Talk:Protect and Survive

Protest or Protect, and Survive

Please someone change the disambiguation entry in the page from:

• Not to be confused with Protest and Survive. to:

  Not to be confused with Protect and survive song from Jethro Tull band.

Thanks, Paul188.25.53.199 (talk) 04:52, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Dismbuation

Please someone change the disambiguation entry in the page from:

• Not to be confused with Protest and Survive. to:

  Not to be confused with Protect and survive song from Jethro Tull band.

—Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.25.53.199 (talk) 04:50, 19 December 2010 (UTC)

Song

the discharge song is actually called, "PROTEST and survive"

This entry is reviewed here.-- _{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus | talk}  19:05, 19 March 2007 (UTC)

"Protect and Survive" name - first used when?

This eBay auction shows that the name was used on official documents as far back as 1950. Is this as early as it gets? 81.153.111.37 05:15, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

The book you refer to is not a 1950s training manual (as it makes out), but a recent book cashing in on the phrase. I think it's a collection of the original 1950s manuals, but these were not emblazoned with 'Protect and Survive'! I've noticed it causing some confusion and consternation among Cold War enthusiasts. The 1970s/80s Protect and Survive was the first to use the term to my knowledge. --taras 22:37, 1 December 2007 (UTC)

Weird music

"Each [instalment] closed with a memorably unsettling electronic musical phrase." <shudder> I recall that from Threads. If anyone has an audio sample, could we include it on this page? 68Kustom (talk) 06:05, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

I have a smaple of it somewhere, I use it as a text message/ring tone on my phone, but IIRC it's still under copyright to whoever made it (possibly BBC Radiophonics). I don't think we'd get away 'fair use' for it either. --RedHillian (talk) 21:53, 5 April 2008 (UTC)

The music was specially composed by Roger Limb of the Radiophonic Workshop, and is under Crown Copyright. --taras (talk) 15:23, 24 August 2008 (UTC)

Radio

Patrick Allen is not credited anywhere in Threads even though he is heard; The article says:

Samples of these recordings are shown in Threads, with credit to Allen given by mistake in the closing roll

There is no credit to Allen in Threads and I do not recall any other voice in Threads giving out Protect and Survive instructions. There are several scenes in Threads in which the Protect and Survive instructions are supposedly on the radio; these are:

• When Ruth Beckett and Jimmy Kemp are decorating their flat
• At the Kemp house on the morning of the attack

In both scenes this is the voice of Patrick Allen that is taken directly from the films, not the audio versions which as the article correctly states is spoken by a male and female voice that is not Allen. Gitfinger (talk) 13:56, 17 June 2008 (UTC)

I have now made the amendments on the article page to remove the incorrect information. Gitfinger (talk) 08:15, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Note -- this is actually incorrect. The The Radio version is heard during Threads and I have amended the article to reflect this. I still do not know who the two narrators are, but the male voice can be heard in Threads when Bill Kemp is building the shelter. Apologies for the error. Gitfinger (talk) 15:41, 5 January 2009 (UTC)

Impact

The 'Impact' section of the Protect and Survive article is fairly dismal. It is nothing more than a poorly written list of trivia that ranges from fairly relevant to complete nonsense that adds nothing to the understanding of Protect and Survive or from the era it came from. Vague connections to books like "Watchmen" are neither interesting or useful. It is key to remember that Protect and Survive was a catalyst around the entire subject of civil defence during the early 1980s in the UK that resulted in many books and newspaper/magazine articles on which public opinion was profoundly split. I feel this section of the article trivialises Protect and Survive rather spectacularly. Gitfinger (talk) 08:25, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

Further inaccuracies

I think it's fair to say most of this article is ill-informed at best. For example, "Five instructional booklets were produced for the programme" - this is untrue, and the five that are listed are just government information published around the same time (all of which happen to be available on the same external website).

