Talk:Pope Leo X/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Archive 4

Content Dispute with Conduct Issues

The sexuality of Leo X is a content issue, but is being complicated by conduct issues, in particular personal attacks. The allegation of lying is a personal attack, and a very severe one, which can result in being blocked. I suggest that editors who disagree as to whether Leo X was homosexual, which appears to be a view that is supported by many scholars, should take their issue to the dispute resolution noticeboard, where a volunteer moderator will help the editors work out their differences. I will point out that if the personal attacks continue, dispute resolution will fail. Robert McClenon (talk) 18:18, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi! The article does not cite any scholar who affirms that Leo X was homosexual. See scholar. Also, a thread has already been opened in Wikipedia:Administrators' noticeboard/Incidents. El Huinca (talk) 18:35, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

It is true that the view of Leo's homosexuality is supported by many scholars. The opposite view is only supported by a 19th-century biographer : William Roscoe dismissing this as Protestant polemic, failing to take into account two of the leading papal historians of the time who shared a belief that Leo engaged in "unnatural vice". Nobody except El Huinca is denying that these leading papal historians did so, I believe. Frimoussou (talk) 19:02, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

1) I did not introduce anything about Roscoe. The Roscoe thing was already there before I edited the article, and it is still there because you did not delete it.

2) Also, the article does not cite any scholar (someone who actually went to college and studied how to do history) who claims Leo X was homosexual.

3) Please go read Guicciardini and Giovio. If you don't know Italian or Latin, use Google Translate: it supports both languages. The "scholars" claim they both accept his homosexuality, but the actual texts say the opposite. Again: please read the original text. El Huinca (talk) 19:17, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

If it's not you that introduce Roscoe, you didn't introduced anyone claiming that Guicciardini and Giovo made actually the opposite statement everyone stated they did, apparently even Roscoe. The "original texts" are the manuscripts of Guicciardini and Giovio. I don't have to read what you present as the "original text", but you have to produce references claiming that these texts have previously been altered if it the truth. These texts are not new and your claim is very recent... Frimoussou (talk) 20:17, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

1) Roscoe only speaks about Pierre Bayle, not about Guicciardini nor Jovius.

2) The first translation of Guicciardini was added here and the first translation of Giovo was added here.

3) When the first Guicciardini translation (that I claim to be wrong) was added, the source was Gustavo Adolfo Cesareo's book Pasquino e Pasquinate nella Roma di Leone X. The book is in Italian, and the quotation is in English. Who did the translation? A wikipedian! So applying to your logic the Guicciardini citation should be considered original research and should be deleted.

4) But today the alleged source of the translation is not Cesareo anymore. Now the quote has two citations: Joeph Mc Cabe and the original book by Guicciardini, Storia d'Italia.

5) Mc Cabe is not a reliable source because he was a militant anti catholic who wrote mainly out of hate. Changing a few words to reverse the meaning of a quotation is something that lies on the mild side of his actions.

6) But let's put an end to this discussion. The History of Italy is available online in English in Archive.org. This 18th century translation in page 114 of the pdf says: "the reputation of a chaste person and of unblameable manners". Compare with my own translation: "he was believed to be chaste and his customs to be full of intergity".

7) Therefore McCabe's translation unacceptable.

8) And also any other translation coming from McCabe becomes instantly unreliable.

9) At the very least the article should reflect the true opinion of Guicciardini, which is, that Leo was "chaste". No mention of anything else.

10) So Roscoe is not contradicting Guicciardini: he is affirming him.

11) Same goes for Jovius but I can't find an English translation in the open internet.

12) But do you know what? It does not matter! This is Wikipedia Policy:

"Citations to non-English sources are allowed. (...) Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations by Wikipedians, but translations by Wikipedians are preferred over machine translations."

13) So translations by wikipedians are ok when there are no other reliable translations available.

14) Since McCabe's translations are not reliable, then I am not breaking any rule if I translate it myself.

El Huinca (talk) 22:31, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

"Mc Cabe is not a reliable source because he was a militant anti catholic who wrote mainly out of hate. Changing a few words to reverse the meaning of a quotation is something that lies on the mild side of his actions." ??? Well, maybe it's not him the lyer but militant catholics with their own translations ? I should add that it's very likely that a "18th century translater" censure a few words too, because the homosexuality of a pope was not a very "proper" subject at that time... (remember the heterosexual forgery of Michelangelo,'s poetry, discovered at the end of the 19th century...) What about the original manuscripts ? All of this is far more complicated. I can't still see here anything but original research. If it is really a "forgery" and that your 18th century's translation was actually and entirely the really good one, it will be easy to find a scholarly reference reestablishing the truth based on what you call the "original text". Frimoussou (talk) 22:40, 1 January 2015 (UTC)

