Talk:Puppy mill

This is the talk page for discussing improvements to the Puppy mill article.
This is not a forum for general discussion of the article's subject.

Put new text under old text. Click here to start a new topic.
New to Wikipedia? Welcome! Learn to edit; get help.

Article policies

Find sources: Google (books · news · scholar · free images · WP refs) · FENS · JSTOR · TWL

Archives: 1

The subject of this article is controversial and content may be in dispute. When updating the article, be bold, but not reckless. Feel free to try to improve the article, but don't take it personally if your changes are reversed; instead, come here to the talk page to discuss them. Content must be written from a neutral point of view. Include citations when adding content and consider tagging or removing unsourced information.

Dogs Low‑importance

This article is within the scope of WikiProject Dogs, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of articles related to Canidae and commonly referred to as "dogs" and of which the domestic dog is but one of its many members, on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.DogsWikipedia:WikiProject DogsTemplate:WikiProject DogsDogs articles

Low

This article has been rated as Low-importance on the project's importance scale.

WikiProject Dogs To-do:

Here are some tasks you can do to help with WikiProject Dogs:

Recent changes patrol: members can review the recent changes list to be aware of improvements or vandalism.
Expand and improve citations: Akita (dog), American Bully, Artois Hound, Azawakh, Barbet (dog), Basset Fauve de Bretagne, Bavarian Mountain Hound, Bearded Collie, Beauceron, Berger Picard, Black and Tan Terrier, Black Norwegian Elkhound, Border Collie, Border Terrier, Bouvier des Ardennes, Bouvier des Flandres, Braque du Bourbonnais, Brazilian Terrier, Briquet Griffon Vendéen, Brittany (dog), Bullenbeisser, Bull Terrier, Ca de Bou, Cairn Terrier, Cardigan Welsh Corgi, Campeiro Bulldog, Central Asian Shepherd Dog, Chilean Terrier, Chow Chow, Colombian Fino Hound, Corsican Dog, Cretan Hound, Croatian Sheepdog, Czechoslovakian Wolfdog, Danish Spitz, Dingo, Dobermann, Dogue Brasileiro, Dunker, East Siberian Laika, English Cocker Spaniel, English Foxhound, English Toy Terrier (Black & Tan), Erbi Txakur, Estonian Hound, Estrela Mountain Dog, Finnish Lapphund, Flat-coated Retriever, French Bulldog, Galgo Español, Gaucho sheepdog, German Hound, German Shepherd, German Wirehaired Pointer, Glen of Imaal Terrier, Gordon Setter, Great Dane, Greek Harehound, Griffon Bruxellois, Guatemalan Dogo, Gull Dong, Halden Hound, Hamiltonstövare, Hanover Hound, Havanese dog, Hokkaido (dog), Hovawart, Ibizan Hound, Icelandic Sheepdog, Indian Spitz, Irish Setter, Irish Terrier, Irish Water Spaniel, Istrian Coarse-haired Hound, Jagdterrier, Jämthund, Kai Ken, Karakachan dog, Karelian Bear Dog, Karst Shepherd, Keeshond, Kokoni, Kooikerhondje, Koolie, Kuchi dog, Kuvasz, Labrador Retriever, Large Münsterländer, Lucas Terrier, Magyar Agár, Miniature Bull Terrier, Miniature Fox Terrier, Mongrel, Mountain Cur, Northern Inuit Dog, Norwegian Elkhound, Norwich Terrier, Old Danish Pointer, Old English Bulldog, Old English Sheepdog, Pastor Garafiano, Pastore della Lessinia e del Lagorai, Patterdale Terrier, Pekingese, Perro Majorero, Peruvian Hairless Dog, Petit Basset Griffon Vendéen, Pharaoh Hound, Plummer Terrier, Plott Hound, Polish Greyhound, Porcelaine, Portuguese Water Dog, Pudelpointer, Rajapalayam dog, Rat Terrier, Saarloos wolfdog, Sabueso Español, Saint Miguel Cattle Dog, Šarplaninac, Schipperke, Serrano Bulldog, Shikoku dog, Skye Terrier, Sloughi, Slovak Cuvac, Small Münsterländer, Smithfield (dog), Smooth Collie, South Russian Ovcharka, Spanish Water Dog, Standard Schnauzer, Swedish Vallhund, Tatra Shepherd Dog, Terceira Mastiff, Thai Bangkaew Dog, Tibetan Mastiff, Tibetan spaniel, Tornjak, Weimaraner, Welsh Hound, Welsh Terrier, West Siberian Laika, Westphalian Dachsbracke, Xoloitzcuintle, Xigou
Stub class articles in need of development: Alapaha Blue Blood Bulldog, Argentine pila dog, Armant (dog), Assyrian Mastiff, Banjara Hound, Billy (dog), Braque Dupuy, Bruno Jura Hound, Bulgarian Scenthound, Ca Rater Mallorquí, Calupoh, Campeiro Bulldog, Can de Chira, Cane Paratore, Cantabrian Water Dog, Chortai, Córdoba fighting dog, Denmark Feist, East European Shepherd, English Shepherd, Faroese Sheepdog, Gończy Polski, Grand Griffon Vendéen, Gull Dong, Hanover Hound, Hygen Hound, Japanese Terrier, Kaikadi (dog), Kars dog, Koyun dog, Kunming dog, Kurdish Mastiff, Levriero Sardo, Mahratta Hound, Majorca Ratter, Maneto, Markiesje, Molossus (dog), Montenegrin Mountain Hound, Rampur Greyhound, Romanian Mioritic Shepherd Dog, Sapsali, Sarabi dog, Schweizer Laufhund, Segugio Maremmano, Segugio dell'Appennino, Sinhala Hound, St. Hubert Jura Hound, Taigan, Tatra Shepherd Dog, Tazy, Toy Bulldog, Treeing Cur, Vikhan Sheepdog, Westphalian Dachsbracke, White Shepherd
Suggested Featured Articles due for re-assessment: Beagle (2007)
Suggested Good Articles due for re-assessment: Swift fox (2008); Cavalier King Charles Spaniel (2009); Clumber Spaniel (2009); Russian Spaniel (2009); Sussex Spaniel (2009)
Requested images: Briquet de Provence, Denmark Feist, Erbi Txakur, Jeju dog, Kaikadi (dog), Kars dog, Koyun dog, Levriero Sardo, Liangshan Dog, Perdigueiro Galego, Segugio dell'Appennino, St. Hubert Jura Hound, Tarsus çatalburun, Tibetan Kyi Apso, Vikhan Sheepdog, Villanuco de Las Encartaciones