If we were going by "which booklets feature th P&S logo", it would be four: Protect and Survive, Civil Defence: Why We Need It, Domestic Nuclear Shelters, and Domestic Nuclear Shelters: Technical Guidance. But CD: Why We Need It was only produced after the furore about P&S in 1980, so it can hardly have been "produced for the programme". Of the other booklets listed, UKWMO was published by the MoD (rather than the Home Office) and was never made publicly available, and Home Defence and the Farmer came out in 1958. Possibly whoever wrote that bit of the article meant Civil Defence and the Farmer, which came out in 1985.

And so the disinformation continues... at least the article doesn't claim the P&S booklet was distributed to every household in Britain... *sigh* --taras (talk) 00:05, 30 August 2008 (UTC)

I've tried tidying up the Protect and Survive booklets section where essentially three booklets were printed and Why We Need It was essentially a political pamphlet. It's not perfect (I intend to provide some references) but I think is factually more accurate than it was. Gitfinger (talk) 10:31, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

Having had another look through the article the idea that it was a "programme" needs to be removed completely. Protect and Survive was never a "programme" to the best of my knowledge and was actually based on a restricted Home Office circular sent to Local Authorities in 1976. I am 99% sure that pressure from the public and the press led to its publication - I'm sure either The Times or Sunday Times published bits of it in January 1980 whilst it was still restricted. Gitfinger (talk) 10:39, 1 September 2008 (UTC)

You're right - though it was never a major secret, the booklet's existence came to public notice in a Times article in early 1980. I'd say it was a campaign rather than a programme. As I understand it the government viewed it as an unusual PR campaign based around the TV films, with radio and booklet as spin-offs (in that order of importance). Apologies for not actually updating the article rather than just moaning on all the time but it would take me forever to cite all this! Will do so once I have a bit more time -taras (talk) 13:50, 2 September 2008 (UTC)

I've had a go at adding this information in the new "Publication of the Pamphlet" section. Gitfinger (talk) —Preceding undated comment was added at 10:24, 12 September 2008 (UTC). Thanks to Milkmeister for the spelling corrections. Gitfinger (talk) 14:59, 16 September 2008 (UTC)

Watchmen

Evening! I've removed the reference to the Watchmen comic, as I found the pictures in question and it's much closer to US civil defence literature (e.g. one on issue 6, p28 makes reference to fallout shelters and is in an American style). *Although, interestingly enough, the font used for episode titles within the comics is Futura Condensed, same as P&S, but as this is just a standard font I wouldn't read too much into it. --taras (talk) 17:46, 26 September 2008 (UTC)

Wartime Broadcasting Service

I've added the section just released today about the script produced between the BBC and the Government advising the public on what to do in when under nuclear attack. I purchased the full set of documents from The National Archives and they do read like an early template to Protect and Survive. The section probably need a bit of grammatical polish but I thought this release was so significant it should go up asap. Gitfinger (talk) 13:48, 3 October 2008 (UTC)

I've a bit more to this section that although I have to admit makes it a bit "wordy" I think the history of Protect and Survive is significant enough to warrant it; the background to the booklet is almost unknown and information released by The National Archives on the 3rd of October 2008 has never been seen before. Gitfinger (talk) 13:47, 4 October 2008 (UTC)

Good stuff, though of course the booklet was published in 1975 not 1980 so I've changed that :). Also, some of the info in the newly released file (in particular the script) was the subject of a BBC FoI request in 2006(?) and has been floating around for a while. First time a lot of the other correspondence has been published though. Also, the mysterious 'Probert' is one Peter Probert, whose identity I'm still trying to work out but he appears a lot in the P&S files too so he's obviously quite a central figure. Detective time!!! --taras (talk) 12:55, 11 October 2008 (UTC)

