Talk:Racism in Argentina/Archive 1

Archive 1

translation

This article is (or started as) a direct translation from es:Racismo en Argentina Vrac (talk) 07:08, 8 January 2008 (UTC)

Boliguayo

The new section that discusses racism against other Latin-Americans should be joined with the Boliguayo section, or vice versa. These two sections discuss the same issue. Binksternet (talk) 21:53, 7 April 2008 (UTC)

Merge

The content and history of "White Argentina policy" has been merged into this page per Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/White Argentina policy. I have gone ahead and deleted the associated talk page, as the discussions there would (theoretically) have little use here. --jonny-mt 11:01, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

• I feel that this "merge" with the White Argentina policy article has significantly degraded the quality of this article. The added text duplicates information that was already there (for example "Invisibilization" was already addressed in the section on White Argentine racism, 3rd to last paragraph), the added text is mostly unsourced, and it is poorly translated to the point of being incomprehensible. Vrac (talk) 14:58, 8 April 2008 (UTC)

The merge was done in line with the AfD linked above--my job was simply to merge the page histories to satisfy the GFDL requirements and put the existing text in what appeared to be reasonable locations in the article. Feel free to add to, change, or delete the merged content through the normal editing process. --jonny-mt 03:38, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Ok I get it, dump and run. Vrac (talk) 03:41, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

You got it! I did my best, but I can only do so much while maintaining the neutrality required to perform administrative actions. The version of this article before the merge is still present in the history (for that matter, it should be fairly obvious based on my edit summaries)--you could even be bold and revert to the version before the merge if you want (although, as always, there's no guarantee that it would stick). Nothing about the AfD close dictates that the newly merged content must be included here, simply that the content was not suitable in an article by itself and that, if there is a place for it, this article is it. The rest is worked out through the normal editing process. --jonny-mt 04:43, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Jonny why did you merge the article into Racism in Argentina? I presented several sources backing up the article I even proposed to change the name of the article because as I said people have never heard the name white argentina policy though its nearly the english term for Ideas demograficas argentinas[1] Please look at the article this new merge does not fit here, the part (here "white european racism") deals about the immigration policy not a european racism, in the same part of the article we find with the "Racism against latin americans" in which this has clearly nothing to do with white european racism. I think the merge of the article "White Argentina Policy" into "Racism in Argentina" instead of clearing certain facts it has confused nearly all the article. --Fercho85 05:34, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

Simply put, there was no consensus to keep the article--the vast majority of commentors cited trivial or no coverage, a lack of notability for the term. If you disagree with my call, you are welcome to take it to deletion review, but given the overwhelming number of calls for deletion or merging I believe your time would be better spent trying to integrate that content into this article. --jonny-mt 08:57, 9 April 2008 (UTC)

New Info With Sources

I added new info to the article, backed with solid references. When I get the chance to, I will add more references later. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.95.177 (talk) 04:09, 1 July 2009 (UTC)

68.173.95.177's baseless claim

Italiano Negro

Violation of WP:NOR.

http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/argentina.html There is no specific mention of Mariano Bosch was Spanish descent, and no specific mention of skin tones comparison between Italians and Spaniards, besides his thought is a misleading personal bias.

Violation of WP:V and WP:NPOV.

http://www.lewrockwell.com/woods/woods32.html There is no specific mention of racists were Spaniard descent.

Violation of WP:V.

http://www.topix.com/forum/world/italy/TH0N5FHTGD7COT2JC/p21#lastPost Only username "smd"'s groundless personal claim.

Violation of WP:V and WP:RS.

This is NO baseless claim, therefore, no viloation has been committed since the user provided a viable source of reference. Check this source: http://www.cwo.com/~lucumi/argentina.html.

Also, Mariano Bosch was of Catalan descent. The complainant is obviously misleading wiki readers for some personal agenda. He or she has made weightless claims. He most likely IS NOT of Argentine descent and therefore should NOT be editing new info with reference, let alone a people he knows nothing about. I am of Argentine descent, he is not.

Other sources of reference shall be provided soon.

That reference doesn't say what you think it says. All it supports is the quirky Bosch quote, which fails to establish Italiano negro as a racial epithet, fails to explain why you removed gallego as an epithet, fails to support the theory that Italians in Argentina met with racism from Spanish Argentines, and fails to establish any relation between menial jobs and Italian heritage. "Provided soon" doesn't work. I, for one, would like to know what you have against gallego—it is an established term in Argentine lunfardo. There are even tangos with that word in the title, such as Tango del gallego hijo and El gallego. Binksternet (talk) 03:57, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The reference from Bosch is justified as I have supplied the source and my explanations. Also, you said before that he was not of Spanish descent when in fact he's Argentine of Catalan extraction. Why do you prejudge the validity of references before you actually take the time to check them out? This makes me question your credibility upon the article. Also, to correct you, the "Gallego" term references a person whose origin is from Galicia, Spain. Why do you state that it is a term created in Argenina?

I understand that my "provided soon" statement is not good enough for you. Therefore, I will appeal to wiki's standards, which prevails above your standards or mine. I will furnish such references as soon as I can. Why did you state that "provided soon is not good enough"? Are you under a time constraint? I need to locate those sources whose links I once stored, but cannot find at the moment. When I find them, I ask that you not delete them as you did the "italiano negro" source. Also, being of Argentine descent, the "italiano negro" term has been lingering in the part of Argentina that I grew up in for years. Why do you not acknowledge this term since it has been in existence for years in Argentina?

I request that you lend the same respect to me as I would you, considering that I am Argentine and you are not. I am willing to work with you to help establish a better informed article. But, in order to facilitate mutual cooperation, I need your support in this also without any antagonism. If you question my future sources, I welcome your thoughts on them provided that there is a shared understanding of joint respect and cooperation. This is what Wiki is about after all. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.173.95.177 (talk) 15:21, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The Bosch quote is his opinion. It does not establish a greater truth that applies to all. You must agree that the term gallego is used in Argentina. I don't care where it came from. I'm looking forward to your proof that "italiano negro" is used as a racial epithet. If you find such proof, the text you add should say "dark-skinned Italians", not "Italians". Binksternet (talk) 17:28, 2 July 2009 (UTC)

The Bosch quote IS NOT his opinion - which is crystal clear - and will therefore be used as a source on the article. I really don 't undersand why you have a problem with such a reliable source. I'm trying to come up with some explanation for this, and the only explanation is that you exude some type of bias. The term gallego is a term used ALL OVER south america, and IS NOT used as an epiphet. However, I do consider your offer to add more sources as fair. I will provide the sources. As I've stated before, I need to find those. When I do, I will post.

68.173.95.177 (talk) 17:15, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

The Bosch quote is specifically this:

“ Argentine historian Mariano Bosch wrote in 1941 that Italian men had "perhaps an atavistic preference for black women: body odor led them to matrimony and the blacks accepted them as whites," or rather, "almost whites, because the Italian has much African in him, and his color is a dull pale." —Mariano Bosch, 1941 ”

This is an unfounded statement of opinion! Body odor? What a crock. Even Bosch says "perhaps." Bosch demonstrates his blindness by generalizing that all Italians are "dull pale," a ridiculous position, easily disproved. Italians come in a wide variety of colors. What we have here is a very unscientific opinion that one Wiki editor would like to use to support... what exactly? It can only be used to verify that Bosch wrote or said this in 1941, or that Bosch was given to overstatement. Other statements made at that URL are self-published ones from Hisham Aidi. Self-published sources have a very limited usefulness on Wikipedia... see WP:SPS for more details. Binksternet (talk) 18:37, 4 July 2009 (UTC)

Archive 1