Talk:Protestant theologies

Trinitarianism

The state of the article:

Aleph: The lede is too short.

Beth: Everything is written down as it comes up in perfect disorder. F.ex. first:

Holy Trinity and Christology

Evangelical churches and denominations defend a Trinitarian theology. ... a candidate for the lede!

God

For the evangelicals, the person of God, is the creator of heaven and earth. ... for all Christians (and Jews and Muslims!!)

The natural order of explaining things is to start with general statements by using known notions (such as Protestantism) and defining traits (crucicentrism, conversionism, biblicism, activism), and afterwards presenting details on how this is manifested/practiced. It should be known to all that Christians are Monotheist, Trinitarian (by default), and that Protestants declare some form of "sola scriptura". These things are probably particulars found on Evangelical home pages, that could safely be presumed by the context. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 08:24, 22 April 2019 (UTC)

"Christians are Monotheist, Trinitarian (by default)"

Wrong. Nontrinitarianism has been professed by various Christian novements since the 1st millennium. Adoptionism, Arianism, the beliefs of the Ebionites, Socinianism, Unitarianism, Gnosticism, Modalistic Monarchianism, Patripassianism, Sabellianism, Tritheism, Binitarianism, and Marcionism have all been Nontrinitarian, but firmly Christian. Dimadick (talk) 11:29, 25 May 2019 (UTC)

Ah, that's a disproof by cherry-picking rare cases, mostly from the far far past, but it is a diversion, since that wasn't my point. Now let's get back to the real point: the article should be written so that it makes it easy to discern fastly what distinguishes Protestant theology in the lede (not that Trinitarian, believe-in-the-Bible stuff) let me help:

• the priest is seen as a guide in theology rather than an holiness conduit of God-power to the believer (cf. Catholicism, Orthodoxies, etc.)
• Protestantism stresses the believers' direct contact with God, and some "sola scriptura" doctrine, stressing the opinion that the believer should form his/her own opinion of the Bible by reading it him/herself,
• some (but not all) Protestants stress a born-again personal conversion, some go so far as to claim a Believers Baptism,
• there is a general inclination towards Paul's epistles among Protestants.

Now do you understand? The article lede mentions random stuff without creating a coherent explanation, ignoring the fact that all the terms mentioned are used by Catholics and Orthodoxes too, in quite a different context. The lede is as inferior as when I saw it the last time - nothing has improved. Rursus dixit. (^mbork³!) 12:38, 29 June 2020 (UTC)

Article scope

User:Anupam's recent edit adding "Protestant theology" as an alternate title raises an important question that we need to resolve. What is the scope of this article? Is this going to be an article on theology within Evangelicalism or is this going to be dedicated to Protestant theology. Protestantism and Evangelical Protestantism are not the same thing. All evangelicals are Protestants, but not all Protestants are evangelicals (in the sense of adhering to Evangelicalism). If this article is going to become primarily about Protestantism in general, then we need to move it to Protestant theology, which is currently a redirect to the Protestantism article. Ltwin (talk) 19:10, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

User:Ltwin, indeed. This article is problematic itself because there is no unified "evangelical theology" or "Protestant theology". Evangelicals of the Reformed, Methodist, Baptist, and Pentecostal traditions will teach very different doctrines so that there is not a common denominator. One way to save this article (if you'll allow me to use that word), might be for this to be turned into a disambiguation page with links including Wesleyan-Arminian theology, Reformed theology, Baptist theology, etc. Another method might be to create sections on each of these traditions within this article with headings such as "Wesleyan-Arminian theology", "Reformed theology", "Baptist theology", etc. What are your thoughts? Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 19:42, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

In general, I'm fine with that approach. It would be helpful to focus specifically on theological issues and controversies that have animated evangelicals thoughout history. For example, there are evangelical Presbyterians and then there are liberal/mainline Presbyterians that wouldn't fit this definition. Same with Methodists, etc. This article could then could have sections that highlight theological concerns unique to the evangelical Reformed/Presbyterian churches, etc. We also could explore historical developments and controversies. For example, how have views on conversion/new birth experiences within the broader evangelical world developed, shifted over time. Those are just some of my thoughts. Ltwin (talk) 19:56, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

