Talk:Puntland–Somaliland dispute

Update 2017

As of 2017, the border dispute doesn't seem to reflect the image shown on the article. Puntland controls more land in Sanaag and Sool than is represented in the article. I've tried to correct this many times only to see my efforts reverted. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakariayps (talk • contribs) 07:28, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for opening up this conversation. I agree that the current map seems extreme, but what's needed in either case is sources. Regarding your map, you appear to have simply cut a map that claims to show the situation in 2011, so the claim for December 2016 looks spurious. CMD (talk) 08:27, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Zakariayps could you clarify what exactly it is you disagree with in the current map? The current situation as of 2017 is very clear. Somaliland controls the capital of every region, including both Sool and Sanaag. Do you dispute this?

Your edits have been very disruptive to this project, I have asked you to stop and be reasonable so many times. The map is correct, I am more than happy to start a discussion on it but your disruptive editing and vandalism needs to stop.

CMD Why do you think the map is extreme? It was edited to reflect the situation on the ground as of late 2016 and beginning of 2017. The page has had very biased maps up for very long. Regardless I would be interested to hear your thoughts on the subject. Many thanks. Kzl55 (talk) 10:45, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

The map is more than extreme, it assumes everything highlighted orange is under the control of Somaliland which is factually incorrect, Puntland troops are stationed outside Las Canod and Buuhoodle is under the control of anti Somaliland militia this is not represented in the map. Neither is the Warsangeli militia who control majority of land east of Cerigaabo. The map is incorrect.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakariayps (talk • contribs) 10:55, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, wouldn't it be more fair if the current incorrect version of the map was taken down because its not only wrong but gives an incorrect perception to people reading it. Right now the extended protection on the article really restricts my efforts to correct it. Also i want you to click on the "source" of the current map and compare it with the map in the actual source its referencing, its completely different which means the sources are incorrect. I'm in an awkward position because my attempt at editing this is accused of disruption, i find it personally frustrating. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakariayps (talk • contribs) 09:08, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

I'm not sure what's fair, but the exact same arguments can be used regarding the version you were trying to insert. The "source" on the current map refers to the image it was based upon, not the source of the information. This is important for copyright reasons. Clearly, it is based on different information.

Regarding your editing, it was disruptive. See our Wikipedia:Edit warring and WP:BRD pages. Wikipedia is a collaborative process, and has no WP:DEADLINE. Communication is an important part of editing here. Best, CMD (talk) 09:36, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Thanks for your response, the first map showing territory claimed by both puntland and somaliland is fair, however the following map doesn't represent the border dispute. This map uploaded doesn't appear anywhere else on the internet and is factually incorrect. I appreciate you not being sure of whats fair, however leaving the current map unchanged would be a complete misrepresentation. What i propose just like the first map, upload an image showing disputed area, this means this area is neither fully controlled by Puntland or Somaliland, this adds a balanced component or you could take down the biased map altogether, i prefer the former, what about you — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakariayps (talk • contribs) 10:04, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Uploading another map showing the disputed area would be entirely redundant to the first map. I would like an accurate map, so if you have WP:Reliable sources on controlled territory, please discuss what they say. CMD (talk) 14:35, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

@Kzl55, I said the map was extreme because it extends Somaliland control much further than any map I've seen, and further than it was last time I looked into the subject. Mind you that was many months ago and things may have changed, but you should provide sources.

@Zakariayps, do not edit or remove others' posts on the talkpage. CMD (talk) 14:49, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

If it isn't sourced, and is on the other side of the extreme, not consistant with any map that already exists and no direct evidence a change on this scale has occurred, may i ask why it was allowed to be posted in the first place.— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakariayps (talk • contribs) 15:07, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

@CMD, thanks for getting back. Do you remember if the last time you looked into it was before or after Somaliland took control over the capital of Sool region? This effectively places all capitals of every region (including Sool and Sanaag) under Somaliland control. I hope you understand that there are claims by many different factions that exist in name only. If you look into it this becomes apparent very quickly. I am still awaiting Zakariyayps to answer my question above: Somaliland controls the capital of every region, including both Sool and Sanaag. Do you dispute this?Kzl55 (talk) 16:58, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@User:Kzl55 Yess, Cerigaabo and Las Canod are control of Somaliland, however you've conveniently missed out a lot of towns/cities like Boocaame, Buuhodle, Badhan,Dhahar,Hingalol,Taleex,Xudun and Las Qoray, all of these towns are located in Sool,Sanaag and Cayn and are not controlled by Somaliland, I trust that you're not biased just missinformed but please upload a map that represents these towns i just mentioned as disputed areas because they are not under the control of Somaliland and nothing has changed in 2017. (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 17:06, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@Zakariayps: Because no-one disputed it until now. Now the content has been called into question, we are discussing it. At the moment, both maps seem to be wrong, but neither of you has provided sources. I've found sources for some of the larger towns, but not enough that I want to make a map based on them. CMD (talk) 17:10, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@Kzl55: I believe it was afterwards. However, taking a capital does not establish control over the entire region. I've never seen any indication for example that Somaliland has gone all the way up to their claimed border. CMD (talk) 17:10, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@CMD: Can you link me the sources you've found, i would like to read into it and create a map based on the most recent sources replacing the current one you've admitted is incorrect. Thanks — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakariayps (talk • contribs) 17:46, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@CMD: I see. The only issue here is the dearth of information in English. Much of the news and information coming out of the region are in Somali in the form of written articles or video reportage again in Somali. Are you aware of the voter registration that took place in Somaliland a couple of months ago? Somaliland, in preparation for the presidential elections conducted voter registration throughout the entire country.  Please have a look at this report dated 9 Jan 2017, from UN security council, specifically the secretary general on 'Somalia', particularly point (5) which states:

