Talk:Pogue

2007-02-8 Automated pywikipediabot message

--CopyToWiktionaryBot 22:03, 8 February 2007 (UTC)

Origins

Reference for the supposed sexual origin of the term? The folk etymology I have heard for this term is either from the seemingly improbable acronym P.O.G. ("people other than grunts"), or from the more likely Irish phrase 'pogue mo hone' ("kiss my arse").

"POG" is a contrivance and a backronym, albeit one completely misspelled and horrifyingly misapplied. I'm in the military and good grief I am tired of people insisting that the word "pogue" is simply the pronunciation of the acronym. First of all, this implies that the military invented the word "pogue," and that it was further an official-enough term to give it its own acroynm. My suspicion is that the word "pogue" is related to "pogueybait", naval slang for candy or other junk food. The sense of "pogue" being a derogatory term for Irish immigrants would make sense for both uses of the root word. Pogue would have been eventually adopted as a catch-all for lazy/cowardly servicemembers, and independently "baiting" a "pogue" would best be used with candy or the like. This "POG" nonsense infuriates me. Every time some stupid fucking jarhead says it's an acronym for person other than grunt I want to cave their head in. End of Rant.Robotempire 11:17, 2 July 2007 (UTC)

Seems to me the Philippine origin makes more sense than the Irish one given the "pogueybait" variation. Anyhow, I noticed that the 3rd and last paragraphs are repetitive, redundant, and repetitive. FWIW. --Davecampbell (talk) 21:17, 29 May 2009 (UTC)

'REMF also can mean Regional Engineering Manager (Field) or Ray Elliott (Manager, Field). The term has the same meanings as above.' Not finding any Ghits on these terms, I am deleting the line. Looks like cutesy vandalism.Mzmadmike (talk) 18:12, 20 July 2010 (UTC)

Modern Usage

From the article:

Due to having lost contact with its linguistic source, the modern military vernacular has turned "pogue" into a retronym/backronym. "Pogue" is now sometimes incorrectly described as the pronunciation of the acronym POG, or Person Other than Grunt, or Posted On Garrison.[2]

I write as a former US Marine (2003-2006) and ask that if modern usage uses "POG" as "Personnel Other than Grunt" (the only way I've heard it ever used), and the original "linguistic source" has been lost, is "POG" therefore not the accepted and "correct" usage even though it has a different origin - a sort of repurposing that trumps archaic and discontinued meaning? As another example, consider the word nigger's original (questionable in some cases) neutrality for a dark-skinned person compared to its modern racist meaning. No matter what the origins may have been, the modern usage is the only one of consideration in most circles. 24.40.86.151 (talk) 16:31, 3 January 2014 (UTC)

Make Fobbit redirect here?

I was surprised that fobbit had neither an article nor an automatic redirect. REMF, for "rear echelon motherfucker", does redirect here. This article covers the term 'fobbit'. Can we have 'fobbit' also redirect to this page, for the same reasons 'REMF' does? 75.61.128.238 (talk) 03:39, 24 October 2010 (UTC)

Is there no relationship to the fish called a <a href="http://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Menhaden">Pogy</a>? It's generally considered a 'trash fish' and would not be an extraordinary conceptual leap to link it with those who live off the vices of sailors. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.254.99.188 (talk) 15:22, 8 November 2010 (UTC)

That makes little sense, as Marines used the term as well. So, the relationship is dubious at best. We will suffice it to say, the term is used in a highly disparaging manner, much akin to the term "faggot", though denoting an even lower status in such groups of people. Think worse than useless phrased in the most insulting manner imaginable.Wzrd1 (talk) 02:59, 2 September 2014 (UTC)

Fobbit section

The following section has been moved here. It is unsourced and contains inappropriate language, and considering the light pink background, may well have been plagiarized. "Fobbit" is, of course, synonymous with the assorted name for REMFs, but we need an actual authoritative source other than my own 30 years "in". LTC (Ret.) David J. Cormier (talk) 21:59, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

This term is thematically similar to the newer word Fobbit which refers to non-combat arms soldiers who never leave their Forward Operating Base. Fobbit is a combination of the acronym FOB and term Hobbit from Tolkien's The Lord of the Rings series. Hobbits never leave the Shire, while Fobbits never leave the FOB. However, the terms are not synonymous because a functionary at the Pentagon might be termed a pogue or REMF (Rear Echelon Mother-Fucker) but could never be termed a Fobbit.