Media

Before anyone gets upset about some of the edits I made in the Media section, please allow me to explain: Technically Protect and Survive was never a "programme" so I removed this. I also removed the comments that "Public information films are often made by small contractors" because it really adds nothing to the understanding of Protect and Survive and seems more appropriate to be on a page about Public Information Films. I added a citation about the fact Richard Taylor Cartoons having made it from the British Government's National Archives web site which is the most reliable source I can find. It is repeated across the Internet as being the studio who made the films but no one quotes a reliable source of this being so. I also removed the comment saying Roger Limb composed the musical phrase for Protect and Survive - it may well be true, however to be thorough it really does need a reliable reference to back this up. Protect and Survive is the stuff of urban legends so I think we must try to ensure all information is verifiable. Gitfinger (talk) 08:18, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

At the risk of sounding undecided I am now a bit unsure about the reference to Richard Taylor Cartoons being responsible for making the Protect and Survive films; although I have cited a government web site for all I know this may be a circular reference where the editors of that web site may be citing Richard Taylor Cartoons because it is so prevalent on the web; the fact something is much repeated doesn't make it true. If anyone has a more substantial reference I'd be very pleased if they used it. Gitfinger (talk) 07:11, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

It was definitely Richard Taylor Cartoon Films. Sorry I still can't be more specific, but I've just finished my postgraduate thesis on this and it hasn't been marked yet. I will update the article with citations once it's marked :) --taras (talk) 13:33, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Can someone please tell me why a link to the protect and survive channel on youtube is not suitable. Thanks —Preceding unsigned comment added by 94.194.147.199 (talk) 23:49, 18 February 2009 (UTC)

For copyright reasons. Nick Cooper (talk) 11:31, 19 February 2009 (UTC)

“The purpose of the Protect and Survive scheme is to provide members of the British public with instructions via print and broadcast media on how to protect themselves and survive a nuclear attack…”

Now is not that the biggest load of pro-nuclear BS this side of the cold war? For, as with Duck and Cover in the US, the purpose of the Protect and Survive was to con the public in believing nuclear war was possible and that they might survive a nuclear attack - by painting windows white and placing a few doors against the wall.

Have people here never read When The Wind Blows, or seen Atomic Cafe, or listened to Two Tribes? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.147.81.207 (talk) 22:24, 28 July 2014 (UTC)

"Threads"

on "Threads" you said that "Stay at home" and "Casualties" both are correct, but the third segement was NOT "Actions After Warnings" but rather "Make your Fallout Room NOW !" — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.66.235.175 (talk) 05:15, 17 August 2013 (UTC)

Frankie Goes To Hollywood

"The air attack warning sounds like this. This is the sound. When you hear the air attack warning, You and your family must take cover." Two Tribes

“If your grandmother or any other member of your family should die whilst in the shelter, Put them outside, but remember to tag them first for identification purposes.” Two Tribes (Annihilation)

Given the way Frankie Goes To Hollywood presents Protect and Survive, might not Two Tribes have its' own sub-section?

78.147.93.179 (talk) 12:23, 10 August 2014 (UTC)

Panorama

On 1 February 2016 the episode of Panorama featuring "Protect and Survive" was placed on Youtube. URL for the video is https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=milbW4RDIco as of 2 October 2016. Generally Youtube links are not desirable in articles, so I did not add it to "See also". But I was able to replace the long-in-place citation needed tag with a reference to the episode including its title and air date. Roches (talk) 00:00, 3 October 2016 (UTC)

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Accuracy and usefulness

I can't really find anything online about whether the instructions would be effective beyond comments that are generally cynical but don't point at specifics. The CND's Protest and Survive's main criticism is not the advice in the campaign but the idea that a war is survivable and argues that viewpoint makes a Nuclear War more likely.

There are obvious problems with Protect and Survive, such as the suggestion that you should use a portable gas stove in your fallout shelter.

Has there been any serious analysis of whether this campaign would have saved lives? This would be useful to add to the article if so.

2601:584:300:375:1047:90C5:33BC:DE2E (talk) 20:15, 29 July 2024 (UTC)