Hi, please explain your [ https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Pope_Leo_X&diff=640637708&oldid=640637188 lastest censorship]. To me it looks like plain vandalism. What is the exact problem with it? El Huinca (talk) 11:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Bayle wrote in 1697 : later or earlier what, it's not important. Paul Strathern is not a « modern novelist » he is « a British writer and academic. Besides five novels, he has also written books on science, philosophy, history, literature, medicine and economics. » Carlo Falconi was not an « ex-priest » he was « an Italian journalist and writer about Roman Catholicism » who happened to have briefly been a priest. Frimoussou (talk) 11:16, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I suggest you to stop personal attacks. Frimoussou (talk) 11:42, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

For the record: Pierre Bayle in his commetary on Leo X (An historical and Critical Dictionary, volume 2 page 391) he speaks about Guicciardini and Jovius, and says that they were against the claims of either homosexuality or any other break of priestly vows. El Huinca (talk) 12:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Here is the record : "Not to conceal any thing, I am obliged to acquaint my reader that Paul Jovius does not place this ulcer in the place where Varillas does, but in the fundament, which would suppose a disgraceful cause : and with the same sincerity I add, that this pope ascended the throne with a great reputation of chastity, if we believe Guicciardini, and was reckoned very continent from his youth, if we credit Paul Jovius. Whence we must conclude that the papal dignity was that which ruined Leo the Tenth's good morals : he grew vicious, when he should have grown virtuous ; and lastly, I observe, that the sense in which I allege Varilla's words, and which Seckendorf gives them, is gathered only from consequences, and such as do not necessarily follow from them."

Here is a part of the article : "these were Leo's governor Francesco Guicciardini, who wrote "At the beginning of his pontificate most people deemed him very chaste; however, he was afterwards discovered to be exceedingly devoted – and every day with less and less shame – to that kind of pleasure that for honour's sake may not be named"

Personally, I don't see any contradiction.

Frimoussou (talk) 13:42, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Not a contradiction, only that McCabe added (invented) the second half: however, he was afterwards discovered to be exceedingly devoted – and every day with less and less shame – to that kind of pleasure that for honour's sake may not be named

Also as you see, Bayle said that Giovo did not believe Pope Medici was wounded in the combat of Venus: I am obliged to acquaint my reader that Paul Jovius does not place this ulcer in the place where Varillas does. El Huinca (talk) 14:11, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Giovio place the ulcer in the fundament (the ass isn't it ?) and it would be a proof the he did not believe Pope Medici was wounded in the combat of Venus ? It sounds weird to me... If the sentence "however, he was afterwards discovered to be exceedingly devoted – and every day with less and less shame – to that kind of pleasure that for honour's sake may not be named" is really an invention of McCabe, then you should cite a reference proving it's the case : a 18th century's document is absolutely not beyond doubt concerning homosexuality. At least we could cite the two versions until we know which one is the true version. Frimoussou (talk) 14:38, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I'd like to add my comments:

• Strathern did not conclude that Leo X was an active homosexual!! Quite opposite!!! I've got Polish translation of his book and in the only passage that refers to the Leo's sexuality he claimed that although there were several laviscious parties at his court, he was not engaged personally in sexual activity.
• What actually claimed Cesare Falconi is not clear to me and, I suppose, that the author that had added this reference (BTW, without number of the page) also did not have this book in his hand. Actually, the whole passage about the homosexuality is based on what had been written in the entry about Leo X in Who is who in gay end lesbian history?. Its author is a LGBT activist Giovanni dall'Orto. The accuracy of this entry depends on his reliability. However, even dall'Orto's citations from Falconi do not indicate that Falconi came to definitive conclusion about Leo's homosexuality, even if he clearly considered the accusation of sodomy as based on solid grounds. And the book of Cesareo is a source only for the content of some pasquinades, but not for the factual accuracy of these pasquinades
• On the other hand, it is not true that citation from Guicciardini is an invention of McCabe. Guicciardini in one place praised Leo for his chastity, on the other, made an opposite statement. This self-contradiction led some historians (Gregorovius, von Pastor) to dismiss his accusation. Ludwig von Pastor examined the question of morality of Leo X and concluded that there is no reason to doubt seriously about his chastity. His arguments were following:
  • most of the contemporary reports praised Leo for his chastity; Leo's friend, Matteo Herculano, claimed expressis verbis, that he lived in chastity also as Pope,
  • there is no evidence of immorality of Leo X in the rich collection of diplomatic and espionage reports of the usually well informed emmissaries of Italian courts,
  • Guicciardini was not a resident of the papal court and in the different places made two different opinions about morality of Leo. Moreover, he spoke about his alleged dissolution only in the chapter about Clement VII. Indeed, in the sede vacante after the death of Leo X, the pasquinages were particularly offensive towards the dead Pope and Cardinals, and they were widely distributed also outside Rome (even in Germany). One may suppose that Guicciardini's claims might have been based on the these pasquinades, and not necessarily on the reliable reports
• In conclusion, I can say that it is not true, that view of Leo's homosexuality is supported by many scholars. Besides, there are also notable authors, that, after having examined the same sources, came to the opposite conclusions (e.g. Gregorovius, von Pastor). The current content of the subsection "Sexuality" misrepresents what the sources actually say and is one-sided, ommiting the existing opposite opinions about the morality of Leo X CarlosPn (talk) 22:16, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for these very interesting comments. They could form the basis of a more balanced paragraph about Leo's homosexuality. It could be useful to know what Strathern and Falconi exactly claimed. It seems everybody agree that Leo X was chaste before he became the pope, but that Guicciardini really claimed it was not the case anymore after his election. A claim refuted by Matteo Herculano (even if he was a friend of the pope) and by Gregorovius and von Pastor, who pointed what they considered the contradictions of Giucciardini's testimony. Frimoussou (talk) 22:47, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

