Talk:Poverty in Poland

Lede

I'm not sure that this: "affecting (depending on measure) about 20% of the society" really belongs in the lede. There's a lot of statistics given in the article and I'm not clear why this particular one is singled out. I'm also not sure where exactly is this number in the body. Is it the " at risk of poverty gap"? I'm not seeing this in the source, and those pages are about the changes in poverty during the transition years, not currently.

The "at risk of poverty gap" is also not an absolute measure of poverty but a relative poverty measure (60% of median income), which says more about income inequality than actual poverty. The % below World Bank absolute poverty line(s) and % below the national poverty line would make more sense.Volunteer Marek 20:31, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Fair enough, if you can think of a better lede, please write it. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:30, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

PovCal

By the way, this is straying a bit into OR territory, though I see this kind of thing on Wikipedia all the time, but this [1] is a useful resource - you can change the (absolute) poverty line and see how the poverty rate changes.Volunteer Marek 20:34, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

Confusing

The sentences " Absolute poverty - as defined by the World Bank, the percentage of population living on less than 4.30$ per day - in the period 1997-1999 affected 18.4% of Polish population. In the years 1998-2003 absolute poverty has risen by about 8%, reaching 18.1% in 2005, and dropping to 10.6% in 2008; an alternate measure suggests that in that period absolute poverty fell from 12.3% to 5.6%." seem to contradict themselves.

If it was 18.4% in 1997-1999, then it rose between 1998-2003 by 8%, how can it wind up lower? Are these sources using the same definition of poverty line? Volunteer Marek 20:47, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

&^@#. Probably not, they are using different ones, but likely haven't bothered to define it. As I said, the sources SUCK. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:40, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

Also, the numbers in that table don't seem to add up with World Bank's actual numbers. The table claims that at "World Bank four dollars-a-day" poverty line, were 18.4%. Actual numbers (see Povcal link above) are 8.4% for 1998 and 9.73% for 1999. I think they added a "1" which is not supposed to be there. Overall I wouldn't consider this a high-quality source.Volunteer Marek 21:03, 4 March 2013 (UTC)

I'm also having trouble finding this in the source: "In the years 1998-2003 absolute poverty has risen by about 8%, reaching 18.1% in 2005, and dropping to 10.6% in 2008; an alternate measure suggests that in that period absolute poverty fell from 12.3% to 5.6%". I'm assuming that the Brzezinski article linked to is a summary of a more general article perhaps? Volunteer Marek 03:19, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I borked the link to Brzezinski; fixed now - http://www.wne.uw.edu.pl/inf/wyd/WP/WNE_WP59.pdf . --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:40, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

re:[2], p.31 of the source states 18.4%. Are you saying there's a typo in the source? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 05:13, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Yes. See above. They say it's the world bank data and are pretty specific about which stat it is. For that particular year the actual stat is 8.4 not 18.4. 18.4 just doesn't make sense for that time period and for that poverty threshold and for this country either - which is why it jumped out at me. So I'm 99.9% sure they just accidentally added a "1" in there. I guess this is one of those (verifiability not truth) vs. (verifiability and truth) situations where I'm very sure the source is wrong and another source directly contradicts it in a way which even suggests WHY it's wrong.Volunteer Marek 02:44, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

And like I said above (and I think you agreed), it's sort of a sketchy source anyway.Volunteer Marek 02:45, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Ah, now I understand and agree. I just wasn't clear on what was your reason for doubting the number, now I see and agree with you. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:18, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

State Agricultural Farms

Certain former State Agricultural Farms are islands of poverty. There is a documentary Arizona about Zagórki, Pomeranian Voivodeship. Xx236 (talk) 11:04, 5 March 2013 (UTC)

I think I found a good source for that, will add at least a ref sentence shortly. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 07:29, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Such information should be included into the text.Xx236 (talk) 09:48, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

Go ahead, I added the source I found to the bottom of external links. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 09:50, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

