Talk:Qeleshe

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Merge proposal: Albanian plis and qeleshe

The current versions of "Pileus (hat)#Albanian plis" and "Qeleshe" deal with the same subject ("Albanian pils" mentions qeleshe as an alernative name, while "Qeleshe" makes not mention of plis). Both lack any references or sources.

Furthermore, there's currently no entry for plis. Should it be a redirect to qeleshe or should perhaps qeleshe itself be moved to plis ? - Regards, Ev (talk) 19:28, 3 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

i would like to see an entry for plis. Trst (talk) 21:37, 13 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

But is there a reason for having two separate articles, one for plis and another for qeleshe ? Are they not simply two different names for the same object ? - Ev (talk) 15:27, 24 March 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Oppose: Qeleshe is the traditional national folk Albanian hat. In Kosovo it's called plis. However there is enough material to expand qeleshe as besides the plis there are many other variations within Albania, which are completely different from one another, be it for the material used, be it for the form. --sulmues (talk) 08:32, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

It's worn throughout Albania

Just made a change: It's used everywhere in Albania, not only in Malesia. --sulmues (talk) 19:25, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some info is needed on the regional variations.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:40, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Some sources

What do you think on these [1], [2]? Both Aleksandar Stipčević and John Wilkes(for which no one can say that is unreliable) support the theory of the Illyrian origin of the qeleshe. If some have any doubts for Stipcevic(probably because they are not aware of his contributions) they should read Wilkes's comments on Stipcevic's work regarding the Illyrians [3]--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 19:55, 22 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree that it should be included in Wikipedia and we'll do it. Both authors are good secondary sources. --sulmues (talk) 01:45, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Okay.--— ZjarriRrethues — ^talk 11:09, 24 March 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Who wears this when?

It's unclear from this article if the qeleshe is a man's hat or is worn by both sexes. It's also unclear if if it worn for special occasions or regularly, and if all varieties of people wear them.--Piledhigheranddeeper (talk) 19:53, 27 March 2010 (UTC) Fixed It clearly states that it's worn only by men. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 19:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC) The second sentence of yours is not easily to be sourced and will require some timing context. --_Sulmues^{Let's talk} 19:49, 30 April 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Merge?

Is this the same Albanian hat described in that article?--عبد المؤمن (talk) 01:34, 25 April 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Not the same hat. That one was described "as a kind of high- crowned hat woven from ivy branches" [4] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:4:4500:8589:E8BB:8968:66F1:BA76 (talk) 04:57, 6 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

Qeleshe used even today by Albanians

I would like to suggest that the article needs to emphasize better that Qeleshe is still currently used by Albanians. I also noted that there are opinions to merge with other articles that might show a similiar hat but not the same type of hat. It is to be noted that the greek plieus is no longer used by current greeks. It was used in Ancient Greece but not any more, as evidenced on their link to the higher quality encyclopedia Britannica. While in territories inhabited by Albanians, qeleshe is still being used. Its pretty clear that Albanians and greeks have had a some sharing of the culture from a long long time ago since the Ancient Greece, but the use of qeleshe is still part of the Albanian culture even today. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ilirpedia (talk • contribs) 13:54, 16 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The plis is related or stems from its ancient forerunner the pileus, and that is cited in the article with good scholarship. Additional ones wont hurt if it meets the criteria. However i disagree with any merger of a Greek based article. This article stays separate as its about an Albanian hat worn over the centuries by people who spoke and identified as Albanians (in whatever socio-cultural context) and not a marker of Greekness or something or that sort.Resnjari (talk) 09:24, 17 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No merger needed. My point was that the Qeleshe must be older than just centuries. Most likely a tradion that Albanians have inheritted from the Illyrians therefore logically showing that the use of qeleshe can be tied to the origin of Albanians from Illyrians. I think that Qeleshe does truly show the Albanian Illyrian origin. And this is supported by the fact that no other balkan people (Greeks nor Macedonians) use this type of hat anymore. So, in essence, a qeleshe type of hat, got out of fashion for other balkan inhabitants, but got preserved in the Albanian culture. Therefore it is very logical to conclude that the use of Qeleshe must be something as old as the Illyrians and something Albanians inheritted from Illyrians. The old pictures I had posted, do show this type of hat with extreme resemblance to Qeleshe, being used in antiquity (Pre-Roman period). There must be reliable sources that also show the use of Qeleshe as a case for the Albanian Illyrian origin. Ilirpedia (talk) 17:23, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I actually found these sources that can also be used in this article:

http://prishtinainsight.com/the-untold-story-of-the-albanian-plis-mag/

http://www.gounesco.com/qeleshe-albanias-local-felt-hat/

note that GoUNESCO is an initiative supported by UNESCO (part of United Nations).

Both articles point to Qeleshe being used since antiquity. This does give good reason to also update the article of Origin of Albanians to show that there is information pointing to an Illyrian origin of Albanians.

Change of the name to Plis

Plis and Pileus, the ancient version of the felt skullcap, have a continuation in the name. By showing the name as Plis rather than Qeleshe, would show a continuation which has not occurred in other Balkan languages. This is not to say that Qeleshe or Plis are not similar skullcaps, nor that one is better than the other, however it is a clearer demonstration of the continuation of the garment at least in the linguistic sense. Both Plish and Qelesh have the same meaning: P-lish or prej lesh (form wool), is the same as qeleshe or qe eshte lesh (that is wool). Therefore, help me move the article from Qeleshe to Plis for the sake of clearer continuation and demonstration of antiquity. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Atdheu (talk • contribs) 11:09, 4 October 2018 (UTC)[reply]

Ilirpedia (talk) 20:00, 19 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Ilirpedia, i am not disputing the connection of our Plis hat to its ancient counterpart, but the article is about the hat, not the origins of the Albanians. We can have a bit more on ancient connections, provided its based on scholarship. I appreciate that you have located sources for the article, however they do come from news outlets and other editors will challenge them if it relates to ancient connections. Those articles do contain info about the modern era and does fill a few gaps about what the hat means today for Albanians in terms of symbolism etc. Do a google books and google scholar search (use words like: Qeleshe, Plis, Qylaf, alongside the words Illyria/Illyrian/Illyrians, ancient etc in your search). These yield sources that are scholarship and meet the requirements of wp:reliable and especially wp:secondary. Read up on those Wikipedia policies and then see if a source you have comes across and matches the criteria. If so then you can add, but it has to be in line with the particular scholarship otherwise its wp:original research, which is best avoided. Best.Resnjari (talk) 15:48, 20 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The plis and the qeleshe are not the same hat. The plis is always conical while the qeleshe is not. This article leaves the reader with ambiguous information and there should be a clearer distinction between the two. Durim My. (talk) 15:04, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Plis =/= Qeleshe

Do not confuse these two. The plis is always conical, while the qeleshe is not conical. A reference to this fact should be made so that we that we clear this article of any ambiguity. Durim My. (talk) 14:58, 12 January 2020 (UTC)[reply]

pileus

It’s absurd this has its own page. The main article is ostensibly Pileus. Albanian nationalist appropriation at its best. 2A02:AA1:1624:39D0:FD86:B824:F6E2:D74F (talk) 17:24, 11 November 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Geg on the northern Albania call it Qeleshe, Tosk of Albania call it Plis to which dialect and obvious the different shapes , both belong to Albania ! 2A02:6B64:A025:0:D51C:8054:14A9:5D18 (talk) 02:34, 31 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]