And what about Paolo Giovio ? Have you any comment to make about what he stated ? He is one of the "two leading papal historians" concerned by the controversy. Did his claims differ from Giucciardini's ? And was he a resident of the papal court who could be considered as more reliably documented than Giucciardini ?Frimoussou (talk) 22:50, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I see you have already discussed that issue with Contaldo80 in 2009 : "Homosexual inclinations of Leo are rather undeniable. His only contemporary biographer Paolo Giovio mentions that he "flirted" with some of his chamberlains, and the context of this account can hardly be interpretated otherwise (although he seems to suggest that it was nothing more than "flirtation" and looks at this only as a trifle, not serious vice). The question is only: "active or not?". I'm afraid that, as in many similar cases, it is rather unlikely to achieve a final conclusion. CarlosPn (talk) 14:15, 13 May 2009 (CET)" It seems therefore that Paolo Giovio admitted Leo had homosexual inclinations, but perhaps platonic. Frimoussou (talk) 23:15, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm not an expert of Latin and the fragment in question is obscure. I understood it in the way I'd written it to Contaldo in 2009 but today I'm not sure of it. Giovio certainly speeks of "slenderous accusations" but it is not clear to me whether these flirtations are mentioned as facts or part of these "slenderous accusations". Certainly he did not confirm explicitly any homosexual activity. However, his declaration that the princes' "secrets of the night" shoould not be examined by historian makes the matter more complicated and prompted some authors such as McCabe to conclude that Giovio had actually belived the accusations to be true but hesitated to declare this openly. But what Giovio had actually in his mind, we may only speculate CarlosPn (talk) 23:33, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

So the paragraph about Leo X's sexuality is actually rather accurate. There is perhaps mainly two sentences to balance : "A academic writer and a modern biographer of Leo [9][10] have concluded that he was homosexual" (his homosexuality, active of platonic, is open to debate or something like that) and "failing to take into account two of the leading papal historians of the time who shared a belief that Leo engaged in "unnatural vice" (failing to take into account two of the leading papal historians of the time who seems to share a belief that Leo engaged in "unnatural vice, according to...); and perhaps add a sentence about the critics on Giuccardini. Frimoussou (talk) 00:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I disagree about the relative accuracy of current text. It is difficult to decide about sexual orientation of Leo X basing on such a scarce and obscure evidence, and without any "personal" evidence (coming from Leo himself). Flirtations with chamberlains, even if true, do not neccessarily mean that he was homosexual - it may be perhaps a matter of specific humours. The academic discussion concern morality of Leo, not his sexual orientation, and can be described generally as inconclusive CarlosPn (talk) 15:49, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

"The academic discussion concern morality of Leo, not his sexual orientation"? Really ? I didn't understand that... So, we have to suppress and not balance (as I suggested) the paragraph about his sexuality, if morality and sexual orientation are totally different things... Frimoussou (talk) 16:33, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I'm of the opinion of not hiding anything. What I undersand from CarlosPn, is the academic discussion in the renaissance was about what they cared: if the pope was true to his vows or not (morality, what he does not what he is). Because back then nobody cared about the sexual orientation (pulsions), but they cared about engagement in vice, be it natural (fornication and adultery) or unnatural (sodomy and onanism). These modern authors say "since Jovius and Guicciardini accuse him of engaging in unnatural vice, then he was homosexual". My personal judgement is that the logic is faulty (why not bisexual?). But I did not rise that point because a wikipedian can not judge the logic of a source. What I pointed out is a problem with the premise: I still consider that the quotation of Guicciardini is wrong, because a quotation is supposed to be a literal copy of what the author said, with no changes. The exact text can not be found in Guicciardini's original text.