Animal rights High‑importance

	This article is within the scope of WikiProject Animal rights, a collaborative effort to improve the coverage of animal rights on Wikipedia. If you would like to participate, please visit the project page, where you can join the discussion and see a list of open tasks.Animal rightsWikipedia:WikiProject Animal rightsTemplate:WikiProject Animal rightsAnimal rights articles
High	This article has been rated as High-importance on the project's importance scale.

Archives

Archive 1

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 5 April 2019 and 17 May 2019. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MachoCoMachoMan.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 6 January 2020 and 25 April 2020. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Katharinearodriguez.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 02:52, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Caitlincook09.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 07:30, 17 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Is ASPCA a reliable and neutral source?

I notice most of the stronger claims in this article are sourced from organizations such as the ASPCA, etc. Does this not violate the WP:NPOV policy? —Memotype::T 01:55, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I think that since puppy mill itself is a relatively derogatory term, that groups that oppose these puppy mills, and actually have referenced material, or have conducted undercover investigations, are a reasonable source. I notice that the Kennel Club and other groups who might be pro-breeding are also included in the refs, but I believe that even those groups are opposed to intensive breeding as might occur at a puppy mill. It's a little bit like the Cruelty to animals article - there just aren't that many people in favor of it. Bob98133 (talk) 13:50, 4 May 2010 (UTC)[reply]

No. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.38.63.112 (talk) 22:34, 28 November 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The American Kennel Club actually does support puppy mills by passing them in onsite inspections and by lobbying in opposition of proposed state laws banning puppy mills. Also, while there aren't many people in favor of cruelty to animals, reasonable people can disagree on what constitutes cruelty to animals. Some would include making them fight each other, but a few would also include living in an unsuitable climate (e.g. a husky in L.A.) or even simply life as a house pet, as cruel. For example, I feel that forcing a cat to live as an "indoor cat" is extremely depraved and cruel, akin to humans whose spouse or parents make them live in basements their entire lives without ever going outside.

Where?

My friend just told me that puppy mills were made illegal in his state. He's an internet friend, mind you, and he didn't tell which state it was. So, can somebody figure which state they were made illegal in? 24.179.27.28 (talk) 23:21, 17 March 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Google.com .... Can you figure that out yourself, Anon? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:1010:B046:87C:D5DC:DD57:BD49:1B8C (talk) 11:34, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Move to "Unlicensed Dog Breeders"

"According to the Humane Society of the United States, there are an estimated 10,000 licensed and unlicensed puppy mills in the United States, in total selling more than 2,000,000 puppies annually.And according to the human Society of the United States, 500,000 Dogs are kept solely for breeding purposes in all puppy mills.In addition to that, 2.6 million puppies are sold each year after originating from a puppy mill.