Another thought, Anupam. Maybe we need to use this article to discuss more fully the main characteristics of evangelicals (as in the Bebbington quadrilateral) rather than re-hashing standard Protestant theology (such as the current organization of the article does). For example, what does conversionism or biblicism or crucicentrism mean in general for evangelical theology? Maybe we should have a section on the defining characteristics (such as the quadrilateral and the theologies behind it) and then have sections that look at specific movements as you suggested above. And if we have enough information, we can even include a history section specifically looking at historical development and controversies. Ltwin (talk) 20:02, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

User:Ltwin, thanks for your comments. For now, I have added a section on "Teaching by denomination", with the aforementioned subheadings. I will let you decide whether to keep, delete, expand, or rework the rest. I personally think that the rest of the article is confusing to a reader and that the individual beliefs held by various traditions (Baptists, Methodists, Reformed, etc.) would be best explicated under the subheadings that I have added. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 20:10, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

User:Anupam, I think its a good start. Hopefully, some other editors will come along and help improve it. I've got my hands full working on other articles at the moment, so I don't know how much I will be able to contribute to this one. Ltwin (talk) 20:44, 23 March 2020 (UTC)

User:Ltwin, I just finished rewriting the article and used the model I outlined above. I used what I could from the previous version, though much of it is covered already in Christian theology. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:44, 24 March 2020 (UTC)

User:ServB1, you do not have consensus to create content forks of articles. You need to discuss what you wish to do here. There is no such thing as a generic Evangelical theology. Both User:Ltwin and I are very concerned about your editing behaviour across various Wikipedia articles. Anupam^Talk 01:56, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello User:Ltwin and User:Anupam. Evangelical theology and Protestant theology are 2 different subjects. If they were synonyms, why would there be a Protestantism article and an Evangelicalism article? It's a shame that User:Anupam completely changed the article without any discussion before. The evangelical theology article that User:Anupam deleted was based on the plans found in 9 books with the name evangelical theology and has existed in its form in 4 languages since 2016. Thanks for your help.

• Roger E. Olson, The Westminster Handbook to Evangelical Theology, Westminster John Knox Press, USA, 2004
• Gerald R. McDermott, The Oxford Handbook of Evangelical Theology, Oxford University Press, UK, 2013
• Timothy Larsen, Daniel J. Treier, The Cambridge Companion to Evangelical Theology, Cambridge University Press, UK, 2007
• Paul Jewett, God, Creation and Revelation: A Neo-Evangelical Theology, Wipf and Stock Publishers, USA, 2000
• Gary J. Dorrien, The Remaking of Evangelical Theology, Westminster John Knox Press, USA, 1998
• Roger E. Olson, The Westminster Handbook to Evangelical Theology, Westminster John Knox Press, USA, 2004
• Walter A. Elwell, Evangelical Dictionary of Theology, Baker Academic, USA, 2001
• Roger E. Olson, Pocket History of Evangelical Theology, InterVarsity Press, USA, 2007
• Robert Paul Lightner, Handbook of Evangelical Theology, Kregel Academic, USA, 1995

--ServB1 (talk) 02:05, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

Thanks for your reply User:ServB1. Note that your claim of changing the article without any discussion is false, granted that the discussion about the article scope was started on 23 March 2020, as evidenced above. Your edits have also been discussed here and here with User:Ltwin and User:Walter Görlitz. Please kindly wait until others comment before altering the article. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:11, 10 May 2020 (UTC)

ServB1, I certainly think there could be an article on Evangelical theology as distinct from Protestant theology in general. My issue with this article has always been with representing the full breadth of Evangelicalism, rather than a narrow conception of Evangelicalism that is not supported by reliable sources. The original article did need work, as the content was either too general (as in it applied to Protestants or even to all Christians) or it seemed to paper over the real theological differences between evangelicals. I don't agree with expanding the scope to "Protestant theology". I think "evangelical theology" is a legitimate topic, but the way it was approached was problematic. Ltwin (talk) 05:35, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Ltwin, the issue is that many traditions that consider themselves "evangelical" are also considered "Protestant". Would Anglican, Baptist, and Methodist theology be discussed in the Protestant theology article or the Evangelical theology article? Having two articles would violate WP:CFORK because many Protestant traditions consider themselves evangelical or have an evangelical wing (as understood in the American sense of the word). You would have the same divisions according to denominational lines because the Free Methodist Church, Anglican Church in North America, Evangelical Friends Church International, and Presbyterian Church in America (all of which would be considered evangelical or Protestant) certainly don't teach the same doctrine and represent different theological traditions. What are your thoughts? Anupam^Talk 05:47, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