Anyone with internet connection has free and immediate access to the following editions:

Italian (original language):

• A XIX century edition, Florence 1836, page 418.
• Another XIX century edition, Paris 1837.
• A XX century edition, Florence 1929, page 49.
• The italian wikisource version.

German:

• Darmstad, 1849: "Er wurde fur keusch gehalten und fur einen Mann von vollkommenen Sitte." Page 66.

French:

• London 1738: "la réputation qu'il avoit lui-même d'être liberál, poli, & de moeurs irreprochables", page 317.

Spanish:

• Spanish Manuscript: "estimado por casto y de perfectas costumbres", page 958. Copied by hand in the period 1691-1697.

English:

• London edition of 1753: "the reputation of a chaste person and of unblameable manners", page 114.

In the source reliability noticeboard I asked for feedback regarding this issue. They have very good comments that I paste here:

I've only looked at the English translation (page 114 btw, not 144) and didn't find anything resembling the second half. I tried searching the book for various phrases that might have been used but couldn't find anything. I have seen several quotations probably originating from McCabe though, such as the "Who's Who in Gay and Lesbian History: From Antiquity to the Mid-Twentieth Century"[1]. They also claim to quote Guicciardini, but doesn't make it clear what edition was used. Based on what I've seen I'd say that the book should be regarded as unreliable, but given how many other sources there are that uses the quote it should probably be mentioned in the article somewhere. Bjelleklang - talk 23:00, 2 January 2015 (UTC)

Yeah, this is a strange one. On the one hand, multiple sources don't include that sentence, which points toward the unreliability of the sole dissenting source. But on the other hand, Joseph McCabe appears to be widely cited and quoted, and I find no sources commenting on his faulty quotations, so I'm not sure we could consider him unreliable. I am unable to find any sources speaking to this discrepancy, either, so any explanation we give would be WP:SYNTH. It may be that we state by source: multiple sources say X, and Joseph McCabe says X+Y. I could also see an argument for WP:DUE, where were simply go with the words favored by the most translations, which doesn't include the second sentence. Of course, whether or not Joseph McCabe is reliable is irrelevant at that point. Just my $0.02. Woodroar (talk) 07:01, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

At this point I find it really hard to believe that a heterosexual conspiracy extended from 1691 to 1929 with the purpose of modifying all editions of Guicciardini until McCabe came to save the day. If Wikipedia quotes an author, it must provide a source from that very author. Not from another one.

As for Jovius, you don't speak Latin and I can't expect you to believe my translation. So, first, I have posted a question in the Latin Wikipedia, and this is what somebody replied:

I suggest this: "And scandal was not absent, because he was seen to be quite improperly devoted to some of his personal attendants, who were from the noblest families of all Italy, and to joke with them freely and rather amorously. But in that extremely slanderous court did even the best and holiest of princes escape the stings [i.e. verbal attacks] of the spiteful?"

Which is not much different from what I suggested:

The Pope was not spared from false accusations, according to which he held dishonest love for some of his chamberlains (who came from the most noble families of Italy) and with whom he allegedly played tenderly and freely. But who, even and excellent and holy prince, can avoid the stings of the envious in such a court full of gossip?

I am now going to give the latin wiki user a link to this discussion so that he can provide more feedback.

El Huinca (talk) 18:00, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Addenda: see how the quotation we have now in the article misses something: the nobility of the attendants. But the quotation did not use a "(...)" to denote that it was skipping something. El Huinca (talk) 18:04, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

You "find it very hard to believe that a heterosexual conspiracy extended from 1691 to 1929" ? We have an example with the censure of Michelangelo's poetry : it was exactly what we are entitled to call a "heterosexual conspiracy" of lyers ; and it's only one example of heterosexual censure, as you should know, believe me... Why it wouldn't be the case with this pope ? The editions you cited could very well have been translations of translations... CarlosPn seems to agree that McCabe didn't invented the second part of Giucciardini's allegations and I don't know anyone but you that contest that fact. I don't know who is right. Perhaps CarlosPn could precise how we can establish that it's not an invention ? And if the text has been censured, which is the scholar(s) and/or the editors who published the good version ? If not, sure McCabe, who affirmed to have "literally" translated the original text, would effectively be dubious...Frimoussou (talk) 18:41, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Here is the fragment of Guicciardini (pp. 432-433). ElHuinca is simply talking about another fragment. The discrepancies between these two fragments prompted Ludwig von Pastor to dismiss the second one as unreliable CarlosPn (talk) 19:21, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Aoh, thank you very much. It was not so complicated to admit that McCabe didn't lie on his translation of these fragments finally... Frimoussou (talk) 20:05, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