If you teach me to write English :-).Xx236 (talk) 10:28, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

@Xx236: I think your English is sufficient. But I can copyedit your draft here, or even translate it from Polish (through the latter may take longer). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 11:08, 3 June 2014 (UTC)

gdp per head in inter war period

Per capita GNP in 1929 was among the lowest in Europe, beneath that of the neighboring Baltic states - this needs a source and some context. Here's a graph I once made:

It's for 1937, not 1929, but that's because data is much better for 1937. Also 1929 is pre-Great Depression and standard historical narratives note that Poland was hit particularly hard by the GD (out of all the countries affected worldwide, the income drop was the largest in Poland and the depression lasted the longest, save one other country (can't remember of the top of my head), the usual explanation being the over adherence to the gold standard by Polish authorities). So if anything, relative to rest of Europe Poland's income was higher in 1929 then what the graph shows in 1937.

In particular, Poland had a GDP that was comparable to that of Hungary (no surprise there) and Austria (people forget that at the time Austria was a "developing country"), a bit below but not too much to Italy and Ireland. Poland's GDP per person was higher than Greece's, Spain's and Portugal's (Spain's not in the graph but they were a bit above Portugal).

It probably was lower than Estonia and Latvia but these were actually quite rich before they got taken over by the USSR, which is another thing people forget today - basically they were comparable to 'developed' Sweden and Germany.

There are other estimates out there, but like I said, need a source.Volunteer Marek 17:27, 6 March 2013 (UTC)

Communist era

I'd like to appeal to User:Biruitorul to please trim the fat from your new section by at least 30%. It is a complete retelling of a single chapter in a copyrighted book without further confirmation of its neutrality by different authors and other sources of info. Aside from the proprietary issues which are a serious matter around here, the "Communist era" is also disproportionately long right now. Please don't take it personally. I'm only concerned with the actual article and nothing else. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 17:04, 7 March 2013 (UTC)

Around 1,5 million Poles work in slave like conditions today

[3] This should be included in the article, along with information about crippling unemployment since 1992 which never went down from high levels. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 13:00, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

• The quoted article from Wyborcza is aggressive and propagandist from the start: "A slave for hire", says its title. But if you watch the video clip from the German newsmedia included, you will see that the problems with temp agencies extends well beyond Poland. The tone of the article is unencyclopedic and the whole thing looks like a carrier for ads. — Temp agencies need to be better regulated for sure and closely monitored in Poland, but the issue is global, as far as I know. Poeticbent talk 15:04, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Wyborcza is reliable source.I personally know many people exploited this way. And it's not as similar as in Germany, because prices in Germany are lower while wages higher.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 15:54, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Prices in Poland are about 56% of German prices [4]. Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

(Generally richer countries have higher prices, see Balassa-Samuelson Effect).Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:06, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Easily disproven, prices for everyday products like food or cleaning articles in Germany are lower than in Poland (btw neither of you live in Poland as far as I remember right?)

[5] [6] [7] --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:15, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Actual data and statistics are more reliable than goofy sensationalist scare stories in tabloids. I don't know how my place of residence influences the actually observed level of prices in Poland or Germany. I don't have that much purchasing power. The prices that exist are independent of where I live, right?Volunteer Marek (talk) 16:44, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Biznes.pl and Forsal.pl are actually business portals focusing on economy and finances. Next time please read the source before making wrong accusations. Your source only gives general prices, doesn't say for example what prices of foodstuffs are, it matters little to people in Poland(vast majority of which are extremely poor) if yachts in Poland are cheaper for the 10% who are well off.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:55, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

They may be business portals but those are sensationalist scare stories. The source I give - which does have general prices - uses the purchases of a typical person to construct the price index. So "yachts" are probably not in there. Foodstuffs, rent, and other goods purchased by regular people are. Picking, say "apple juice", and saying that prices are higher in Poland because the price of that one good happens to be higher when a reporter happened to look at it, is silly. And misleading. The proposition that prices are higher in Poland than in Germany just has no support in serious sources and data.

