Talk:Racism in Cuba

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 1 September 2020 and 8 December 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Yves Brady.

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Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 15 January 2021 and 14 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Bijou tine. Peer reviewers: Danel216.

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2021 and 27 April 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Cinnamon-milk2022. Peer reviewers: GoldenGirl2000, Sekanijoy10.

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Delete the article

To be honest, this article should be deleted. It doesn't contain much information, and what it does contain already exists in other articles.

I disagree completely. It would be nice if this article could also mention racism against Jews and Asians in Cuba. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 89.79.39.60 (talk) 19:33, 29 March 2009 (UTC)

This article really stinks

I would suggest immediate deletion. 16:24, 27 March 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneralChoomin (talk • contribs)

Second the above

This article is also poorly written. I wish I could fix it, the writing. Sapporod1965 (talk) 01:37, 21 May 2010 (UTC)

Unfair and biased

As a Cuban residing in the country I must say I'm shocked. I don't have official census numbers, but black population IS NOT majority in Cuba, mixed race population is. It must be noted that in Cuba mulatto does not account for all mixings, only for those were the black ascendancy is predominant, all other are themed as "trigueños" (wheat-skinned, literally, roughly equivalent to Latin American) and are commonly grouped or considered "white". As there are no other significant demographic groups, Cuban population is restricted in our minds in whites and black, with mulatto and other mixings accounting to one or the other.

I resent the racism related to politics. Cubans are very cruel in politics, don't know if this is something privy only to communist vs capitalist ideology fight, but is a Cuban reality: our political fights are dirty fights. Of course, a dissident would use everything to soil the Cuban Government (as the government does in turn, by the way). It's stupid to say that Cuba is led by a white leadership as if it meant something of itself. It is a historical leadership, not a racial one. Besides, there have been prominent political figures inside the Communist movement that are black, notoriously the recently deceased Commander of the Revolution Juan Almeida Bosque. Plenty of artists, Media figures, etc. Hell, my own boss and the dean of my University faculty were black!

About the huge black prison population and the propensity of black people to be imprisoned being higher than the whites, that is factual truth. Factual because it is a fact, but not for the reasons alleged. Black people are more likely to be imprisoned for cultural reasons and common crimes had nothing to do with politics. As a matter of fact, there have been mentions that police is racist, which is true (black people get challenged in the streets more often) which is paradoxical because the major part of the police force is black itself! So we see that this is a cultural custom, so to speak, as black people themselves expect other people of their kind to behave less lawfully than white people. Black people are poorer on average than whites, leading to all these social consequences. Yet Cubans know that there is no difference, and aversion to black people is mostly subconscious, since there is no group of friends, workplace, political gathering or any other social reunion of people that doesn't contain at least a black person and a white person (except rare and almost justified exceptions, such as folklore Afro-Cuban cultural groups, Spanish descendants gatherings, and the like).

And here we come across the only point that is true in the article: Cubans are racist, yes. In our minds, black and white are not the same. Do we do something about it? No, because that would be wrong. This is the message that should be conveyed. There is no oppression, there is no outlawing, there is no "black problem" or "black identity" to be crushed into obedience or discipline. There are blacks and whites, there are different, and we all live together. If all racism were like this, there wouldn't be a Civil War in the USA, or Apartheid in South Africa, KKK, slavery, Black Panthers, Martin Luther King, Nelson Mandela... Systemic and institutional... ridiculous...

This rebuttal may send mixed signals. It's because Cuban view of racism is not the same as the American (dominant) view of racism. An afro Cuban is a Cuban first and an afro later. He has no own identity to use as a shield against a dismissive society. His identity is the same as the society as a whole, whereas his skin color is parallel to his friendships and costumes, but does not determine them.

No one is brutalized in Cuba for being black. No one has been, and no one will. The most aggressive a white person can be against a black is to mock them continuously. Medical access is the same, job opportunities are similar, and black people are the majority in population only in Guantanamo, Santiago de Cuba and (arguably) Havana City, for historical, economic and internal population movements reasons.