It appears that even if you are licensed by the US Department of Agriculture, submit to regular inspection, and abide by all regulations the Humane Society will still consider a business a "puppy-mill" if it is a "commercial" operation. This amorphous definition and unacceptable. It is borderline slanderous to imply that a breeder is a "puppy-mill" when they are licensed by the USDA, comply with regulations, and submit to regular inspections. This article should be retitled "Unlicensed Dog Breeders" and should specifically exclude licensed breeders who submit to inspections and comply with regulations.

The Humane Society does not have a monopoly on defining "puppy mill", nor is it a term that only they use. It's a term in common usage to describe high volume breeding operations which are abusive by their very nature.

There's no such thing as borderline slanderous. Statements are either actionable defamation or a legitimate exercise of free speech. Ironically, accusing someone of borderline slander is more likely to be actionable defamation than calling a breeder a puppy mill, which will be subject to a reckless indifference standard. Since puppy mills are an issue of public interest, the 1st Amendment guarantee of free speech gives speakers more leeway to criticize them.

In addition, contrary to your assumption, the fact a breeder passed a USDA inspection does not mean they are not a puppy mill - USDA breeder inspections do not evaluate compliance with animal welfare laws of any kind.

0 for 3.

I just made an abortive attempt to fix some seehe U.S. centracism in the article, but geve it up because that would require more rewriting that I'm prepared to do. Please read WP:GLOBALIZE, though. Also please note that the article does not assert that the Humane Society (either the Humane Society of the United States or Humane societies generally) has a monopoly on defining the term the term puppy mill. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 12:22, 27 March 2020 (UTC)[reply]

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just added archive links to 2 external links on Puppy mill. Please take a moment to review my edit. If necessary, add {{cbignore}} after the link to keep me from modifying it. Alternatively, you can add {{nobots|deny=InternetArchiveBot}} to keep me off the page altogether. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, please set the checked parameter below to true or failed to let others know (documentation at {{Sourcecheck}}).

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—^{cyberbot II}_{Talk to my owner:Online} 16:18, 9 March 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Assessment comment

The comment(s) below were originally left at Talk:Puppy mill/Comments, and are posted here for posterity. Following several discussions in past years, these subpages are now deprecated. The comments may be irrelevant or outdated; if so, please feel free to remove this section.

Comment(s)

Press [show] to view →

"Puppy Mill" may or may not be a pejorative. That it seems to have been invented for mass media consumption is, de facto, evidence that it is not a neutral term.

A point that has been ignored by this group, as well as by those who condemn raising puppies "in unsanitary conditions and without proper regard for genetic ailments, socialization, etc.", is the fact that, in the United States at least, commercial dog breeding operations are licensed, regulated, inspected and policed by the USDA. The regulations (over 60 pages of detailed specifications covering exactly these issues) provide a clear guide. These regulations are enforced by periodic inspections by USDA's professional animal health inspectors. Violations will lead to loss of the kennel license and fines.

So, absent a clear definition within THIS or ANY group (how many brood females, specific genetic guidlelines, specifications for kennel size, etc.) the use of he term "puppy mill" means whatever the user SAYS it means. I have never heard it used used in any but a pejorative sense. Mike Spies (talk) 00:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Last edited at 00:15, 29 February 2008 (UTC). Substituted at 03:33, 30 April 2016 (UTC)

Red herring removed from lead

The following sentence was removed from the lead: "No standardized legal definition for "puppy mill" exists."

A Red herring is a fact or statement which is designed to mislead or distract attention away from the main facts or concepts of of an article, essay, situation, etc.

The article is not about laws (although laws concerning pet breeding for profit are important to it.) No mention of "laws" was made in the lead before the sentence, so the sentence didn't build upon what came before--in fact it was totally discontinuous. Wikipedia is not a legal publication--its primary concern is not laws. For all these reasons, the sentence was a red herring and needed removal. Done. Tapered (talk) 05:23, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Oops. There was context that preceded the seeming red herring described above. I discovered it by accident, and restored the entire quote, edited out in Feb 2014, by Defaultdon1998. He made only 3 edits, all to this article on this subject, so I won't bother with notification. Tapered (talk) 05:58, 31 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Private Pet Store Owners Protecting Puppy Mills

It can not be overstated that the private pet store industry depends on breeders, and upon the "pure-bred" label to sell animals at marked up prices. The government crack down on animal abuses were met by pressure from these private pet stores due to a loss of revenue.