Backronym's aren't encyclopedic.

Before every man and their dog start flooding the site with what their uncles cousin's flat mates dog's first owner said FUCK really stands for perhaps the editors of this article should refrain from backronyms, besides stating that 'many people have applied backronym's to attempt to expand on the meaning of the term,' which is pretty much all that is needed in that regards. You don't want to get into the list-mania that Wikipedia collapsed to almost a decade ago. 121.211.33.244 (talk) 01:49, 15 December 2015 (UTC)

Irish

In Irish pogue is the word for kiss.

Is this of any relevance?

pogue Irish English /poʊɡ/ Frequency (in current use): Origin: A borrowing from Irish. Etymon: Irish póg. Etymology: < Irish póg kiss (Early Irish póc ) < the British base of Old Cornish poc- Irish English.

A kiss. c1675 Purgatorium Hibernicum in D. Ó Muirithe Dict. Anglo-Irish (1996) 152/1 An gave the one litle poge for old acquaintance. 1707 in H. Playford Wit & Mirth (new ed.) II. 246 He ask'd for a Pogue, she call'd him a Rogue. 1778 Charms of Chearfulness 39 Each man gave a pogue, To his sweet-heart. 1868 S. Ferguson Father Tom & Pope iv. 49 The real cork's dhrew..and it was the noise I made in dhrawing it, and nothing else, that you mistook for the sound ov the pogue. 1908 A. P. Graves Irish Poems (ed. 2) 42 The contract I'll seal wid—a pogue. 1998 K. Griffin in T. P. Dolan Dict. Hiberno-Eng. 202/1 Give us a póg, and be off with you!

A (young) male homosexual, esp. one who is the passive partner in a sexual relationship.In quot. 1919: spec. a man who prefers to be penetrated anally. 1919 U.S. Navy Court of Inquiry in Jrnl. Soc. Hist. 19 192 Hughes said he was a pogue; Richard said he was a cocksucker; Fred Hoage said he was a two-way artist. 1953 M. Dibner Deep Six xv. 131 ‘What's a pogue, Dutch?’.. ‘A sweet kid who'll do anything for a candy bar. Hell, a candy bar's called poguey-bait.’ 1974 R. Stone Dog Soldiers 85 He flashed him a quick approving downward glance. The kid was a pogue. 1996 A. Theroux Secondary Colors 260 A ‘green boy’ for homosexuals, is a pretty boy, a pogue, candy pants, a young brat.

Póg mo Thóin was an Irish band and that phrase is a common usage of the word.

EDLIS Café 18:24, 5 February 2017 (UTC)

Grunt

A grunt is an infantryman, no other MOS is considered a grunt . Therefor other combat arms can be POGs such as artillery, engineers, etc .

https://www.wearethemighty.com/military-life/6-ways-for-a-pog-to-be-accepted-by-grunts/

https://taskandpurpose.com/humor/15-things-pogs-will-understand/

This is universally how the infantry has seen it also Cowsthatfloat (talk) 04:32, 31 December 2020 (UTC)

This is wrong.

POGUE isn't a misspelling. It pre dates POG. POGUE means Person On Ground (with) Unused Equipment. Basically someone who deployed to the war theater but never saw action. This term can be applied to grunts as well as POGs (Persons Other (than) Grunts. 2600:6C40:700:C64:516F:6976:950F:DC9 (talk) 14:03, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Someone keeps vandalizing this article

Someone keeps vandalizing this article causing an edit word. Pogue is the correct word, and a backronym "POG" was later created and became commonly used. However, this is debated, which is why I assume the vandal keeps doing this.