On 18 September, after nearly eight months, “Somaliland” concluded a voter registration exercise in preparation for its own parliamentary and presidential elections. Some 850,000 voters were registered, including, for the first time ever, in the disputed territories of Sool, Sanaag and Cayn, notwithstanding the clashes between “Somaliland” and Puntland forces in eastern Sanaag on 18 July that killed five people. Official talks between the two sides led to de-escalation and the successful completion of voter registration

In the map you will notice that eastern Sanaag, specifically the Badhan district is highlighted as disputed, very much echoing the report and the clashes that happened in that region.Kzl55 (talk) 17:54, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Not sure what this proves, completion of voter registration in some regions of a disputed area doesn't equate to control over the area. Sounds like an incredible leap of faith to me— Preceding unsigned comment added by Zakariayps (talk • contribs) 18:29, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@Zakariayps: I do not have the sources on hand right now, and that was awhile ago anyway. The situation has changed. What are you basing your statements about control on? You've listed numerous towns in this discussion. Further, please sign your name by typing "~~~~" at the end of each of your statements here.

@Kzl55: I think you're stretching that report far further than you should. The main relevance of the Somaliland elections is that they have made a massive military push to try and increase the voter base. However, this doesn't mean they've gained all the territory they claim. "Eastern Sanaag" could mean a range of areas. Non-English sources are allowed on en.wiki if no English sources are available. They have to be used very carefully however. CMD (talk) 18:53, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

@CMD the clashes happened in eastern Sanaag, near the village of Dhahar, I tried to find an English language news source. If you lookup Dhahar on Google maps you can see the area in which the clash took place here. It is within the area marked as disputed on the map. I do not think I am stretching the report. It states the fact that Somaliland registered the population there to vote in its upcoming parliamentary and presidential elections. Please note that Puntland only protested the eastern Sanaag portion, which is marked on the map to be disputed. Registering local population to vote in the presidential elections is a major indication of Somaliland's control.Kzl55 (talk) 19:24, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

That source indicates that despite voter registration Somaliland's forces retreated and Puntland's government was in the town. Nonetheless, that gives us some information, suggesting the border is close to (and we can assume west of) Dhahar. Further south unless it has changed in the last month I have a source for Taleh [1].

I will note that whatever the final map is, the caption should note that the border is not fixed. CMD (talk) 04:45, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

@CMD, please note that the source is on the side of Puntland, I was just trying to get one that is in English. Somaliland was stationed in the area and Puntland was the one to attack. Both sides claimed victory, you can have a look here.

Many thanks for the source on Taleh, this was a recent visit by Muse Bihi, chairman of Kulmiye, the current ruling party in Somaliland. You can see how locals welcomed him and the rest of the delegation here (video is in Somali). I accept your last comment on the border not being fixed (perhaps in Sanaag? Seeing as region of Sool has been stable under Somaliland for a while now, we are talking years).Kzl55 (talk) 18:51, 10 February 2017 (UTC)

The new source doesn't indicate Somaliland was left in control. As I said before, non-English sources can be used, just with great care given readers are less able to check the sources for themselves. CMD (talk) 00:29, 11 February 2017 (UTC)

@CMD, one more aspect of this dispute I would like to highlight is the view of the Somali Federal state itself. Puntland is a region/state within the framework of a federal republic, it claims the land based on tribal links with some of the locals. The view of the Somali federal state however is that the regions of Sool and Sanaag are part of Somaliland, not Puntland.

To that end you can find the former president of Somalia (former as of 8 February 2017, they have had a new president last week) clearly state that Puntland is comprised of 2.5 regions (Bari, Nugaal and northern Mudug, out of 18 regions of the Somali Republic) here. This is significant because the president did not accept Puntland's claim of Sool and Sanaag.