If I had anything other than a lifetime in the country and the streets to back up my vision, I would fix the article. Until them, I strongly advise the article to be deleted on the grounds that it is derogatory to my country, offensive, and inaccurate in its assertions. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 201.210.134.135 (talk) 05:12, 27 June 2010 (UTC) "An afro Cuban is a Cuban first and a afro later." Yeah same with african Americans but what the target of racism thinks usually does not matter to the racist person/institution . —Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.66.1.115 (talk) 16:25, 4 November 2010 (UTC)

I'm going to delete this article if no reply is given. This is a notice.

Firstly this article contains sources that are questionable at best. I mean newsmax is not really a great source. Secondly, some of these opinion pieces that are used as sources are just idiotic all around. An example of that would be the "Obama Effect" which is laughable. Since Obama would be considered mulatto in Latin America. Third, this is written in the cultural lens of a seemingly American individual who embraces the one drop rule which is cute. Fourth, the article goes through great lengths to source right wing opinion pieces but doesn't source much history. Such as the Cuban war in Angola against apartheid South Africa. In which Nelson Mandela wishes that Castro visit South Africa so he can personally thank him.

Needless to say I will blank this page of anything I consider to be propaganda. Which includes political opinion pieces, weasel words, and the use of American society as a cultural lens to judge other societies which have different social norms and rules. The third one is complicated but just as important since the cultural lens of the USA is racist and backwards since it includes the one drop rule. The one drop rule does not exist in most of Latin America. Thus racial identity is an abstract concept that is mostly not tied down to skin color but to social-economic status.

If author or whoever doesn't make these fixes, since other users on this talk page have voiced many times to delete this without any objections, then I will take matters into my own hands. You have three days to clean it up or justify this terrible article. GeneralChoomin 13:35, 26 August 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by GeneralChoomin (talk • contribs)

Needing cleanup is a reason to edit the article, not delete it. The topic is definitely notable (books, scholarly articles). Fences&Windows 02:20, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

The article implies that racism began when Castro came to power, which is doubtful. The article also lacks sufficient neutral sources. Morales's bookThe Challenges of the Racial Problem in Cuba was well-received and Racial politics in post-revolutionary Cuba,[1] which is mentioned in the article, is a good source too. But we should avoid editorials that do not have the same depth of analysis or influence. TFD (talk) 03:15, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with The Four Deuces. I obviously did not follow up with my threat but I feel that this article needs a total tear down and rewrite. The start of this article is just a disgrace. --General Choomin (talk) 14:48, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Still needs all tags?

It looks like the worst problems were cleaned up. Certainly more material can be added from some of more reliable sources. CarolMooreDC (talk) 16:31, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I think the factually accuracy tag could be removed. But the two others should stay. The article is still very poorly written and worded and still very much a POV article with an agenda. For example the article should be laid out historically by date rather than the POV section headings we have now.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 16:51, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. Trying to avoid getting overly involved in yet another article... but... how about two sections, one History and the other something like "Current conditons," say last 15 -20 years and move material around? CarolMooreDC (talk)

The article needs to explain the degree of racism that existed before Castro's ascent to power and explain how racism in Cuba compares with other Latin American countries. Neutrality requires that we show whether racism has increased or decreased under Castro and how his record compares with governments in similar countries. TFD (talk) 17:21, 24 February 2011 (UTC)

I see now the history section doesn't really have any history; it's a catchall of opinions not very well organized. An important topic that needs a careful construction. Do you have any favorite links on racism pre-Castro Cuba? Thanks. CarolMooreDC (talk) 17:52, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

It is mentioned in Racial politics in post-revolutionary Cuba, see for example the introduction.[2][3] The author writes about racism in pre-revolutionary Cuba in chapter 2. Some of the pages are unavailable but it may be sufficient for a brief mention. TFD (talk) 18:11, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

