Talk:Pomeranian (German dialect group)

originally populated by west-slavic Pommeranians

Hi, I changed "originally" to more neutral "In the early middle-ages", just to avoid any nationalistic edit wars from a NPOV. Slavic settling started just some centuries before and of course they also assimilated local population (Baltic, Gothic, ...???). For better understanding I think it wouldn't be correct to say "England was originally populated by Anglo-Saxons before the Normans invaded". King Arthur and his Camelot Buddies might object! ;)

Please feel free to correct my english!

LanX --217.224.65.248 15:17, 22 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pommersch

(the following was originally posted to User talk:Olessi)

On 28 Sep 2006, on User_talk:J._'mach'_wust's Talk page, you wrote: Hello! I have created Pommersch to differentiate from "Pomeranian language", where the info had been for some time. I wasn't sure what the best title should be- Pommersch, Pomeranian dialects, Pomeranian (German dialects) etc., so I just went with Pommersch. Please feel free to correct, rename, update etc., as you seem quite knowledgeable about German dialects.

 ...so I just went with Pommersch.

If you haven't found a source for the word "Pommersch" in English, you can't use it. I suggest you visit the Ethnologue page about languages in Germany and see if it corresponds to Low Saxon or one of the other languages listed there. Otherwise, if we can't find a proper name for it, the Pommersch page may need to be deleted.

In addition, the German page from which you (in part) translated, is not correct, in my opinion. Compare, for example, Ethnologue's classification of Low Saxon. Mathglot 07:08, 26 December 2006 (UTC)

There's no reference to Pommersch in the ethnologue. However, the ethnologue is not that reliable a source for the distinction of German varieties (especially if they are largely extinct). So I wouldn't request that page's deletion. I'd be very wrong of that concept weren't really used in linguistics, as I think I found it when I was looking for sources on Low German. It may be hard to find sources in English, as most works on Low German varieties are probably written in German. Having another look at the ethnologue, it doesn't seem unusual to use a German name for lesser known varieties, for instance Kölsch language (though I dislike the language suffix in such articles). -- j. 'mach' wust ☛ ☏ 08:27, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

it doesn't seem unusual to use a German name for lesser known varieties, for instance Kölsch language

I think you miss the point. I see no problem whatever using a name of German origin for a language, lesser known or not. The point is, by Wiki rules, it needs a citation (in English) from somewhere reputable. We can't simply say, "Ethnologue (or whoever) uses the terms Alemannisch, Koelsch and Pfaelzisch, so by analogy I will use Pommersch " because that's not good enough. Reread the sections on Wikipedia:No_original_research and Wikipedia:Citing_sources. I believe you're right about Ethnologue not including extinct languages, but that simply means that the reputable source will have to be from elsewhere. Mathglot 10:17, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

So what would we do with a concept that has reputable sources, but none in English? My point was, in that case, we'd take the foreign name, as has already been done by ethnologue and wikipedia. By the way, there is a source already mentioned in the article, the Pommersches Wörterbuch. -- j. 'mach' wust ☛ ☏ 10:54, 26 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Vorpommersch (sorry, I don't know the proper names in English) belongs to Mecklenburgisch, both form a dialect called Mecklenburgisch-Vorpommersch (there is no Mecklenburgisch-Pommersch). Though there's a "Pommersch" in the name, it actually does not belong to the Pommeranian dialects. Have look at www.diwa.info, especially at the words "Korn", "Ohren", and "Pferd", there you will find some differences. So there are actually on the one hand Mecklenburgisch-Vorpommersch and on the other the Pommeranian dialects. By the way if you can't find any resources in English why don't you look at the OED? Maybe there's an English name for "Pommersch". If anyone can't find any resources in English my suggest would be to take the German name. You can't simply create an English name for it if it doesn't exit. However I disagree that this article must be removed then because you can't ignore that these dialects exist/have existed. It's simply common to take the foreign name then. --89.53.40.163 20:02, 21 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Move to Pomeranian (German dialect)

The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Pomeranian is the English name for this dialect, and this is the English wikipedia. This is all very logical, hence I already moved it, but User:Matthead reverted the move, most likely to try to annoy me. I will inform admins about this behaviour. In the mean time, if anyone opposes the move, please write down your objections below. Rex 10:46, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I oppose, as the Pomeranian language is a Slavic one, while Pommersch refers in German to things related to Pommern in general, and in English to German dialects of the area. Moving to Pomeranian (whatever) causes confusion.-- Matthead ^discuß! O 04:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Pomeranian (dialects), Pomeranian (German dialects), or Pomeranian (dialect group) would be better, as the term does not refer to one specific dialect. Olessi 17:16, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That would be fine with me. As long as we use English.Rex 19:23, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Sure, Rex' only motivation for his unilateral moves of articles is the use of English, as proven e.g. in his move from Greater Netherlands to Groot-Nederland. -- Matthead ^discuß! O 04:39, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

If Pomeranian is an established English term we should use that. Arnoutf 22:57, 8 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'd like to note to everyone that though User:Matthead opposes the move, he uses a personal argument. It should be ignored as it bears nothing factual.Rex 09:58, 9 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support move to Pomeranian (German dialects), or Pomeranian (German dialect group). — AjaxSmack 19:29, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

This article has been renamed from Pommersch to Pomeranian (German dialect group) as the result of a move request. Both User:Rex Germanus and User:Matthead are guilty of making personal attacks, and are warned to desist. It is usually pretty clear when attacks are being made, so to point them out is usually counter-prodcutive. --Stemonitis 09:22, 16 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]