Futhermore, this here is the official decision from the office of presidency of the Federal Republic of Somalia on how the seats of the upper house of the parliament of Somalia will be allocated. The seats for both Sool and Sanaag were given to Somaliland, this is very recent, dated December 9 2016, link. Its in Somali, I could not find any English version of the ruling. What is of interest to this dispute is point 5. It clearly refers to the regions in question as "the Sool and Sanaag regions of Somaliland" (Gobollada Sool iyo Sanaag ee Somaliland). I hope this sheds further light onto the situation regarding the Puntland claim.Kzl55 (talk) 23:39, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Kzl55, that is a very interesting source. Please add it to this article, perhaps in a new section noting other viewpoints. It however does not impact the map under discussion.

Regarding the map, my current suggestion is to colour the Badhan area fully green (control noted by this distinctly pro-Somaliland source [2]), and extending the vertical line south until it roughly passes Taleh. From there I think it should bend back to connect to a point between Las Anood and Tukaraq, before heading south until it reaches the Ethiopian border. Does this sound like a roughly accurate line? CMD (talk) 04:26, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

CMD, I will add the sources to the article in a new section, and perhaps update the section when the new president of Somalia (who takes office today) makes his opinion on the subject public.

The article you linked to is an opinion piece originally from this site [1], and while the author is clearly a Somalilander, their writing is not without hyperbole. Not to mention it is dated Oct 2015 and we have more recent incidents that better shed some light on the situation as of 2017. I feel the disputed label might be more accurate for the district of Badhan rather than outright control for either side. Evidence include (this pro-Puntland news item [2]) regarding the July 2016 clashes. The article clearly states Badhan being a stronghold of minister of defence of Somaliland "Somaliland Defence Minister Ahmed Haji Ali (Adami) has led a delegation of ministers, MPs and army majors to his stronghold Badhan by Sunday." Furthermore the article states clearly Puntland MPs plan to question the President of Puntland on "his failed promise to restore regions militarily seized by Somaliland." It also confirmed that Somaliland went ahead with the voter registration program in the region "Fears of imminent clashes had already gripped residents of Badhan and Dhahar towns as Somaliland presses ahead with registration campaign."

Other news reports from that incident give further insight into the outcome of the clash [3]. Puntland lost at least two vehicles, with 20 soldiers heavily wounded and 15 captured alive by the Somaliland army. The captured included a prominent member of the Puntland administration, Mohamed Farah Adan who was the former vice Minister of Justice and is currently a member of the Puntland parliament (he was held in prison in Ceerigaabo by Somaliland and released a week or so later, here is an audio interview with him upon release from a non-Somaliland site [4]). The target of Puntland forces was probably the Minister of Defence of Somaliland who is from Badhan originally. He confirmed that the voter registration did take place following the clash [5]. What do you think? Do you think an outright green for the map is still warranted? I think the outcome of the clash was clearly in favour of Somaliland, beyond the deaths and injuries which we can not confirm, a member of parliament and a former member of the government of Puntland was captured by the Somaliland forces. I am thinking the disputed state, due to the clashes, is closer to the situation on the ground today. Many thanks again. Kzl55 (talk) 21:45, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

Compelling argument. I'll have to think on it. What about the areas south of that? CMD (talk) 02:05, 17 February 2017 (UTC)

Please do think on it. The area directly south of the district of Badhan is Taleex which we have established to be under Somaliland control as per your first link above. The voter registration took place in the region as reported by both Somaliland sources [1], and even Puntland sources who conceded that the locals registered [2]. Lascanood too is fully controlled and governed by Somaliland. Please note that the decision from the Federal government (which Puntland comes under) did not even delve into details at district level as we are doing here, they have allocated both Sool and Sanaag outright as regions of Somaliland. Many thanks Kzl55 (talk) 12:51, 18 February 2017 (UTC)

@CMD Buuhoodle is currently under the control of the Khatumo administration. https://twitter.com/HassanIstiila/status/834476403819163658/ link]. According to Somali Lives Updates, in Feb 22 2017, "Soldiers who carrying Somali flag took control Buhoodle, the capital of the northern Ayn region in #Somalia, town being controled by Khatuma". This means that Buuhoodle is Not under the control of Somaliland. Buhoodle is the capital of the Cayn region of the disputed areas, one of the SSC regions. Given the fact that Buuhoodle is around 30KM WEST of Las Canod, this proves this map showing the situation as of December 2016 is wrong. MehdiHuusain (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:13, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