The vandal is changing the referenced cases of the word Pogue being used in the military. For example they changed

"At the beginning of World War II, pogue was used by Marine drill instructors to refer to trainees believed not to meet the expected standards or failing to display the appropriate esprit de corps. [3]"

to

"At the beginning of World War II, "pog" was used by Marine drill instructors to refer to trainees believed not to meet the expected standards or failing to display the appropriate esprit de corps. [3]"

But you can access the referenced book "FUBAR: Soldier Slang of World War II, Gordon L Rottman." here: https://vdoc.pub/documents/fubar-fed-up-beyond-all-recognition-soldier-slang-of-world-war-ii-general-military-2ot2ass32s00

And when you go to page 86 of the referencced book you can see:

"pogue - Sissy individual or platoon. A name bestowed by Marine DIs on those failing to meet standards, not working hard enough, or failing to display sufficient esprit de corps. Unfit to wear the globe and anchor insignia."

And POG or pog does not appear in that book at all.

And for reference 5 it doesn't at all support the section that references it at all.

With the book saying:

"POG. [Pronounced "pogue"]. People Other than Grunts. Rear-echelon support troops. Arose in 2005 as a synonum for fobbit."

And the section with that citation saying: "During Desert Storm in Saudi Arabia and Kuwait, "pog" referred to anyone who arrived in theater after the speaker. [5]"

I am not sure if that is the wrong citation or not but the citation doesn't support that statement. Although, the book cited is wrong as POG has been in use earlier than 2005 and existed prior to the term Fobbit. So it probably isn't a good citation to include anyway.

I would also note that the very first citation also is the definition for "pogue" which states:

pogue [ pōg ] (plural pogues)

noun

Definition:

1. an offensive term for somebody regarded as a coward or sissy

2. an offensive term for a member of the armed forces employed in a rear echelon support capacity pogue

So while it is probably worth mentioning the ongoing debate among the military community regarding whether it is "Pogue" or "POG", the citations listed here I was able to verify generally support the pogue as the original word with POG being added later as a backronym grafted onto pogue.

I am going to make a few edits to fix some of the vandalization, but I am not an experienced wiki-editor by any means, so feel free to fix it up better than I do, and something probably needs to be done to stop the edit war/vandalizing. 2600:1700:1041:A690:D0F1:34C7:2A61:ADCE (talk) 14:47, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I went ahead and reverted to the most recent accurate version of the article I could identify and fixed the "At the beginning of World War II, "pog" was used by Marine drill instructors to refer to trainees believed not to meet the expected standards or failing to display the appropriate esprit de corps. [3]" line to correctly use pogue as in the cited reference.

The article could probably use some better editing though, and probably does need a section discussing the newer backronym and possible the debate that exists. 2600:1700:1041:A690:D0F1:34C7:2A61:ADCE (talk) 15:01, 29 November 2022 (UTC)

I wanted to come and discuss re-editing this as the definition has erroneously changed again. There is a lot of misinformation in this. The origin is controversial and has different origins and Since Vietnam POG (POGUE) has meant Person other than Grunt. Someone who's not infantry. People keep removing the modern use of this word and it's deep meaning in current military circles. There's plenty of articles to back that it's a current slang term to describe non-infantry. I am going to make the edit but can we please lock this? Much like other threads, non-infantry people continue to vandalize Wikipedia changing meanings that aren't true.

https://coffeeordie.com/pog-or-pogue

https://course-exhibits.library.dartmouth.edu/s/HIST10_23S/page/pog#:~:text=The%20term%20POG's%20(Personnel%20Other,Combat%20Engineers%2C%20Forward%20Observers)

https://thedogtagchronicles.com/2012/04/04/why-grunts-hate-pogs/

https://www.military.com/off-duty/2020/02/05/fascinating-beginning-term-pog.html Mrkoww (talk) 00:02, 29 July 2024 (UTC)