Of course real wages in Poland *are* lower. But anyway, how does this relate to poverty? We're straying off into original research here.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:03, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

"They may be business portals but those are sensationalist scare stories."Nope, they are real stories, this is your private POV. And we don't base Wikipedia on private POV. Also did you just confirme that you didn't even bother checking these links before replying?"Foodstuffs, rent, and other goods purchases by regular people are" and in cases of foodstuffs are higher in Poland.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 17:05, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Again, actual data trump these anecdotal scare stories. It's not my private POV but based on sources, such as OECD which I provided above. And what I said is that the price index used to compare prices in Poland and Germany is based on "Foodstuffs, rent and other goods purchased by regular people". I don't know about foodstuffs in particular or as a general category.

Look. I'm sure there are some goods in Poland which happen to cost more than in Germany. And you could cherry-pick these goods (maybe... cherries?), like the stories do, to try and mislead people into thinking that prices in general are higher in Poland. But that's just not true. What matters is the *average* price of a basket of goods purchased by a typical household. And this basked includes, foodstuffs, rent, gas and other goods purchased by regular people. Even if some foodstuffs is more expansive, other foodstuffs and other goods are cheaper, offsetting that idiosyncratic difference. BTW, I'm pretty sure yachts costs the same in Poland and Germany (or whatever price differences exist, it's due to different taxes).Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:25, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

• How do you think I know that the problems with temp agencies are in fact global? Poeticbent talk 16:34, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Since the article is about Polish poverty, let's focus on poverty in Poland. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 16:35, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

– Why did you bring our residenence here User:MyMoloboaccount? To lecture me? ... I graciously request that you stop beating around the bush. Thanks, Poeticbent talk 20:00, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Back on topic, here's the trend in poverty in Poland, although unfortunately goes up to 2003 [8]. I'll try to find more up to date info.Volunteer Marek (talk) 17:25, 3 May 2014 (UTC)

Few recent articles on ineqeuality

• Bogaci i biedni bliżej siebie. Maleją rozwarstwienia w dochodach Polaków
• Nierówności w Polsce nie maleją! (I have a hard copy of this if you cannot read it let me know and I'll try to scan it)

Art 2 is a clear polemic with 1. In either case, the cite some reliable stats (GUS, Eurostat) that we probably will want to report. Thoughts? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:03, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Split inequality section into inequality in Poland

Inequality is not the same as poverty. I'd like to split the current section into a dedicated article. Thoughts? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 06:13, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

I very much agree that this is a good idea.Volunteer Marek (talk) 18:34, 4 May 2014 (UTC)

Article needs to be re-written

It is mostly manipulation of data and based on cherry picked sources. As a person living in Poland, I can actually ensure anyone that poverty in Poland is absolutely crippling, the article doesn't reflect this fact(you can see starving and elderly people trying to find food in garbage bins-it's a normal sight).It's really disturbing how this article tries to conceal the sad state of Poland. --MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:30, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Nonsense. Your own personal views are not a reliable source.

If you want me to try and update the graphs for the past few years, that's fine. I can look into it. But I am not going to put in the work just to have you come in and edit war to remove it or put in some highly skewed original research caption on it.Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:43, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

If you want to do actual work here then we can start by figuring out at what level and what definition of poverty, the 7.4% number refers to. How is "minimum egzystencji" defined? Volunteer Marek (talk) 23:46, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

I have already inserted sourced information. Please stop removing it.Your graphs are highly biased and original research, they have no place in the article.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 23:49, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

The graphs are neither biased nor are they original research. They simply illustrate data from reliable sources. They just don't happen to support your POV and your WP:IDONTLIKEIT. Your sourced information is cherry picked and out of context. Like I said, if you want to seriously work on updating the numbers for the last couple of years, that's fine. But that's not what you have been doing so far.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:09, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

" Your sourced information is cherry picked and out of context. " My sourced information directly involves issue of poverty in Poland. If you believe that Gazeta Wyborcza is an unreliable source, please go to RSN. Since you are dissatisfied with this source, I can of course add many more sources about the levels of poverty in Poland, and will do so.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:13, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

First, just not that long ago you were claiming that Gazeta Wyborcza is not a reliable source - when they published something you didn't agree with. Now you're claiming the opposite. Make up your mind.