See link: http://bogartsdaddy.com/bouvier/bouv_pages/article-inquire-puppymills-akc.htm

The now deceased Robert L. Gryder of Docktor Pet Center in Biloxi, Mississippi was once such owner singled-out by the AKC. The ACK stopped giving licenses to a known puppy-mill supply to his store. Mr. Gryder was less concerned about the health of the animals than he was abut his own profit. He stated in his 1991 letter to the AKC that this would "cause irreparable harm to our business."

But you see, he was not being truthful. I worked for Mr. Gryder in 1997 and I saw the conditions that led up to the lawsuit(s) that helped put his company out of business. A customer sued his store because they purchased one dog that died and the replacement dog died as well. In fact, it was a normal occurrence for animals to die in this store.

I had no training and only a highs school degree when I was hired to take care of the animals. From day one I had a medicine cabinet filled with vaccines and drugs, and it was my responsibility to medicate the animals in the store as needed. Part of our responsibility was to walk the store each morning both for cleanliness, but also to look for any animal deaths or injuries overnight. Animals who were deceased were called "Shaeffers" and placed in plastic bags and then into a full size refrigerator to be picked up by the veterinarian. Gryder Pet Stores did pay for the services of a veterinarian, but he was not on staff and only visited the animals 1) when they were new 2) on weekly visits and 3) if he was called to the store for emergencies. To answer the commentary above, yes it is known by pet store staff that all animals can be abused by breeders. It was normal for us to receive animals with colds, coughs, tics, ear mites or just be covered in their own feces due to air transport. Sick animals were removed from the floor and placed in a backroom for medical treatment. Rodents especially are prone to dehydration and saline bags were kept on hand to given by the staff to sick or dying animals. I quit shortly after a puppy died overnight. Within an hour of him arriving from the airport, I witnessed the dog foaming from the mouth, and despite the fact that I was trusted with other medical treatment for all the animals, Robert Gryder and his wife decided that I must not have had enough training to know a foaming dog when I saw it. They did not call the vet to look at the dog, but admitted the vet was across town playing golf. The puppy died alone in his cage overnight with only a towel to comfort it. While I was there, we also had a slew of rabbits die, and the birds had to be removed from the store and placed in quarantine, because a customer became sick with E. Coli.

While these are the experiences of only one pet store, they are relevant in that Robert L. Gryder choose to place pressure on the AKC, despite knowing he had a store full of sick and dying animals, and that his store was later plagued with lawsuits due to selling these animals to the public. It is also relevant because the public thinks the problems stop once the animal leaves the puppy mill, and is largely unaware of the health problems that continue in the pet stores. Also it may be the breeders and such irresposible pet store owners who have decided that the puppy mill term must be pejorative. Think about it, they can't take the public to court for making truthful statements, but they can make nasty comments from behind their computer screens to help cover up the known abuses in their industry, and few members of the public would have motive to argue with the term, unless they saw the term as hurtful to their own business. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:14B:4401:D5C0:9028:75B3:CB5C:3F24 (talk) 18:45, 5 November 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Terminology

Hello, I've never used the talk feature before so I hope I am doing this right. I wanted to pose a conversation or discussion about the use of the word "bitch" within the article, specifically the "Differences in breeding conditions" section. I didn't see any similar conversations on this page so I started a new one. I know that this is word does mean female dog, but it is also a very offensive word for females, which is part of the reason why I think it could be corrected. However, my real concern regarding this word and its use in the article has to do with context. What I am referring to is the rest of the article. The word "bitch" was used four times in one paragraph only. It was nowhere else on the page and yet the term "female" or "female dog" came up 9 times throughout the page in different sections. Seeing how the use of "bitch" was both excessive and exclusive to one paragraph I felt this was not mere coincidence or someone trying to use different vocab, both of which I could understand. The use of this word feels deliberate given the rest of the page. Therefore, I think either the one paragraph should be edited or there should be more consistency/different vocab used throughout the article so it isn't so centered on one paragraph. I am open to hearing people's thoughts on this and discussing it. Thank you.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 98.115.178.210 (talk • contribs) 01:40, 12 January 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Wikipedia is not censored, so the only concern one should have here is consistency. 9³ 05:50, 3 May 2017 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with both commenters in regard to consistency and I will try to address this issue. Thanks for your comments. — Preceding unsigned comment added by VGirl7553 (talk • contribs) 04:54, 10 July 2017 (UTC)[reply]