The dispute here isn't the control of Puntland in the disputed areas, its the lack of control of Somaliland. Somaliland and Puntland aren't the only 2 administrative factions in this region. Khaatuumo another admnistration representing the people of SSC are also present. As well as Buuhoodle The same is true for other regions Boocaame :

http://www.hiiraan.com/news/2015/nov/wararka_maanta7-93712.htm/ link] Link in Somali, translates to "Administration of Khaatuumo in the city of Bocame of Sool region is building a local council" Boocaame has long been under the occupation of Khaatumo another city highlighted orange on the map that isn't under the control of somaliland MehdiHuusain (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 13:48, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Buuhoodle is a town that lies right on the border of Somaliland and Ethiopia, as such half of it is in Somaliland and the other half is in Ethiopia. You can see the Somaliland units stationed in Buuhoodle here [3], you can also see the former leader of SSC faction in Buuhoodle who is now the Health Minister of Somaliland welcomed here [4]. Khatumo is not an administration but a group of elders who want to negotiate more representation from Somaliland, and there are ongoing talks between Somaliland and the elders from this community. But let us be clear here, they control no land nor have a standing army/militia of their own, I can find you a video of the head of this group clearly stating this much if you want. The previous incarnation of Khatumo was called SSC, the leader of which has successfully negotiated terms with Somaliland and is now part of the government. The same process of negotiating is happening right now. Kzl55 (talk) 15:34, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

The link showing Somaliland units stationed in Buuhoodle was actually uploaded on Youtube November 2016 not Feburary 2017, I've shown you the current situation as of February 2017 https://twitter.com/HassanIstiila/status/834476403819163658/ link], "Soldiers who carrying Somali flag took control of Buhoodle, the capital of the northern Ayn region in #Somalia, town being controlled by Khatuma", This clearly shows the same Buuhoodle militia that carry the Somalia Flag NOT the Somaliland flag took control of buuhoodle the capital of ayn. Here is a link of the same militia claiming they have successfully removed all influences in the city that cooperated with Somaliland and Ali Khalif who they claim doesn't represent their people. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9eTcTqIJg0/ link] Again this is February 2017 the most up to date situation in Buuhoodle. It is also worth remembering that Ali Khalif is not recognised universally to be a leader of populations that live in Sool, even so this still doesn't imply that Somaliland controls these regions the same way they directly control Las Anod. This means territory highlighted orange in Sool, (Apart from Las Anod) is currently not directly under the control of Somaliland. Its also important to remember that Khaatumo state has not officially declared that they've defected to Somaliland government, This is vital because it means there are officially more than just Somaliland and Puntland present in SSC regions that control territory which consequently means the map should also include the land Khaatumo controls. Either way the map doesn't seem to reflect the current situation in February 2017. MehdiHuusain (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:10, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

@CMD Please take into account the latest new information regarding the capital of one of the disputed areas Cayn. Given the fact that Somaliland do not control Buuhoodle the capital of Cayn as of Feburary 2017 evidence here: https://twitter.com/HassanIstiila/status/834476403819163658/ link] This means that Buuhoodle highlighted orange is factually incorrect as of 2017. MehdiHuusain (talk) —Preceding undated comment added 16:30, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

As you can see from the video I have linked to Somaliland military presence in Buuhoodle is clear. The former leader of that community (SSC which evolved to the current Khaatumo) is now part of the Somaliland government and you can see above the welcome he received in Buuhoodle as part of a Somaliland delegation. SSC started as a group opposed to Somaliland and was negotiated with and as a result incorporated into Somaliland, the same process is currently happening with Khatumo, though unlike SSC, they do not have much control on the ground.

I would like to remind you that Ali Khalif (the elder currently in talks with Somaliland) is the head of Khatumo group, and he admitted they do not have any capacity to form an administration (he tried to get recognition from the Somali Federal government and failed to secure much support), furthermore, the Somali Federal government itself allocated the seats for these regions to Somaliland (please see the links above). If the 'president' of Khatumo himself is saying they have no military means, then I am happy to take his word for it. Kzl55 (talk) 16:56, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

As i've said before, Buuhoodle is currently under the control of Buuhoodle militia and Somaliland are not currently present in the city as of February 2017, the link you've sent uploaded on Youtube in November 2016 does NOT refute the fact that in February 2017, anti-Somaliland millitia in Buuhoodle took over the city. Here's the evidence: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9eTcTqIJg0/ link] Do you dispute this? You seem to have dodged my point entirely, what Ali Khalif's opinion on Buuhoodle is or whether or not the seats in the upper house was given to Somaliland doesn't change the fact that Buuhoodle is not currently controlled by Somaliland, the only city in Sool Somaliland has full control over is Las Canod. Now keeping the map as it is, you're basically saying Buuhoodle and Boocame are controlled by Somaliland, which is factually incorrect, If Buuhoodle is controlled by Somaliland government in 2017 please provide sources. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MehdiHuusain (talk • contribs) 20:41, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

