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Archive 1

photo

What about the photo album and accessory company named Pioneer? They're a big name in the business. http://www.pioneerphotoalbums.com/ --DigitalGadget 08:52, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Create an article about them and add a link to the disambiguation page. You know what to do! ProhibitOnions (T) 09:55, 12 March 2008 (UTC)

Primary topic discussion

I'm opening a discussion here following a dispute with another editor (diff) and an exchange on my user talk page. There is a disambiguation formatting convention that if an article exists at a given title with no parenthetical clarifier, it should be linked at the top of the title's associated disambiguation page via a primary topic line (see MOS:D#Linking to a primary topic). Since there is an article at pioneer, it should be linked at the top of this disambiguation page per the aforementioned guideline. If there's an argument that the article currently at pioneer shouldn't be the primary topic, we can file a move request at WP:RM to determine whether to move this disambiguation page to pioneer and move the current pioneer article to a disambiguated title. However, until that discussion takes place, I feel that this page should follow current disambiguation page formatting guidelines and the primary topic line should be included. --Muchness (talk) 03:50, 19 September 2008 (UTC)

Either you are in the legal profession, or have been in Wikipedia way too long. A guideline is just that. It is not an iron cast rile that needs to be made "a federal case" of. I wikilinked the term at the top to the article. It need not have a "primary topic line". And for the record, we are not having a dispute--mrg3105 (comms) ♠04:11, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Not having a dispute? The page history seems to disagree with you on that one, as does that of Pioneer. Whatever disagreements there are over the latter article, it remains the case that the preferred format for a disambiguation page to link the primary topic (in this case, currently Pioneer) in the first line with a brief definition, followed by an introductory line for the other entries. If the primary topic details an original as well as current usage of a term, I'm sure that can be reflected in what's written here. H.G. 06:57, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
Yeah, it needs to have a primary topic line, because it has a primary topic. Of course we can ignore all rules, but there would need to be a reason to do so, and consensus on that. -- JHunterJ (talk) 11:20, 19 September 2008 (UTC)
So what you're alleging, mrg, is that the military definition of "pioneer" (historically AND currently) is different from the definition most of us are familiar with ("a person or an organisation who is one of the first to do something"); consequently, the definition on the disambiguation page should not ignore the original/military meaning in favor of the more modern/derivative meaning. Is this correct? If so, (and Merriam-Webster confirms the military definition) there's absolutely no reason why the definition on the disambiguation page can't reflect both meanings; in fact, it probably should. It's fairly preposterous, though, to suggest that the definition reflect only the military usage, since the vast majority of entries on this page have absolutely nothing to do with combat engineers. We might as well make the bicycle page all about penny-farthings. --Fullobeans (talk) 07:39, 20 September 2008 (UTC)
If you look at the changes I made, you will see that I had not suggested that pioneer be only defined in the military sense. However, I object to a derived modern meaning being used as the absolute and only definition of the word. Pioneer in other two meaning is rarely if ever used without a qualifier, "in a field" in the case of innovator, and by geographical location in the case of a settler--mrg3105 (comms) ♠13:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
I'm skeptical whether the article at the primary topic title pioneer is currently covering the most common usage of the word. At any rate, I've opened a move request discussion at Talk:Pioneer#Requested move (archived discussion now located at Talk:Pioneer (military)#Requested move) to hopefully get some clarity on this matter. --Muchness (talk) 12:47, 21 September 2008 (UTC)
Actually, the move u requested at wp:Requested moves would be discussed on this talk page here, at a section named Requested move, which i'll create for you now. doncram (talk) 16:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
No it wouldn't, because I was referring to a move request resolved prior to your comment. I was requesting that the article formerly at pioneer be moved to pioneer (military), and the dab page moved to pioneer. That move has been completed and the relevant move request archived. I've attempted to clarify the prior move discussion below, at #Requested move --Muchness (talk) 02:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)
I am sceptical about dictionaries. In any case, common usage has little to do with it. That, is what the disambiguation redirect is for on the article. My personal belief is that much confusion can be avoided if logic is used in naming articles. This is why I often include etymological entry in the article to show evolution in the meaning of the article's subject, which is sometimes considerable. In this case, a "pioneer in the field" is a literal reference tot he road construction the workers in pioneer companies were engaged in, and were therefore "ahead of the rest".--mrg3105 (comms) ♠13:49, 21 September 2008 (UTC)