And like I said, the problem is not with the source, it's with presenting information out of context. That 7.6%. What poverty threshold is that? Is it based on an absolute level or relative to some median or average? Is a headcount or a poverty gap? Is it based on household surveys, consumption data, tax records, welfare assistance records or some other method? What does "7.6" mean? Is that high compared to other countries? Is it high compared to other years? Your only interest here appears to be to put into the article "Poverty in Poland is very high and increasing". Now it might be true that it has increased (since economic growth has slowed in the past few years) in the past year or two. But you can't take just one data point that happens to support your own POV and only use that - that's the essence of POV pushing.

Again, if you want to approach the issue seriously then let's do some work and find out exactly what that number is and use sources which put it into context.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:21, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Personal experiences should not color our editing. I share a concern with VM over the quality of that 7.6% number. Well, source states 7.4% not 7.6% ([9]). It reports GUS, so probably reliable, but we should track the original GUS report. Overall, however, I think the source is fine to report that absolute poverty affects 7.4%. If you look at the "modern era" section, you'll note that relatively low compared to 1990s. Anyway, visiting GUS page made it easy (surprise) to find the original source: [10] (pdf). Sorry I don't have time to analyze it directly; but we should use it as a source rather than Wyborcza (for statistics); we can use Wyborcza for opinions (attributed). --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 08:28, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Had time to look into the source - GUS raport "Ubóstwo ekonomiczne w Polsce w 2013 r. ". Figure 7.4% comes from page 12 of the pdf file and represents 2013 "granica ubóstwa skrajnego (minimum egzystencji)" which I think can be translated as "border of absolute poverty (living wage)". The report also provides numbers for "relatywna granica ubóstwa" ("relative poverty", not discussed in the current article and this could be a good addition) and "ustawowa granica ubóstwa" ("official poverty line"). The latter is discussed in the article, and has sharply risen according to the report, from 6.6% in 2011 to 12.8% in 2013. I thought this could be explained by changed definition, annd indeed the report, p.3, confirms that: "Tak znaczny wzrost ubóstwa ustawowego wynika jednak głównie ze zmiany w październiku 2012 r. wartości progów interwencji socjalnej, a nie ze zmiany sytuacji bytowej gospodarstw domowych". For the record, similar GUS reports are available since 2009 [11] and we should be able to plot graphs for at least last few years based on those. Can anyone find if GUS had similar estimates/stats for prior years? The best I can find is the graph in the 2009 report [12] going back to 2000, which suggests that poverty in Poland has been relatively stable since 2000. perhaps declining slightly after entering the EU but now mostly back to where it was. So, as far as I can tell, it's neither good or bad (there are no more poor people in Poland now than 15 years ago, through the failure to reduce that number is a failure of all subsequent governments, so perhaps we can put any partisanship aside - nobody did particularly good or bad here, or in other words, everyone - SLD, PIS and PO - shafted the poor in the usual, similar way).--_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 13:43, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Yes, the grey graph on the right below is based on ubostwo_ekonomiczne_w_polsce_w_2013_r (I think it's the same report). "Ustawowa granica" is actually the threshold at which a person or household begins qualifying for certain kinds of welfare assistance - and yes, the reason it goes up because the necessary qualifications were relaxed. "Relatywna granica" is really a measure of inequality not poverty (not just in Poland but generally) and I believe it is defined relative to median income. That one belongs in that article Inequality in Poland that needs to be created.