What the article needs to do is accurately reflect the most reliable sources on the subject in a balanced way without giving undue weight to any particular period or aspect of the topic. I have WP:NPOV and WP:OR concerns when I read a comment like: "The article needs to explain the degree of racism that existed before Castro's ascent to power and explain how racism in Cuba compares with other Latin American countries. Neutrality requires that we show whether racism has increased or decreased under Castro and how his record compares with governments in similar countries." I am happy to see that the editor wants the article to be neutral. However, I'm not sure I agree with that particular description of how to go about it. The topic is historical and should be arranged chronologically by year or decade. We should avoid sections by topic and this creates a fertile ground for POV and OR in my opinion.-- — Keithbob • Talk • 18:27, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I agree with Keithbob on NPOV and WP:RS, but would like to see what sources others have in mind so that don't get blindsided later because I totally missed them. CarolMooreDC (talk) 19:15, 26 February 2011 (UTC)

I spoke of this in the past and I will reinterate it again with the same words since these problems still need addressing.

Firstly this article contains sources that are questionable at best. I mean newsmax is not really a great source. Secondly, some of these opinion pieces that are used as sources are just idiotic all around. An example of that would be the "Obama Effect" which is laughable. Since Obama would be considered mulatto in Latin America. Third, this is written in the cultural lens of a seemingly American individual who embraces the one drop rule which is cute. Fourth, the article goes through great lengths to source right wing opinion pieces but doesn't source much history. Such as the Cuban war in Angola against apartheid South Africa. In which Nelson Mandela wishes that Castro visit South Africa so he can personally thank him.

Needless to say I will challenge anything I consider to be propaganda. Which includes political opinion pieces, weasel words, and the use of American society as a cultural lens to judge other societies which have different social norms and rules. The third one is complicated but just as important since the cultural lens of the USA is racist and backwards since it includes the one drop rule. The one drop rule does not exist in most of Latin America. Thus racial identity is an abstract concept that is mostly not tied down to skin color but to social-economic status.

Please fix this. I am not a smart individual who owns or even reads books on racism in Cuba. But even dim old me can point out such evident shortcomings of this article. There is a difference between institutionalized racism of the government and racism that is still ingrained in society. It is also ridiculous to say that a leader (or rather former leader) is racist because he didn't change skin color during his rule. It's rather ironic that the Cuban government would be tarred as racist when people who are considered black have always thanked and viewed Castro as a leader in racial civil rights from around the world. From Harlem to South Africa, they have always seen him as an individual and leader of social justice. --General Choomin (talk) 00:15, 6 May 2011 (UTC)

History

So the history of racism in Cuba begins by Esteban Morales Dominguez pointing to institutionalized racism in his book "The Challenges of the Racial Problem in Cuba"?

Not by slavery or slave trafficking? Seriously, there was no racism during the American protectorate 1901-1959 or during the colonial era? It was introduced by Castro, out of the blue, into a previously perfect and harmonious racial democracy?

Oh, and when I go to the article on Cuba, I realise that in that strange place slavery was abolished without having being introduced first place! Go figure! Ninguém (talk) 14:30, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

I have added a very short and insufficient paragraph on the issue of slavery in Cuba. Also, the idea that Esteban Morales' book is banned in Cuba seems to be a lie (and is sourced to a broken link, if the pudding needs a cherry to top it): it was published by a Cuban State-owned publishing house (and even someone as hostile to Cuban government as Carlos Moore seems to think it is an "official document")... Ninguém (talk) 14:20, 5 September 2013 (UTC)

Complete Rewrite

Hello! According to a lot of the comments here, this page needs some major work. I'm planning to completely rearrange and rewrite the article, and I wanted to get some feedback about this undertaking. This is the crude outline of what I intend to add:

What shaped racism on the island:

   Racelessness theory
   Fear of Black revolt/Haitian revolution

History:

   Slavery (and increase during the anti-slavery movements other places)
   Wars for Independence
   US occupation
   PIC massacre
   1959 revolution
   Maybe anti-imperial work and how that impacted domestic attitudes
   Special Period
   Now (hip hop?)

The Debate:

   The revolution got rid of institutional racism
   The revolution silenced individual black identity

Is there anything that I've forgotten to include that seems like a major subject to address? And does this seem like a good start? Thanks! --Yves Brady (talk) 22:40, 3 November 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Latinx Literature and Culture

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2023 and 12 May 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Yeya123 (article contribs).

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