I have reverted to JHunterJ's version. Disambiguation pages are for navigating between Wikipedia articles. They are not for external links or entries which don't lead to Wikipedia articles. Thank you. H.G. 07:04, 20 September 2008 (UTC)

split The Pioneer from Pioneer

Can "The Pioneer", which is used as the title for 2 works of art and for 2 publications, be split out from "Pioneer"? The former dab at The Pioneer was redirected to Pioneer. I've now restored it, adding the 4th item. Can it stay, and if so the 3 within the current Pioneer article can be dropped? If not, the new one, The Pioneer (Visalia, California), needs to be added to Pioneer. I think "The Pioneer" is a distinct usage, worth separating, but i don't care very much. doncram (talk) 16:04, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

disambiguation vs. list of items having the word

It appears to me that many of the "Business" and "Other" items on this disambiguation page don't need disambiguation here. For example two places named "Pioneer High School" should be disambiguated at separate dab for that, there's no need to mix them into "Other" here. FYI, there are 63 places listed on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places that include the word Pioneer:

refnum resname city statecd
95001363 Arizona Pioneers' Home Prescott AZ
96000050 Bothell Pioneer Cemetery Bothell WA
95000803 Chamber's Prairie--Ruddell Pioneer Cemetery Lacey WA
74001983 Deep River Pioneer Lutheran Church Deep River WA
93000652 Dunham, Z. T., Pioneer Stock Farm Dunlap IA
97000850 Eugene Pioneer Cemetery Eugene OR
94000809 Fernwood Pioneer Cemetery Newberg OR
73000574 Florida Pioneer Museum Florida City FL
98000208 Lebanon Pioneer Cemetery Lebanon OR
98000305 Lincoln Pioneer Village Rockport IN
02000612 Minneapolis Pioneers and Soldiers Memorial Cemetery Minneapolis MN
04001357 Montana Veterans and Pioneers Memoiral Building Helena MT
90001952 Morrison, Robert Harvey, Farm and Pioneer Mills Gold Mine Midland NC
74001938 Old Pioneer Fort Site Salt Lake City UT
04001491 Palarm Bayou Pioneer Cemetery Morgan AR
73000764 Pioneer Adobe House Hillsboro KS
74001038 Pioneer and Endicott Buildings St. Paul MN
75000069 Pioneer Aztalan Site Aztalan WI
80000134 Pioneer Block Eau Claire WI
90001441 Pioneer Bluffs Ranch Historic District Matfield Green KS
83004217 Pioneer Building New Rochelle NY
80003289 Pioneer Building Oklahoma City OK
77001340 Pioneer Building, Pergola, and Totem Pole Seattle WA
75000520 Pioneer Cabin Colorado Springs CO
07000754 Pioneer Cemetery Sidney NY
73001893 Pioneer Church Cathlamet WA
80003253 Pioneer Club Atoka OK
73001582 Pioneer Courthouse Portland OR
85002813 Pioneer Deep Space Station Fort Irwin CA
70000422 Pioneer Farm Dansville NY
83000325 Pioneer Gothic Church Dwight IL
78002576 Pioneer Hall Pleasant Hill TN
70000645 Pioneer Hall Seattle WA
78002330 Pioneer Hall, Linfield College McMinnville OR
95000363 Pioneer House Clarksville AR
89000275 Pioneer Hydroelectric Power Plant Historic District Ogden UT
04000790 Pioneer Log Cabin Bowling Green KY
85000919 Pioneer Market Casa Grande AZ
88003377 Pioneer Memorial State Park Harrodsburg KY
06001317 Pioneer Military and Memorial Park Phoenix AZ
78003127 Pioneer Mine Buildings and A Headframe Ely MN
07001208 Pioneer Park Bandshell Brookings SD
99001097 Pioneer Register Torrey UT
93001011 Pioneer School Clark WY
80000747 Pioneer School House Anchorage AK
73000479 Pioneer Sod House Wheat Ridge CO
88000739 Pioneer Square--Skid Road Historic District (Boundary Increase) Seattle WA
70000086 Pioneer Square-Skid Road District Seattle WA
78000341 Pioneer Square-Skid Road District (Boundary Increase) Seattle WA
82002846 Pioneer State Bank No. 36 North Branch MI
04001528 Pioneer Theater--Auditorium Reno NV
86003727 Pioneer Trunk Factory--C. A. Malm & Co. San Francisco CA
78002238 Pioneer Woman Statue Ponca City OK
82002249 Pioneer Woolen Mills and D. Ghirardelli Company San Francisco CA
93000538 Pioneers Park Lincoln NE
01000117 Pioneers, The Elmwood IL
83003332 Saint's Rest, Tukey's Pioneer Cabin and Homestead House Port Townsend WA
79000413 Sitka Pioneers' Home Sitka AK
84002980 Smith, N. P., Pioneer Hardware Store Bend OR
77000358 The Pioneer Visalia CA
97000323 Union Cemetery--Pioneer Calvary Cemetery Tumwater WA
87000189 Webber, Henry, House--Pioneer Park Aspen CO
77001023 Yegen House and Pioneer Grocery Bismarck ND

Above list of NRHPs with word "Pioneer" is courtesy of User:Elkman, who provides a generator tool. I think the one named "The Pioneer" needs disambiguation, but most of the rest do not. doncram (talk) 16:14, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.