As I explain below there really isn't any meaningful difference between the GUS series and the international comparisons of poverty rates based on PovCal data. There is some difference due to use of different thresholds and adjustment for international price differentials but the trends are essentially the same (the level differences are pretty small, for the most part, as well).Volunteer Marek (talk) 14:08, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

---

I think the ″sad state of Poland″ (MyMoloboaccount) is really due to all these centuries of oppression and Germanization by Prussia and Germany, that culminated in an attempt of genocide. Germany also did not pay enough reparations to PRL. Or, at least that's what the 'national romanticist' propaganda tells us. Patriot Donbassa (talk) 09:29, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Graphs

The first graph on the right is an international comparison of poverty levels based on PovCal data adjusted for differences in purchasing power across countries.

The second graph on the right is the poverty right in Poland according to the "minimum existence" threshold as calculated by the main Polish statistical agency, GUS (I've included the 7.3% number from the GW source above, although it is not in the latest publication available online)

There is some differences in the numbers of course because the poverty threshold used is different, because one adjusts for price differences across countries while the other adjusts for differences in prices across time and because the data is collected and compiled differently (although the PovCal numbers are actually based on GUS numbers). However although you can't see it in the upper graph, because the level of poverty in countries like Romania was so high in 2000 that it changes the scale, the yellow line representing Poland in the upper graph actually has a very similar shape to the line portrayed in the graph below. The trend is essentially the same. The peak is the same, the changes, except for 2010-2011 have the same direction.

It makes sense for the article to have both graphs in the article since they illustrate two different aspects of the topic.Volunteer Marek (talk) 02:38, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

VM: the following question may be worth replying to on merit, disregarding any concerns about the source. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 23:55, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

The source is Mark Harrison "GDPs of the USSR and Eastern Europe: Towards an Interwar Comparison", table 2 and table 5. Estlandia is not discussed in that paper.Volunteer Marek (talk) 00:04, 2 June 2014 (UTC)

---

I have a question concerning File:GDP per head Europe 1937.png. It shows Austria as poorer than Finland and even a bit poorer than Ireland. Can it really be true? The thing is, I found nothing re supposed Austrian economic miracle post WW2 that should've taken place, had the 1938 figures been so low. Also, consider that Estonia was only a bit poorer than Finland in the late 1930s, I'd be really surprised if Austria and Estonia had been on par in 1930s. The graph itself is of course useful, but I'm confused.Patriot Donbassa (talk) 09:13, 1 June 2014 (UTC)

Redundant part

"Those living in poverty tended to have very low incomes, substandard housing". People living in poverty tend to have low income? No kidding... I propose top re-write. Long live the US of A (strongest on the planet), --Mondschein English (talk) 01:02, 10 September 2014 (UTC)

The Romanian Romani people

The most visible poor people in Poland are Romani people in Romania, there are hundreds of sources. They construct their tiny slums.Xx234 (talk) 08:03, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

[13]Xx234 (talk) 08:23, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The Romani people in Poland have also their problems.Xx234 (talk) 08:42, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

The homeless

The homeless should be mentioned. to have substandard housing is much better than to have none or to have a place in a shelter.Xx234 (talk) 08:07, 20 November 2014 (UTC)

Recent edits

These edits are essentially the same as these edits which were previously rejected by CONSENSUS.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:00, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

This is new data that wasn't discussed and wasn't part of the discussion. If you want a consensus on erasing actual official data from the government showing poverty figures, feel free to try to do so here, but I am feeling this will go against Wiki policies and doesn't seem credible.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:08, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

"New data" eh? Can you link to the report? Regardless, the usage of sensationalist newspaper stories as opposed to academic publications or concrete data reports was discussed above and still discussed. (and let me note the irony of you using a source which you once adamantly claimed was non-reliable when it printed something you didn't like). Likewise, the fact that the increase in poverty statistics has gone up "since 2008" is still the same - because the threshold for what counts as "poverty" was relaxed. Read that discussion again.Volunteer Marek (talk) 20:16, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