If that translation of Jovius is the accurate : "And scandal was not absent, because he was seen to be quite improperly devoted to some of his personal attendants, who were from the noblest families of all Italy, and to joke with them freely and rather amorously. But in that extremely slanderous court did even the best and holiest of princes escape the stings [i.e. verbal attacks] of the spiteful?", all we can conclude is that he don't make a conclusion in a sense or in another, so we can't affirm that Jovius stated that he was homosexual, but we can't affirm the opposite, as we could do if the translation of El Huinca was the good one : "The Pope was not spared from false accusations" (it's not exactly the same meaning). Anyway, it would be good to introduce some scholarly references... Frimoussou (talk) 18:41, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

[Edit conflict -- I think in general I'm agreeing with Frimoussou's post!] I was the Vicipaedian who made a suggested translation. Please forgive me for not having read the whole discussion above. It's clear to me that the modern label "homosexual" helps to cause a problem, because in earlier periods labels of that kind were less often applied, so they aren't often found in the sources.

Paulus Jovius says nothing, and implies nothing, and doesn't claim to know anything or that there is anything to know, about what Pope Leo X did in private. He's saying that there was scandal and that it was caused by the fact that the Pope was seen, in the court, to be attracted to some of his attendants, and by his "tender" or "amorous" (we might say "suggestive") speech and jokes with them.

In my view, "infamy", although it happens that this word is used in Latin, is too strong in English for what Paulus Jovius is saying; in my view also, "false accusations" is a mistake because Paulus Jovius is not denying the accusations, he is simply reporting them. I chose "scandal" because scandal can be true or false.

In my view "played" is misleading because in English it tends to imply physical acts of some kind. The Latin "iocari" means to joke, jest or speak playfully. I don't know if any of this helps at all ... Andrew Dalby 18:50, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

I shouldn't be doing this, I've got a book to finish ...

I can help with the Guicciardini quotation. The long quotation, with the extra details, is correct -- everyone above was looking in the wrong place, I think. It's a long book. I found it by looking back at McCabe, who gives a precise citation here (page 409 footnote 2). OK, in book 16 chapter 5, where he sums up Leo's pontificate, Guicciardini really does say what is quoted. On the Italian Wikisource it's book 16 chapter 12, and this is the Italian text:

Credettesi per molti, nel primo tempo del pontificato, che e’ fusse castissimo; ma si scoperse poi dedito eccessivamente, e ogni dí piú senza vergogna, in quegli piaceri che con onestà non si possono nominare.

That says, as close as I can get it, "those pleasures that cannot be named with decency". and Guicciardini doesn't say this was "alleged", he says it was "revealed", so he is treating it as true. Again, hope that helps. Andrew Dalby 20:02, 3 January 2015 (UTC) I see that CarlosPn arrived one hour ahead of me, above, with the same information!

Very much indeed. I'm happy not to have been a "vandal" when I reverted El Huinca's "definitive" edits after all... What a loss of time on these translations.Frimoussou (talk) 20:08, 3 January 2015 (UTC)

Thank you Andrew Dalby and Frimoussou for your patient work. I'm sorry I came so late to be able to make any useful contribution. It's so sad that in 2015 a number of editors are still motivated by such intense "religious fervor" against articles which deal with the issue of homosexuality. Much better to deal with the issue in a dispassionate and objective way I believe - treating it no differently to any other detail concerning the life of Leo X. Contaldo80 (talk) 14:05, 5 January 2015 (UTC)

WP:FRINGE

(A) Bayle, a French rationalist, has been cited in support of a complex proposition advanced by him in his long entry on Leo X in his Critical and Historical Dictionary (new edn., Paris, 1820, vol.9, pp.143-162) :- (1) somebody considered (On prétend . . ) (2) that Giovanni de'Medici was elected pope (3) because of a wound (les blessures) (4) which he acquired through sexual activity (dans les combats vénériens). A wiki editor added the false statement (5) that the fistula developed during the conclave. But since Bayle reports that it was the malady which retarded Giovanni's journey to Rome, Bayle cannot have believed (and did not write nor has anyone ever claimed) that it "developed at the time of the conclave which elected him". Thus the passage in the wiki sub-section at this point traduces what Bayle wrote and is pure invention. I have previously deleted it. The wiki sub-section was also in error in truncating the quotation, omitting On prétend which I restored in a previous edit.

(B) Bayle's source for the nexus between (2) and (3) is Antoine Varillas (1624-1696), a French littérateur and historian whom Bayle himself criticised for being contradictory and unreliable. Roscoe (vol. 2, pp.237-239 including a quote from and discussion of Bayle) dismisses out of hand the idea that the abscess, as he calls it, "was attributable to any irregularities of [Giovanni's] past life". The source was Varillas' Les Anecdotes de Florence ou L'Histoire Secrète de la Maison de Medicis, 1687, book VI, p.253 (Roscoe gives the false ref. p. 235) and p.257. Varillas nowhere attributes the malady to sexual activity but says in terms that the conclave deadlock was broken when Cardinal de' Medici's abscess (abscès) opened with a foul stench leading his physicians to prognosticate a shortened life for him. Proposition (4) is Bayle's own gratuitous embellishment from which he resiles in his long footnote (B).