I have provided sources as recent as a couple of months ago. You have the Somaliland units video above as well as the visit by a delegation led by the Minister of Health of Somaliland, who is a Buuhoodle native and the people's welcome of the visit. You also have the fact that people in the district of Buuhoodle registered to vote in the upcoming presidential elections of Somaliland [5] as did the residents of Buuhoodle town [6] and there is also the fact that the President of Somaliland was in the district a mere 3 months ago [7]. The other issue is that just because a group uses the term 'administration' they do not automatically become an administration. Khatumo is a group of elders from that community who are currently in talks with Somaliland, just like the previous group from the region (SSC, who agreed terms with Somaliland and joined the political process, link above). You can not write articles based off tweets, please wait until a consensus is reached here and then we can move on to update the article. I would also like to remind you there is officially no such thing as Ayn region in either Somaliland or Somalia. What we are discussing is the town of Buuhoodle which lies directly on the border of Somaliland and Ethiopia. Do we agree on this? Buuhoodle town is part of a district that in turn is part of Togdheer region. The only instance where it was announced as a stand-alone region named Ayn was when Puntland did so, and as discussed above this is not accepted by the Federal Government that Puntland comes under, as clearly stated By the former President of Somalia that Puntland is comprised of 2.5 regions (Bari, Nugaal and northern Mudug, out of 18 regions of the Somali Republic) here. No mention of Ayn. Buuhoodle thus (according to office of Presidency of Somalia even) comes under region of Togdheer of Somaliland (please see the official decision above). As for the militia of that town, I have already included a video of Somaliland units in Buuhoodle, it was only a few months old and there were no major incidents that took place there. There could be a town militia that have their own agenda (be it Khatumo or otherwise) but your video does not refute the earlier videos including the arrival of a Somaliland minister who was the leader of Buuhoodle's SSC faction. He still holds office in Somaliland. As for Somaliland's presence here is a video of Somaliland distributing humanitarian aid to draught affected nomads in the district of Buuhoodle [8] just this last week. We clearly disagree here, perhaps a compromise would be to to label the town of Buuhoodle disputed, not between Somaliland and Puntland, but between Somaliland and local clans? Kzl55 (talk) 22:11, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Yes i agree, i think that would be fair. One other thing, when the former president of Somalia said that Puntland is compromised of 2.5 regions, it important to remember that, that was his opinion on the matter, he indictated Puntland Should only have 2.5 regions of Somalia. More importantly immediately in the video, he followed up with "laakin maanta Puntland waa immasa? waa toban goobalo ku dhowaad, Puntland maanta waxaa ka jiiro, oo maamulk keedo kuu jiiro ee wax kuu qeebsato, oo maamulka uu dhisanyahay waa sidaas" which translates to "but today Puntland has under its administration almost 10 regions, or 9 regions i think, Puntland today has, under its region in which it divides, and have built and developed for them includes all those regions " He clearly included SSC in one of those 9 regions he doesn't think Puntland should administer or have under its control. All this effectively tells us is that the former president thinks Puntland should only have those 2.5 regions of Somalia, it doesn't really shed any light on the current situation in the disputed areas. So using hyperbole or rhetoric of the former president of Somalia doesn't really say anything for the outright control of Somaliland in the regions. Another thing to remember is that Ali Khalif, is overwhelmingly rejected by Khaatumo militia in the south, this is why you always see Khaatumo forces fighting against Somaliland in spite Ali Khalif's efforts to persuades his own forces against it.Perfect example [9]. — Preceding unsigned comment added by MehdiHuusain (talk • contribs) 22:40, 24 February 2017 (UTC)

Ok, great that we are in agreement. Regarding the remarks of the former president of the Federal Government of Somalia, he clearly states that Puntland is comprised of 2.5 regions "waa laba gobol iyo bar" he is very definitive that it is comprised of 2.5 regions. The second part of his statement that you have quoted was "...sagaal gobol waa umalaynayaa, hadaanan khaldanayn... (I think so, if I am not mistaken), he is clearly unsure about this part whereas he was definitive in his previous statement. Furthermore, the statement was interpreted universally as him stating that Puntland is comprised of only 2.5 regions, which prompted the president of Puntland regional state to respond [10] protesting his President's statement. This is further supported by the decision of the Federal government that the regions of Sool and Sanaag are part and parcel of Somaliland and their seats will be allocated to Somaliland [11]. This is very important because it sets the the viewpoint of the government which Puntland comes under, seeing that Puntland is also claiming the land, even if they do not have effective control on the ground.