It was requested by Muchness to move the dab "Pioneer" to "Pioneer (military)". This was discussed in sections above, but mixed in with other stuff. This section created for discussion of that request, still current at wp:Requested moves. doncram (talk) 16:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)

  • Comment It seems that "Pioneer" serves more general disambiguation purposes than just covering military issues. It seems to me that a separate list-article, a set index article, on military uses of the term pioneer can be created, and be included in a "See also" section of the Pioneer disambiguation article. doncram (talk) 16:29, 28 September 2008 (UTC)
  • I just want to correct an apparent misconception, I did not request to move the dab Pioneer to Pioneer (military) as stated above. I requested that the article formerly at pioneer be moved to pioneer (military), and the article formerly at pioneer (disambiguation) be moved to pioneer. The discussion took place at Talk:Pioneer (military)#Requested move; the request was completed on 12:03, 28 September 2008 (diff) and delisted from WP:RM (diff). The issue you're raising now is independent of the (now resolved and archived) earlier move request. --Muchness (talk) 02:52, 29 September 2008 (UTC)

I'm going to go ahead and archive this discussion, since its premise was based on a misconception, it hasn't been listed at WP:RM, and no argument has been made in favor of this move request. --Muchness (talk) 03:50, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

propose to reduce page

Shouldn't the Pioneer disambig page be limited to items that are likely to be the object of a reader's search? Please understand, I am new to dab page editing and I am not sure of the rules. But I think the phrases that merely include the word "pioneer" should be deleted or moved to separate new list-articles on companies having the word Pioneer in their name, etc., getting the dab down to just the following useful for disambiguation. This involves dropping Pioneer High School, Bush Pioneers, and other usages that i don't think would be searched for here. doncram (talk) 20:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

You're basically on track, except you need to be careful not to be over zealous about removing items simply based on the article title. Many names are commonly known as "Pioneer", but the article may have a somewhat different title -- often for the purposes of disambiguation. For example, based on their logos and company sites, Pioneer Corporation, Pioneer Hi-Bred, Pioneer Petroleum are all commonly known as simply Pioneer, and perhaps to a lesser degree, Pioneer Investments and Pioneer Surgical Technology may be referred to as such in some contexts. Similarly for many of the other entries, the more precise title may have been used for disambiguation -- or the simple term may be a valid alternate name. So some care needs to be exercised when trimming items. To be honest, the list at this point doesn't seem very bloated. There might be a few that could go, but I don't see a pressing need. Some, such as Geneon should probably be linked to through a redirect. olderwiser 21:13, 1 October 2008 (UTC)

(Begin proposed reduced page)

'''Pioneer''' or '''The Pioneer''' may refer to:

Arts and publications:
    * The Pioneer (Visalia, California), a sculpture by Solon H. Borglum listed on the U.S. National Register of Historic Places
    * The Pioneers (Elmwood, Illinois), a sculpture by Lorado Taft
    * The Pioneers (novel), a book by James Fenimore Cooper
    * The Pioneers (band), a Jamaican vocal trio
    * The Pioneer (Indian newspaper), an English-language newpaper published in India
    * The Pioneer, a nineteenth-century literary journal edited by James Russell Lowell
    * The Pioneer, a painting by Frederick McCubbin
Geography
    * Pioneer, California, USA
    * Pioneer, Iowa, USA
    * Pioneer, Louisiana, USA
    * Pioneer, Singapore, Singapore
Military
    * Pioneer (military), a type of soldier employed to perform engineering construction tasks
    * Pioneer (submarine), an 1862 submarine
Politics and religion
    * Pioneers (missions agency), a Christian missionary organization
    * Pioneering (Bahá'í), unpaid lay missionary work for the Bahá'í religion
    * Pioneer Movement, a communist youth movement
    * Mormon pioneers, members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who migrated to the Salt Lake Valley
    * Pioneer, a level of Baptized Publishers of Jehovah's Witnesses

Other uses
    * Pioneer program, a series of NASA probes launched between 1958 and 1978
    * Pioneer (Amtrak), a now-discontinued passenger train operated by Amtrak
    * Pioneer (schooner), a ship at the South Street Seaport Museum in New York City
    * Pioneer species, a plant adapted to an otherwise barren environment
    * Pioneer butterfly or Belenois aurota

See also
    * The Pioneer
    * Pioneer Township (disambiguation)
    * American pioneer
    * American Pioneers to the Northwest Territory
    * Settler
    * Innovator
    * All pages beginning with Pioneer

(end proposed reduced page)