(C) No reliable source claims that the fistula developed as a result of sexual activity. The most recent writer (Strathern, p.266) says it was "caused by his long period in the saddle during his military campaigns". Giovio in book III of his Vita explains that the malady (he calls it an abscess and says nothing about its origin) was the remote cause of Giovanni's election because it was so debilitating that physicians were exceptionally summoned to the conclave to treat him and word got around that he was so ill that he had not long to live. It was this idea that the pontificate would be short which, according to Giovio, broke the deadlock and cleared the way for Giovanni to be elected (evidently Varillas' source on this point). This account of the conclave is repeated variously, but Strathern, for example (whose sole cited source for Leo X is Roscoe), makes no reference to it, and Vaughan (The Medici Popes, 1908, p.108) gives no credit to the story that the election had anything to do with an expectation that Giovanni de' Medici had not long to live. He relegates the discussion of the "infirmity" to a footnote (on p.112). The Encyclopaedia Britannica article (vol.16, 1911, pp.433-436) notes of the "incurable malady" only that it "darkened his days" (p.436, col.1) and does not connect it with the conclave. Pellegrini has written two long encyclopedia entries on Leo X (Enciclopedia dei Papi, 2000, and Dizionario Biografico degli Italiani, 2005, vol. 64): in the former place he mentions the "fistola" only in connection with the Petrucci conspiracy (the plan to corrupt Leo's surgeon to introduce the poison while ostensibly treating the fistula); in both places (but without mentioning the fistula) he allows that Giovanni's bad health (la malferma salute, giving no details) might have indicated a short pontificate.

(D) Guicciardini (Book 13, cap. VII) reports the malady as a fistula under the buttocks, but in the context of a suspicion that Leo died from poisoning, and with no reference to the conclave. If it needs saying, neither Giovio nor Guicciardini attributes the fistula to sexual activity, nor do they report that anyone else drew sexual implications from it. Gregorovius (fistula, Book 8, Part 1, p.175) mentions it, but makes nothing of it. Pastor (Eng. trans, vol VII, p.19) ditto.

(E) Varillas, whom Bayle quotes at length in his footnote (B)) located the injury (les blessuers) on Giovanni's private parts (aux parties que la pudeur défend de nommer). If it had been where Varrillas said it was, it might possibly suppose a venereal disease. Bayle corrects Varillas on the location of the injury, quoting Giovio (au fondament, translating Giovio's innatum ab ima sede abscessum)

(F) Bayle then comments, that if Giovio was correct, the malady would not seem to have a disgraceful cause. Whether Bayle's anatomy, physiology, pathology or aetiology is sound has nothing to do with the case.

(G) In an English translation of this part of Bayle's footnote (a 4 volume set of excerpts published in London, 1826), we read (vol.2, pp.389-404, at pp.391.):-

Not to conceal anything, I am obliged to acquaint my reader that Paulus Jovius does not place this ulcer in the place where Varillas does, but in the fundament, which would suppose a disgraceful cause: and with the same sincerity I add, that this pope ascended his throne with a great reputation of chastity, if we believe Guicciardini, and was reckoned very continent from his youth, if we credit Paul Jovius . . . and lastly I observe, in the sense in which I allege Varillas's words, and which Seckendorf gives them, is gathered only from consequences, and such as do not necessarily follow from them.

(H) This translation is incorrect in a material part, for what Bayle actually wrote was:-

Pour ne rien dissimuler, je dois avertir mon lecteur, que Paul Jove ne met point l'abscès aux mêmes parties que Varillas : il le met au fondement [here he quotes the passage from Giovio I have already quoted], ce qui ne marquerait pas une origine honteuse [my emphasis: trans. "which would not suppose a disgraceful cause"].

(J) In conclusion: (i) Bayle himself does not credit a sexual origin to what he (following Varillas) calls an abscess (abscès). (ii) The sole source for proposition (4) is Bayle who palms the idea off on Varillas (who in fact makes no observation as to the cause of the malady). (iii) The nexus between (2) and (3) is anyway disputed by historians and, for the most recent writers from and after 1911, it is an insignificant sideline not worth mentioning.

