Talk:Ptolemy Ceraunus

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Brennus and Bolgius

Could someone who knows the subject area help expand/correct the Ptolemy Keraunos article? I want to add to that article the relevant material about Brennus and/or Bolgius (not mentioned in this article, but mentioned here), but I am confused because there seem to be inconsistencies:

1 - "In 279, a new enemy appeared in what is now northern Bulgaria: the Galatians. They belonged to the La Tène-culture, which had its heartland in northeastern France and southern Germany. In the fifth and fourth centuries, it had expanded to the west into the countries where people spoke a language that modern scholars call 'Celtic'. Because the Greeks used the word 'Celt' to describe all barbarians in the west (except for those on the British isles), twentieth-century scholars have used the word 'Celtic' to describe all La Tène-people, even when they did not live in the west and did not speak a Celtic language. Therefore, the Galatians are sometimes called Celts, which is in fact incorrect but has the advantage that people immediately understand that the Galatians were savages." and "In the spring of 279, their leader Bolgius invaded Macedonia, and when Keraunos offered battle, he was defeated, captured, and decapitated."

2 - "Ptolemy Keraunos was killed in the wars against the Gauls of Bolgius and Brennus, who were migrating to what became known as Galatia."

3 - "The Galatians were in their origin a part of that great Celtic migration which invaded Macedon, led by the 'second' Brennus, a Gaulish chief. He invaded Greece in 281 BCE with a huge warband and was turned back in the nick of time from plundering the temple of Apollo at Delphi. At the same time, another Gaulish group were migrating with their women and children through Thrace. They had split off from Brennus' Gauls in 279 BCE, and had migrated into Thrace under their leaders Leonnorius and Lutarius. These Gaulish invaders appeared in Asia Minor in 278–277 BCE; others invaded Macedon, killed the Ptolemaic king Ptolemy Ceraunus but were eventually ousted by Antigonus Gonatas, the grandson of the defeated diadoch Antigonus the One-Eyed."

I've also copied this to Talk:Galatia. Thanks for any advice/help. Carcharoth 16:14, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

These are chiefly disagreements about the order of events; the Gaulish attack on Delphi and the fall of Ptolemy Keraunos probably come down to us through different sources, and the question of whether the two mentions of Gauls are the same band is a matter of interpretation. Both versions should probably be represented in the article.
I believe the assertion that Galatian was not a Celtic language to be a nationalist absurdity of some kind, but I defer to those who are better read on the subject. Septentrionalis 16:52, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Hmm... I don't think we can call the assertion a nationalist absurdity. The article is written by Jona Lendering, a respected scholar, and her website, Livius,org, is considered among the best in absolute regarding classical studies. This statement probably represents a view in contemporary scholarship; but in my opinion it should be treated with caution, as it appears a quite new theory to me.

For a full list of the sources on the death of Ptolemy I advice looking this page, where they are all the sources with the links to the texts of the classical sources online [1]--Aldux 17:32, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for the comments. Though I raised the question, I'm not going to try and write anything, as this does look like it will require rather careful research, which I'm hoping someone else might be able to do at some point. Carcharoth 20:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

About the link that Aldux provided ([2]), I see that there are several Ptolemies mentioned there: Ptolemaeus Ceraunus (=Ptolemy Keraunos), Ptolemaeus the son of Lysimachus, a Ptolemaeus who "punishes Zoilus for his outspoken criticism of Homerus' poetry", Ptolemaeus I who sends Theodorus as an envoy to Lysimachus, and finally a Ptolemaus for whom Philocles captures Caunus. Are these all the same or different Ptolemies? I wonder if any are missing from Ptolemy (disambiguation)?

Speaking of which... I wonder if I could solicit comments (from both of you) on what I've done at Ptolemy (disambiguation). I have expanded the page a fair bit, as I was annoyed at having to click back and forth between the links to try and get clear in my mind when and where all these Ptolemies were, and what the links (if any) were between them. I fear that what I have done goes beyond what a disambiguation page should be; I believe is is suggested that a disambiguation page shouldn't really link to anything other than the things it is disambiguating between. As I've been expanding the disambiguation page, I've wanted to add more links to explain things and lead people off into reading about other areas. I guess I'm edging towards an article that could be called "History of the name Ptolemy"! Oh, and Ptolemy Keraunos is easily the most interesting of the Ptolemies! Along with Ptolemy of Mauretania. I think I'm going to have Ptolemies on the brain for the next few days!! :-) Carcharoth 20:40, 25 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

They are different; as you have aleady undrstood, Ptolemaeus Ceraunus is Ptolemy Keraunos, than there is a Ptolemy son of the former king Lysimachus, the Ptolemy who punishes Zoilus is Ptolemy II Philadelphus, the Ptolemaeus I who sends Theodorus is Ptolemy I Soter, as for the last I believe that he also is Ptolemy II Philadelphus.

Regarding the disambiguation page, while there's nothing bad, on the contrary, to give a brief description of each; but I must object regards adding external links. This said, it's a formidable improvement. --Aldux 00:12, 26 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]