # of physicians. This may seem like splitting hairs but it's not - it is drawing a conclusion not based in fact. Because you already have the piece about what Northam prefers, we need to just remove the last sentence stating what he opposes.

"B" - opposes abortion after labor has begun: Northam never says this or anything similar. Also violates WP:NOR.

"C" - suggestion as to reasons for 3TM abortion: Agreed - he does state this or at least his perspective as to why 3TM abortions are done. Definitely OK to keep if the content is otherwise justifiable.

--- airuditious (talk) 02:54, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Re claim A, Northam said, "When we talk about third-trimester abortions, these are done with the consent of obviously the mother, with the consent of the physicians, more than one physician, by the way." Again, not a straight "My position is..." kind of statement, but he also said, "this is why decisions such as this should be made by providers, physicians, and the mothers and the fathers". So at least we can say he believes the decision should be made by multiple providers (a physician is provider, so a provider and a physician is multiple providers) plus the mother and the father.

Re claim B, I know I heard this in the interview. I'll try to find the exact quote. Sparkie82 (t•c) 17:53, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

The part where you say "...not straight 'My position is'..." - EXACTLY that disqualifies it for inclusion. As to "C" or really any edit, you can't add content without first accurately being able to show where it came from and it is an editor's duty to remove content when no ref can be found...especially with BLPs. The article has been edited accordingly. Please do not modify the noted sections without first providing reliable refs that conform to WP policy. airuditious (talk) 18:02, 12 February 2019 (UTC)

Another editor had a question about Northam's unedited quote in the footnote. As I said about a week ago above, "Perhaps we should just eliminate the quote from the body of the article and instead briefly mention the public criticism over statements he made about non-viable, live births. We can include a note tag and put all the detail in a note at the bottom of the article." The footnote was done; the extent of the body text is a subject of an RFC below. Sparkie82 (t•c) 07:45, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

I'm not really sure what your getting at here as nothing I discuss in this section relates to FNs. As I said below, you never mentioned FNs in this section until your preceding comment made a few minutes ago. So your assertion that I attempted to split this discussion is unfounded. In any event, best to not continue the debate here - it will get resolved elsewhere. --- airuditious (talk) 07:56, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

• FYI - Aleding (aka:airruditious) just changed his username to VeritasSapientia (Log entry: 01:56, 13 February 2019 1997kB (talk | contribs) renamed user Aleding (455 edits) to VeritasSapientia (Per en:WP:CHUS)) Sparkie82 (t•c) 07:59, 13 February 2019 (UTC)

@Sparkie82: @VeritasSapientia: So...it looks like we're right back to where we started. I'm considering whether to open a new RfC, but as I've expressed before, I really just want to be done with this. Sparkie, is there any chance that we could come up with a new, compromise solution between the original three of us? I'll concede that my initial idea (Option A in the RfC) may have been overly long. But are you able to recognize why I'm uncomfortable with Option B? My main concern is that Option B contains what appears to be a factual inaccuracy - as far as I know, Northam has never taken a public position on Virginia's "substantial and irremediable" requirement. I was also opposed to including Northam's statement in a long footnote, but if you want to include that statement in a link to Wikiquote, then I suppose that I'm okay with that. And I'm okay with not including any statements by Northam's spokesperson in the body of this article, but I would suggest that we include those statements on Wikiquote as well.

So what I'm proposing is that we essentially go with a combination of Option A and Option E. We'll replace the opening sentence from Option A ("For third-trimester abortions, he supports the requirement that more than one physician attest that continued pregnancy would be "substantially and irremediably" harmful to a woman's health and opposes a provision of the proposed Repeal Act that would lower that requirement to a single physician.") with the opening sentence from Option E ("For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians."). This would also include an extra footnote that was present in Option E (which can be read here [1]. This footnote provides a little more context on how the multiple physicians requirement works). And I would suggest that we use Option E's phrasing about it being Republican politicians who criticized Northam's statement. But we would also adhere to Option B in that we would remove the two statements by Northam and his spokesperson from the body of the article.

Does this sound okay to you? airuditious, let me know if you have any input as well. Thanks. --Jpcase (talk) 14:22, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

@Sparkie82: @VeritasSapientia: Have either of you had a chance to consider this? In case it's hard to visualize what it is that I'm suggesting, I'll go ahead and write out the actual text of my proposal:

"For third-trimester abortions, Northam supports Virginia's current law requiring certification by multiple physicians. In January 2019, Northam attracted intense criticism from Republican politicians when he suggested that non-resuscitation and other measures were an option in cases of non-viable births with severe deformities.

Footnotes

This is *slightly* different from what I proposed in my April 22 post: I've removed the statement, "Northam opposes abortion after labor has begun", because upon looking back through some of our earlier comments in this conversation, I've noticed that Northam's position on that particular matter has never been clearly stated anywhere. We could certainly infer that Northam may hold such a position, but if there aren't any sources explicitly stating that he does, then we shouldn't state it in the article. I've also realized that we probably won't be able to include the statements from Northam's spokesperson on Northam's own Wikiquote page, so you can just disregard that earlier suggestion of mine. I hadn't thought that through. Hope to hear back from one or both of you - if we can't settle on a compromise, then I'll go ahead and draft a new RfC. --Jpcase (talk) 16:15, 5 May 2019 (UTC)

@Sparkie82: @VeritasSapientia: Since I haven't heard back from either of you, I'll go ahead and draft a new RfC. As was suggested in the previous RfC, I'll probably leave the draft up for about a week before opening up the RfC officially.

Again though, I'd rather settle on an agreement between the three of us, since that would lead to a much faster resolution. If the new option that I suggested in my previous comments isn't good, then you still have time to let me know what your concerns are, and we can try to come up with a better solution. --Jpcase (talk) 15:04, 13 May 2019 (UTC)