My thoughts are that an article on evangelical theology would focus on theological issues that have been of particular concern to evangelicals or at least of particular concern among evangelicals within a particular tradition. For example, Pietistic Lutherans, evangelical Anglicans and evangelical Presbyterians have theological concerns that are different from their non-evangelical co-religionists. One example, the emphasis on the new birth/conversion experience among evangelicals across denominations. Another would be evangelical views on biblical authority, which tend to go in different directions from more mainline Protestants. These particular theological concerns would need to be gleaned from the reliable sources, and ServB1 has provided a good list of sources that do discuss an "evangelical theology". This article could discuss the different influences on evangelical theology such as Pietism, Puritanism, revivalism, Wesleyanism, the Princeton theology, Fundamentalism, etc. from an historical perspective as well. To my mind, there is more than enough information to create a unique article distinct from the general topic of Protestant theology.

I'm also think its a good idea to have an article on Protestant theology. If we're going to have one it shouldn't only be a list of different denominations and their beliefs. We probably need to note some of the commonalities that have historically been associated with Protestantism, like the five solas and the priesthood of all believers. Those are just my thoughts. Ltwin (talk) 07:10, 12 May 2020 (UTC)

User:Ltwin, such an article would be unnecessary and very confusing. Even on the interpretation of the Bible, evangelicals differ. Methodists teach prima scriptura while the Reformed teach sola scriptura. The Reformed teach covenant theology while some Baptists might teach dispensationalism. It is much more better to have separate articles on Wesleyan theology, Baptist theology, Anglican theology, Anabaptist theology, etc. (all of which could fall under the evangelical camp) rather than to jumble everything up in an "Evangelical theology" article, when various evangelical things teach very different doctrines regarding topics such as biblical authority, the new birth, etc (general topics are already covered in Christian theology). Such an article would continue to push the POV that there is one monothilic evangelical theology and that all evangelicals believe and worship in the same way; we have already seen this with articles such as worship service (evangelicalism), which gives the impression that anyone calling themselves an evangelical worships with contemporary music in a megachurch with no liturgy. Also have a look at this edit, which intentionally changed the word "Pentecostal" to "Evangelical" and then attempted to state that all evangelicals are ordained in some kind of ceremony called "pastoral consecration". Do you think that Free Methodist elders or Anglican priests of evangelical churchmanship are ordained that way? I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 01:28, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello User:Ltwin and User:Anupam. I mentioned that it was a shame that the article was changed without any discussion, and now I specify: with other people (besides the two of you). However, thank you for giving me the opportunity to participate in the discussion. First, as User:Ltwin said, not all Protestants are Evangelicals (read Protestantism and Evangelicalism). In the original Evangelical theology article, which was deleted, there were already various nuances according to the movements in each section (as in the references), and had 94 references (French and English). References in 2 languages provide a more international overview on the subject. If you have ideas for adding information, everyone is free, but it must be based on several different resources. In the original evangelical theology article, the plan was based on the 9 books in bibliography and the confessions of faith of evangelical denominations. It is normal that the article has similarities to an article about Protestant theology or Christian theology. Evangelical theology is a Christian theology, but that is not a reason to hide this information. Finally, as mentioned by Rjensen on the talk page of the Evangelicalism article: “the article stands by itself and people come here to learn about Evangelicalism and they may or may not know much about other religious groups. We never assume readers know a lot about Catholics or Amish or Unitarians etc etc. Rjensen (talk) 04:05, 22 March 2020 (UTC) ”. Thanks for your help. --ServB1 (talk) 02:08, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Hello User:Ltwin and User:Anupam. As the majority (2/3) has given its agreement and that there have been no other opinions for 15 days for the publication of the article, I will therefore publish this article which exists since 2016 in 4 languages. If someone wants to change something on the plan, they are free to do so, but will have to show more than the 9 books on which the plan is based. Thanks for your help. --ServB1 (talk) 23:39, 28 May 2020 (UTC)