Back to the situation in Buuhoodle. As far as I know Ali Khalif is the political leader of the Khatumo group, why do you say he is not recognised universally? Also could you expand on 'Buuhoodle militia' as you have described? How can they be part of Khatumo if they are strongly opposed to the leader of Khatumo Ali Khalif? Has their been a coup?Kzl55 (talk) 06:45, 26 February 2017 (UTC)

References

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 8 February 2017

Hello, I would like to make a formal request to edit the map showing control of puntland and somaliland. This map is factually incorrect, majority of the territory highlighted orange on the eastern side of Sool and Sanaag are actually disputed areas and are not in control of somaliland. Also Puntland controls a lot more land in Sool Sanaag and Cayn than is represented in the map, i'm afraid theres an issue of bias here. Leaving this map unchanged will lead to viewers and readers having a misguided and wrong perception of who controls what. Evidence of this is in the source of the actual map. If you click on the map showing control of Puntland vs Somaliland and click "more details" and click on its source, you will find that the current version of the map is completely different from the source it claims to reference

To solve this problem in a fair way, either

1: upload a new image showing the disputed area in between both Puntland And Somaliland, and on the west side of the disputed area controlled by Somalilland and on the east side of the disputed area controlled by Puntland. This not only makes it a fair representation but also is correct and up to date

2: remove the incorrect map altogether

Thanks Zakariayps (talk) 09:28, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

There is already a map of 1, at the very start of the article. Please continue discussion above. CMD (talk) 09:36, 8 February 2017 (UTC)

Background

Kzl55, the text you have added doesn't pertain to the dispute between Puntland and Somaliland. It wasn't a long standing edit since you added it in 2017 without a reference. What is your reason for reinserting it?. Regards. EELagoon (talk) 09:00, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

The territory in question is in dispute in part due to the fact that it was part of the former British Somaliland protectorate as well as the former State of Somaliland. Such historical context is important and relevant to the background section. --Kzl55 (talk) 09:09, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

The dispute did not arise until 1998 when Puntland was established and declared autonomy. The point you are making was already made in the last paragraph on that section; "Somaliland claims the territory as part of the original bounds of the former British Somaliland protectorate, which the self-declared country regards itself as the successor to." EELagoon (talk) 09:22, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

The text provides relevant historical context to the section pertaining to the fact that the territory in question was not politically part of the Italian colony (which included current Puntland), but was instead part of the former protectorate (and later state) of Somaliland, such historical background is relevant to the section. The last paragraph states each side's claim. --Kzl55 (talk) 10:10, 20 May 2018 (UTC)

References

Youtube reference

The reference used by Kzl is a WP:YTREF which is unreliable. The reference appears to rely on the Youtube title. The second reference relies on that same Youtube video. The reference for the second paragraph which talks about the allocation of seats to Somaliland isn't an official source. It's not verifiable and I can't find any press releases from the official Somali government website. At least the fake map was removed that's a good. 1.239.136.52 (talk) 01:55, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

The reference does not rely on a Youtube title, it supports a statement made by the former President of Somalia whilst in office, the video footage linked is of him making that statement referenced in the text verbatim. Here is the President of Puntland responding to that statement by President Sheikh [12].

With regards to allocation of seats to Somaliland, this too was widely reported, the citation already has scans of the official press release, but here is VOA [13]. The current map was updated to show the area is disputed.--Kzl55 (talk) 10:43, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I am the one who updated the map. The reference relies on the Youtube title, the reference you posted ALSO relies on the Youtube link. The content of the videos do not much up to the title and is contradictory to what he said. YP:YTREF should only be used when verifiable and uploaded by a reliable source. This is not the case.

The second paragraph doesn't mention ANY allocation of seats to Somaliland. This is what the paragraph says "The event focused on the issue of the Sool and Sanaag Regions of Somaliland in the Upper House of the Federal Parliament." This is what you posted "Furthermore, in preparation for the Somali presidential election of 2017 an official decision from the office of presidency of the Somalia on the allocation of seats for the upper house of the parliament of Somalia was reached. The seats for both Sool and Sanaag were allocated to Somaliland.[21]". The seats were actually allocated to Puntland & Somaliland after the National Leadership Forum in Mogadishu on 25th December 2016. [14]Banco de Sarapio (talk) 16:34, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

The content of the video directly support the text in the article, the President states in the video "...Puntland state, for instance, consists of two and half regions (out of Somalia's original 18 regions)...".

The second source clearly states, per your Google translation, "...the Sool and Sanaag regions of Somaliland...". I have amended the text to closely match the statement in the communiqué, and included reliable none blog source in VOA. --Kzl55 (talk) 17:56, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Now you are attempting to move goalposts. Originally you attempted to use the reference to say that the seats were located to Somaliland however now you are inferring that the office of Somali presidency recognizes the regions as part of Somaliland. I provided 2 reliable references that seats were allocated to both regions which undermines your claim.