The Bayle sentence has no place in wikipedia, being (a) a misrepresentation of what Bayle wrote (b) concerning an aetiological inference drawn by him from (c) Varillas (d) based on a point of anatomy as to which Bayle himself corrected Varillas, and (e) on which no other writer has ever followed Bayle who (f) effectively resiled, in a footnote, from the off-hand and utterly prejudicial remark made in his main text. I have accordingly deleted the Bayle material. Any re-instatement must address the detailed argument I have presented here. Ridiculus mus (talk) 09:59, 17 March 2015 (UTC)

Character

The section "Legacy" contains material that properly belongs under this head: I am thinking of the Pope's love of revelry and the exotic (e.g. Hanno), and his prodigality (see "Spendthrift"). What is missing is any reference to his love of buffoonery and his inordinate devotion to the chase. Treatment of these will help to balance out the section on character. Ridiculus mus (talk) 04:10, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Search for consensus

The purpose of a talkpage is to facilitate consensus on disputed topics appertaining to the relative article. Editors are not obliged to abandon their personal convictions in talk when striving for consensus. The article can reflect personal opinions held by editors if they can adduce reliable sources to the same effect ; even then, questions of proper weight, balance and proportion (see WP:BALASPS, WP:UNDUE and the bar on WP:FRINGE) limit scope for editors to parade their preoccupations under cover of edits. Nor is "biased" sufficient to exclude a source (see WP:BIASED).

Note also, as stated in the relevant policy statement:-

Wikipedia aims to present competing views in proportion to their representation in reliable sources on the subject . . We should keep in mind that, in determining proper weight, we consider a viewpoint's prevalence in reliable sources, not its prevalence among Wikipedia editors or the general public.

Disagreement over the title, content, and even existence of the "Sexuality" sub-section is manifest not only from the vigorous interventions here (see topics 5,6,9, and 12-18 above), but in its vexed edit history from its creation in March 2008 by Contaldo80 (blanked on grounds of plagiarism two months later, and restored in a new form by Contaldo80 days after).

The sub-section originally began "Various indications point to Leo's homosexuality" and ended " . . the question of Leo's homosexuality may in future be discussed on the basis of firmer evidence." To my mind, that remains a truer reflection of the sources than the current version, although the dispassionate observer might contest the viability of so flaccid a piece. It might merit space in a gay Who's Who scrabbling for entries; but in an encyclopedia? Hence the strenuous but (as I believe) vain efforts over the years to firm up this speculative and tentative material which still discloses its true nature in (a) the editorial use of words such as "implying", "allegedly", "suggestions", and "suspicions" and (b) the vague and allusive nature of what is adduced from the sources.

In an attempt to move the discussion to a positive and stable outcome I created on my userpage one sandbox to explore the issues, and a another for exploring what a credible draft of the sub-section might look like. All editors are welcome to join in. Ridiculus mus (talk) 11:54, 5 February 2015 (UTC)

@sandbox: Strathern in his history of the Medici family actually does not indicate that Leo was homosexual. He says only that there were laviscious parties at his court, with young boys in puddings, but Leo himself was not engaged in sexual activity. CarlosPn (talk) 19:33, 6 February 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for the reminder, CarlosPn. You wrote before that you had the Polish translation of Strathern's Medici: Godfathers of the Renaissance. I have now obtained a copy of the original English text, and of those extravagant parties (he does not even call them "lascivious") he wrote : "Curiously [they] do not seem to have involved sexual misdemeanours; Leo X enjoyed watching the show, rather than taking part in it. He would clap his podgy hands in delight [etc.]" Nothing on page 277 or anywhere in the book so much as hints at any sexual behaviour of any kind by Leo X. The opening sentence of the "sexuality" section is an outrageous invention. I am now investigating the edit history in my sandbox to see how such a farago came to impose itself on the reading public. It seems clear that the major responsibility for the material lies with Contaldo80 who rather ostentatiously excused himself from participating in the review of the evidence. Ridiculus mus (talk) 16:40, 16 March 2015 (UTC)

"Ostentatiously excused"? You are funny. In what way have I been "ostentatious"? Or perhaps you're looking for "flamboyant" - isn't that always the word they euphemistically use for someone that's gay? I have not been involved in your sandbox because I simply do not trust your motives. I do not think you're editing in good faith. You have shown nothing to suggest that you have an open-mind on the sexuality of Leo - or that you have edited any articles to improve the coverage of LGBT issues on wikipedia. Rather you are coming at the issue simply as a Catholic editor (as your editorial history supports). In fact the edits that you're put in the supporting footnote are extraordinary - "Dall'Orto, a self-described militant gay homosexual". What!? An irrelevant point about Falcone and McCabe having wanted to be priests - are you implying that they distort because they're bitter at not remaining in the Catholic church? Contaldo80 (talk) 09:22, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