Please don't pretend that this repeat of the same discussion. This is new data that was already linked in main article which you have removed.Gazeta Wyborcza is a reliable news source-if you claim otherwise please ask on RSN.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 20:21, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

This IS a repeat of the same discussion because exactly the same issues are pertinent. Your use of sensationalist newspaper stories rather serious sources. What exactly is the 'poverty' being measured here? Where are the actual numbers? Where is the GUS report? This is all discussed above; you failed to address it then, and you're failing it to address it now.Volunteer Marek (talk) 21:44, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

While I don't see the need to change the lead, I think the new refs ([14], [15], [16]) seem reliable enough to add a new sentence to the end of the Poverty_in_Poland#Modern_era about a recent increase by a percentage point. But before that, what is "skrajne ubóstwo"? Pl wiki doesn't have an article/redirect. Can anyone find the GUS report which is the source of those media pieces? --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| reply here} 00:06, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

It's not clear, that's why it would be good to have the actual GUS report. Poverty in Poland is measured in two ways (well, more than that but I'm putting aside measures of "relative poverty"). One is based on "number of people who qualify for public assistance". Because the legal limits of qualification change sometimes, the number fluctuatates even if people's income doesn't change. This is part of the reason for why there was an increase in "poverty" after 2008 or so - the threshold for qualifying for public assistance was lowered, so more people signed up so it looked like poverty went up. Having said that, I do want to emphasize that most likely (?) this isn't all of the story. The second way of measuring poverty is based on some absolute standard. This kind of data is a lot harder to collect (versus just recording # of people who are signing up for public assistance) so reliable numbers really come out only once every five years or so. Of course this doesn't stop government agencies from coming up with more or less reliable estimates. It's not clear what the GW source is talking about - that's part of the reason why it's sort of dumb to use sensationalist newspaper sources for this - so again, let's see the GUS report.

Last time we had this conversation - almost a year ago - reading the actual GUS report clarified these points, but that was the 2013 report. I've been unable to find the 2014 report so far.Volunteer Marek (talk) 03:55, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

The Polish minimal wage compared to other countries

Since many decades the Poles have been called "the Mexicans of Europe" and Poland was described as "the European Mexico". Can anyone tell me, how do our Polish minimal and average wages compare to minimal and average wages in other countries? Especially Greece which currently is a bankrupt. I'm really interested in than. There I', giving you some data

• Currently the minimal wage in Poland PER MONTH is 1300 zlotys net = 340 dollars = 310 euro. (that is a net value of 85 dollars per week)
• The average salary in Poland PER MONTH is currently around 1800 zlotys net = 470 dollars = 428 euro. (that is a net value of 117 dollars per week).

What are the salaries in your countries, after converting to the American dollar, or the standard currency of euro? 192.162.150.105 (talk) 13:49, 7 July 2015 (UTC)

Keep in mind, that the prices in Poland are higher than in the western countries, so the Polish people earn much less than others, while they have higher prices of many products at the same time. Also, please note that a lot of Polish people work on the so-called "junk-contracts", in this case, earning much less than the Polish minimal wage. My brother was working on such a contract, he worked 10 hours per day, 6 days a week, and he earned around 750 złotys per month (197 dollars per month = 178 euro per month). His monthly salary was equal to the price of two pairs of Nike shoes, per month of course. This is how lots of Polish people live nowadays, and amazingly, they are able to make it despite living on the edge. 192.162.150.105 (talk) 09:34, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

Spot on anon contributor. Many people don't realize how terrible the poverty and unemployment in Poland is.--MyMoloboaccount (talk) 00:24, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

WP:NOR, WP:NOTAFORUM (and also WP:JUSTPLAINWRONG). Volunteer Marek  01:54, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

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