As for the YTREF, I would appreciate that you realize that he says Puntland exists in reality of 9 regions not 2.5 which it was originally supposed to in the pre-1991 regions. Banco de Sarapio (talk) 20:03, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Your removal of relevant text to the article, sourced with reliable citations is not appropriate. Do you dispute that the office of Presidency of Somalia released a communiqué referring to the disputed territory as "Somaliland's Sool and Sanaag regions" following Somalia's National Leadership Forum (as attended by leaders of Somalia's government and federal states)? You have asked for a reliable source above and I have provided a link to VOA confirming the original citation. Please perform a self-revert and restore the text and citations.

Your links are not reliable sources per WP:RSSELF and WP:UGC, blogs and self-published sources are not considered reliable sources on Wikipedia, which is why I provided the VOA link above. As such the text is not appropriately sourced, again, please perform a self-revert. --Kzl55 (talk) 20:22, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I dispute the original claim you made that the seats were allocated to Somaliland which the reference you provided did NOT state. The VOASomali link does not prove that point at all. Your rewording was inferring that the Somali presidency recognized Sool, Sanaag and Cayn as part of Somaliland however I have shown you reliable links that the seats were allocated to both regions for political representation in the Upper House. The references I provided are widely used on Wikipedia and considered reliable. The Youtube link is absolutely not a reliable link for a contentious article. Banco de Sarapio (talk) 20:34, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

My question was specific, it was not related to any other text than the one you removed from the article here [15]. I will repeat it, do you dispute that the office of Presidency of Somalia released a communiqué referring to the disputed territory as "Somaliland's Sool and Sanaag regions" following Somalia's National Leadership Forum (as attended by leaders of Somalia's government and federal states)? If you do not then please perform a self-revert and restore the relevant and reliably sourced text that you have removed.

With regards to the sources you have used, blogs and self-published sources are not considered reliable sources on Wikipedia, per WP:RSSELF and WP:UGC, which was in part why I have provided the VOA link. --Kzl55 (talk) 21:01, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

None of the sources I have used are blogs or self-published sources, they are widely used news sources on Wikipedia. The VOA link you provided did not state what you claimed which was that Somaliland was allocated the seats for Sool and Sanaag. Contrary I have now provided a 3rd reference this time an official one from the Somali government website that shows that both regions divided up the seats which is verifiable. The communique's reference to Somaliland is negated by the outcome of the National Leadership Forum which contradicts the earlier statement. It's also not an official acknowledgement of Somaliland's claim over the regions. I am also concerned that the heading is titled 'Other viewpoints' when it seems WP:UNDUE. Do you have a problem with YTEF being removed or do you still consider it a reliable source? Banco de Sarapio (talk) 22:05, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

I have specifically linked to this edit of yours above [16], in which you have removed relevant and well sourced text. In the text that you have removed (in that edit), no one made the claim that "Somaliland was allocated the seats for Sool and Sanaag", nor was it claimed to be an "official acknowledgement of Somaliland's claim over the regions". The text is careful to only mention what the cited communiqué explicitly stated. So, for the last time, do you dispute that the office of Presidency of Somalia released a communiqué referring to the disputed territory as "Somaliland's Sool and Sanaag regions" following Somalia's National Leadership Forum? If you do not dispute it please perform a self-revert.

Please note that refusal to get the point is considered disruptive and time wasting on Wikipedia and may lead to sanctions.--Kzl55 (talk) 22:40, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Please note that pushing a POV with unreliable sources that fail verifiability is considered disruptive and time wasting on Wikipedia and may lead to sanctions. Moving on from that bullshit.... What I removed was text that was UNDUE and inferring that the Somali government recognizes Sool and Sanaag as part of Somaliland when the outcome of the National Leadership Forum states the contrary which is that both states were allocated seats for those regions, I used an official source as well as reliable news sources. That's UNDUE.

You are also lying when you are saying "no one made the claim that "Somaliland was allocated the seats for Sool and Sanaag" your edit is available here.[17] Banco de Sarapio (talk) 22:56, 7 July 2018 (UTC) You haven't answered whether you are willing to concede that the YTREF is unreliable and thus should be removed. Banco de Sarapio (talk) 23:00, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Kzl, this is the official communique not a press release; " The remaining 6 members of the Upper House of Parliament will be divided equally between Somaliland and Puntland, reflecting both their political status and maturity and the fact that they encompass the largest numbers of regions."[18] Banco de Sarapio (talk) 23:06, 7 July 2018 (UTC)

Please discuss one issue at a time (you may also want to have a read through WP:Civility). Your link is dated 27 January 2016 [19], the communiqué I have cited is dated 8 December 2016 [20], they are a year apart. Furthermore, yours does not mention the disputed territory of Sool or Sanaag at all (subject of this WP article) [21]. So far, you have not disputed the fact that the office of Presidency of Somalia released a communiqué referring to the disputed territory as "Somaliland's Sool and Sanaag regions", yet you have removed reliably sourced text stating exactly that, all the while refusing to get the point on the talk page or making a self-revert. This is disruptive, I advice you to stop. --Kzl55 (talk) 14:14, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