(1) I haven't helped improve coverage of LGBT issues on wikipedia: that supports your charge of bad faith? (careful !! WP:GF) And I "have shown nothing to suggest I have an open mind on the sexuality of Leo"? Contrary to your comment of 23 Jan. 2015 (9:57), I did not "talk about the absurdity of a pope being homosexual", but I did object to the anachronistic use of the term. The dearth of information keeps my mind open on Leo's sexual proclivities. (2) It's not irrelevant to report Dall'Orto's self-description as militante gay (dal 1976). The source most likely to be favourable to the proposition you contend for is frank about the tepid quality of the evidence in support. (3) Not for the first time, you misread me: it's not that Falconi and McCabe wanted to be priests; they were priests, but left ministry. Since they are the only historians outside the consensus, it seems pertinent to note that fact. I ascribe no motives, but read the preface to McCabe's book for his polemical attitude to the Church and the Papacy in particular. Ridiculus mus (talk) 17:57, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

Sexual immorality

Following my shocking discovery about the Strathern citation, and in the light of the material discussed under the previous topic, not to mention my minute treatment of the issue in the sandox I created for intensive analysis of the sources (as to which only Frimoussou contributed), I have now revised my draft substitute for the existing sub-section "Sexuality" and it is available HERE for viewing and comment. Ridiculus mus (talk) 08:53, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

If it needs to be said, the existing state of the sub-section, even after severe pruning of the more culpable elements, remains intolerable since it is grossly unbalanced. The citation of McCabe is particularly indefensible, for not only is his work polemically anti-Catholic in both intent and form (see his Preface, passim), but his pretended discussion of the sources bearing on Leo's morals is marred by distortion of the treatments by Pastor and Vaughan whom McCabe (ironically) accuses of lack of professional objectivity, unjustly claiming the former was guilty of untruthfulness and the latter of lying. Evenso, McCabe has to labour mightily (p.409) to make anything of what is found in either Giovio or Guicciardini:-

. . .the belief that he began to indulge in unnatural vice after he became Pope was so seriously held in Rome that the two leading historians of his time record it and seem to share it. [emphasis added]

McCabe's translation of the second part of the Guicciadini sentence is so anodyne as to belie Pastor's view (vol.8, p.81) that Guicciardini "brings strong though general accusations". What McCabe writes (quoting Guicciardini) is:- "Leo began during his pontifical career to be 'excessively devoted to pleasures which cannot be called decent'." And, after citing the chamberlains story, he concedes:- "[Giovio] goes on to say that it is proper to believe 'that this is gossip,' and that it is wicked to 'claim to have penetrated the secrets of the night'." McCabe glosses this by commenting:- "In other words, he plainly tells his readers that the charge is true, but it is better not to say you believe it." Not an interpretation that any other historian or commentator - from Bayle in the 17th c. to Dall'Orto in the 21st c. - has felt able to draw from Giovio's words. Ridiculus mus (talk) 10:27, 21 March 2015 (UTC)

I'm not happy with the paragraph as it stands. It needs changing. I want a clear reference to the claim that Leo was homosexual. Not some vague and prudish suggestions about lacking chastity. I'd also ask Catholic editors to bear in mind the principle of neutrality when editing. Can I also remind people that a person can still be homosexual and yet not have homosexual sexual activity. Contaldo80 (talk) 09:14, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

There are no "clear claims" of homosexuality. The only relevant claims are of "sodomy" which no reputable secondary source considers to be credible. The evidence in the secondary sources has been fairly and fully dealt with. I revert all Contaldo80's amendments. He has had abundant opportunity to contribute to consensus-building and insists on pushing his own agenda, a fact manifest from previous tendentious and erroneous edits of his spanning several years. If he wishes to pursue the debate he must do so on a talk-page and not via edit wars. Ridiculus mus (talk) 04:53, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

The amendments I made were perfectly acceptable. There is no point having rafts of material under the section designed to tell us that everyone has dismissed the claims against Leo - without actually saying what those claims were, and why someone felt they needed to dismiss them. As the text stands it clarifies that a number of contemporary sources - Guicciardini, Giovio, Luther - suggested that either Leo performed sexual acts (sodomy as it would have been referred to then) or was sexually attracted to his male chamberlains (homosexuality as we refer to it today). The text then goes on to state that these claims cannot be proved conclusively either way. That seems perfectly reasonable. Nor is it acceptable to imply that the issue is insignificant. Martin Luther was using the sexual morality of the pope and cardinals to ask his fellow Germans to distance themselves from their obedience to Rome. I also think you need to back up your claim of "previous tendentious and erroneous edits of his spanning several years" otherwise I'm going to make a referral against what I regard as personal abuse. Thanks. Contaldo80 (talk) 08:24, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

See section 23 below. Ridiculus mus (talk) 18:23, 8 April 2015 (UTC)

I did't see, but it has been well whitewashed. Frimoussou (talk) 12:20, 10 April 2015 (UTC)