No standardized legal definition

An IP has been repeatedly cutting any attempt at defining a puppy mill in the lede, arguing in edit summaries that this is "unfactual irrelevant informaion" and "Please read: "no standardized legal definition for "puppy mill" exists." Naming a court case that was thrown out is irrelevant to this article!)". The lack of a standard legal definition doesn't mean that we shouldn't attempt to explain to the reader what a puppy mill is - cutting it to merely say that the term refers to any "commercial dog breeding facility" is unhelpful. The animal welfare concerns are written about at length in the article, and the WP:LEDE should reflect this. We should probably be going even further and mentioning this - without quotation and as a statement of fact - in the opening sentence. --McGeddon (talk) 09:26, 15 February 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Legislative Response in the US

I noticed this section has a lot of information on Missouri and not a lot on the other states in the U.S.

   an example to include: California just passed a bill that January 2019 pet stores will be required to sell animals from shelters, rescue centers or adoption agencies. Governor Jerry Brown said stores could receive up to a five hundred dollar fine for selling an animal that is not a rescue.

01:19, 9 November 2017 (UTC) ~Bergmanucsd (talk) — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caitlincook09 (talk • contribs)

Peta as a Source?

I noticed in the common problems section peta was used to source the following sentences: "The conditions in puppy mills are considered inhumane because all of the dogs are in a small, dirty area which is confined with disease and bacteria. Because of the poor living conditions, dogs are often sick and malnourished. Food is often found crawling with bugs and feces is almost everywhere. Health issues that are prevalent in puppy mills consist of giardia, mange, heartworm, respiratory infections, and much more." I am not sure that PETA is a reliable source to get information from. I also read the article that was linked with the citation 19 and it does not state any of those health issues in the article. Here is the link for the article in citation 19^[1] 01:36, 9 November 2017 (UTC)Bergmanucsd — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caitlincook09 (talk • contribs)

References

^ https://www.peta.org/issues/companion-animal-issues/pet-trade/puppy-mills/

Maybe, humane society shows you/others a better overall reputation sorts? They even featured me lists of bad behaviours of puppy mills, too! See here: https://www.hsi.org/wp-content/uploads/assets/pdfs/puppy_mills_factsheet.pdf 2001:9E8:1216:D801:3DCC:AD70:5864:D786 (talk) 20:55, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Bad Hobby Breeding vs. Good Hobby Breeding

I think we need to talk more about the differences between reputable hobby breeding and bad hobby breeders because puppy mill is a term that describes both non-licensed and licensed. The conversation so far only includes the ones that do not follow the rules. 02:18, 9 November 2017 (UTC)Bergmanucsd

External links modified

Hello fellow Wikipedians,

I have just modified 3 external links on Puppy mill. Please take a moment to review my edit. If you have any questions, or need the bot to ignore the links, or the page altogether, please visit this simple FaQ for additional information. I made the following changes:

When you have finished reviewing my changes, you may follow the instructions on the template below to fix any issues with the URLs.

This message was posted before February 2018. After February 2018, "External links modified" talk page sections are no longer generated or monitored by InternetArchiveBot. No special action is required regarding these talk page notices, other than regular verification using the archive tool instructions below. Editors have permission to delete these "External links modified" talk page sections if they want to de-clutter talk pages, but see the RfC before doing mass systematic removals. This message is updated dynamically through the template {{source check}} (last update: 5 June 2024).

If you have discovered URLs which were erroneously considered dead by the bot, you can report them with this tool.
If you found an error with any archives or the URLs themselves, you can fix them with this tool.

Cheers.—InternetArchiveBot (Report bug) 22:26, 9 December 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Questions & Improvements

I am making/editing this puppy mill wiki page for my English class.

Can somebody give me some advice? What are some good sources to use?

MachoCoMachoMan (talk) 22:07, 21 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Problem swapped over to Germany

According to both PETA and Vier Pfoten, instances of people wanting easy on the money sorts of puppies have been equally on the rise. I rung alarm bells to my studymates bare minimum already on an already a last chance for sus behaviours of a candidate at University of Halle, as this candidate itself appeared to be a hobbyist breeder of puppies already. What to do against of this? Police does not always show respect for anti sus behaviour opposers in my country.

Anyways what I did: link to Wühltischwelpen, as equally of helpfulness as PETA/Vier Pfoten to avoid bad sorts of easy on the money breeders of any animal species kind including puppies. Wühltischwelpen - nein danke! (wuehltischwelpen.de)

Chemnitz and Halle also see missing dogs and cats of owners of any kind, too. Even this is its own tragedy. What to do against even this? 2001:9E8:1216:D801:3DCC:AD70:5864:D786 (talk) 21:05, 17 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

[1] ttps://www.peta.org/issues/companion-animal-issues/pet-trade/puppy-mills/

[1]