You are the one that seems to lack civility. Accusing me of 3RR and threatening me with sanctions is not going to work since I am not being disruptive. Stick to the topic, you do not own this article so stop editorializing it. Your initial edit was simply false but now you are moving goalposts and POV pushing the press release to prove that the Somali government acknowledges the regions as part of Somalia however I have shown you that at the end of the conference both regions were allocated seats. The one I posted is a communique as a result of the conference and that Puntland and Somaliland divided up the last seat, it is consistent with the 2 other references from Goobjoog and Garowe Online. Banco de Sarapio (talk) 14:20, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

You have removed relevant and well sourced text that you are not disputing in this talk page. The edit you have removed [22] states "the communiqué released by the office of Presidency of Somalia regarding Somalia's National Leadership Forum referred to the disputed territory as Gobollada Sool iyo Sanaag ee Soomaaliland (Somaliland's Sool and Sanaag regions)" this is wholly supported by the cited source. As I have stated above, your link references an older statement, it is dated 27 January 2016 [23], the communiqué I have cited is dated 8 December 2016 [24], they are a year apart. Your other links are not reliable sources per WP:RSSELF and WP:UGC, blogs and self-published sources are not considered reliable sources on Wikipedia. --Kzl55 (talk) 14:30, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

I removed POV pushing and UNDUE material which alludes that the Somali government recognizes the regions as part of Somaliland. The National Leadership Forum did not refer to it as part of Somaliland, it concluded by allocating each state with an equal amount of seats which are 3. It is available on the official communique, what you posted a press release of the upcoming National Leadership Forum not the conclusion. Both the sources I posted are widely used on Wikipedia. If you have a problem with them take it to the RS:Noticeboard. Be sure to tag me when you do. Banco de Sarapio (talk) 14:51, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

The text you removed [25] is careful to only mention what the cited communiqué released by Somalia's Office of Presidency explicitly stated, there are no allusions of any kind, and you did not dispute that statement despite being asked repeatedly in this discussion. Furthermore, the VillaSomalia link you have cited [26] is 1) dated a whole year before the communiqué in question (as explained above), and 2) does not mention the disputed territory of Sool and Sanaag subject of this article, unlike the communiqué cited in the text [27] which explicitly states "the Sool and Sanaag regions of Somaliland" (Gobollada Sool iyo Sanaag ee Somaliland). As for the blogs and user generated sites you have used, these kind of sites are not considered reliable sources on Wikipedia, please read WP:RSSELF and WP:UGC, this is in part why I posted the VOA link. --Kzl55 (talk) 15:11, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

If you have a problem with reliable news sites then take it to RS:Noticeboard. You can claim that they are blogs as many times as you want it won't make it the case. This is a contentious article and your POV pushing is not appropriate. The Somali government has no official position on which party Sool and Sanaag is or should be administered by. The press release could also be referring to the parts of Sool and Sanaag that is under Somaliland administration given it does not have de facto control over all of it and due to the language it is open to interpretation. You should refrain from pushing that POV and remove it. Banco de Sarapio (talk) 15:18, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Nope. Wikipedia editors do not need to take up every none reliable site used to Noticeboard, this is why WP:RSSELF and WP:UGC are useful. You are now aware that blogs and user generated sites are not considered reliable sources on Wikipedia.

Please do not offer your own interpretations and stick to the wording of the communiqué: "the Sool and Sanaag regions of Somaliland" (Gobollada Sool iyo Sanaag ee Somaliland). This communiqué was released by the office of Presidency on the back of Somalia's National Leadership forum as attended by leaders of Somalia. It is relevant, reliably sourced and worded to match the citation. Your removal of text (or any interpretation you offer) can be seen as "POV pushing" (as you have put it) and original research. --Kzl55 (talk) 15:38, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

None of them are blogs or user generated sites hence take your issue up with RS:Noticeboard. I am asking other editors to provide their opinion on this since you seem hellbent on pushing your POV. Your YREF is also a dubious source in this contentious article. Banco de Sarapio (talk) 15:41, 8 July 2018 (UTC)

Somalia(Puntland)–Somaliland dispute

This issue is generally considered to be a dispute between Puntland and Somaliland, if it is to be described as the "Somalia-Somaliland conflict," there needs to be literature to support this.

• A dispute between Puntland and Somaliland
• Puntland, Somaliland Dispute
• Tensions between Somaliland, Puntland

--Freetrashbox (talk) 03:54, 27 August 2022 (UTC) Freetrashbox (talk) 03:54, 27 August 2022 (UTC)

References