Talk:Pietro Ducros

Is Pietro Ducros the same man as Louis Ducros?

Dear all,

for arguments' sake, consider the following:

Based on a regrouping of several sources hereafter:

A/ The name "Pietro Ducros" figures in a dictionary in Italian from 1824 :

author : Gioacchino Maria Olivier-Poli

Italian: "Continuazione al Nuovo Dizionario Istorico degli uomini che si sono renduti piu' celebri per talenti, virtu', scelleratezze, errori, ec., la quale abbraccia il periodo degli ultimi 40 anni dell' era volgare." p. 399

English: "Continuation of the New Historical Dictionary of people who have made themselves most famous for talents, virtues, wickedness, errors, etc., which covers the period of the last 40 years of the common era. p. 399

Original text in Italian:

"DUCROS (Pietro), pittore paesista ed incisore, nacque in Svizzera nel 1745. Dopo aver acquistato nell’ arte sua cognizioni abbastanza estese per sentire la necessità di aumentarle, e di perfezionare il suo talento come pittore e come incisore, si portò in Italia, e si stabili tosto in Roma, ove si unì in amicizia con Volpato. Ambedue intrapresero di dare una collezione di vedute di Roma e delle belle campagne che circondano quella città. La loro intrapresa ottenne il più brillante successo, e Ducros acquistò la riputazione di un eccellente paesista e di un abile incisore. Si unì egualmente con un artista romano, Paolo Montagnari, e pubblicarono in società 24 vedute della Sicilia e dell' isola di Malta, opera non meno rimarchevole della prima, e che ebbe il medesimo successo. Istruitissimo nella sua arte, appassionato per il genere che aveva adottato, avendo viaggiato con vantaggio e disegnato i siti più interessanti delle contrade che aveva percorse, era giunto a formare con questo mezzo una collezione bellissima e curiosissima di disegni. Questa collezione, ed in generale tutte le opere di Ducros, sono molto ricercate in Svizzera, in Germania ed in Inghilterra, ove sono più conosciute che in Francia. Ha dato, oltre le vedute che abbiamo di già citate : "Veduta di Palermo, presa da Monreale"; "Veduta del teatro di Tauromina"; "Veduta dell' Etna"; "Veduta dell' Anfiteatro di Siracusa"; "Veduta e dell' interno della città di Messina", dopo il tremuoto ch' avvenne nel 1783; finalmente "Vedute del porto delle galere dell' arsenale di Malta". Ducros ritornò nella sua patria, e morì a Losanna nel mese di febbraio 1810."

Translated:

"DUCROS (Pietro), landscape painter and engraver, was born in Switzerland in 1745. After having acquired enough knowledge in his art to feel the need to increase it, and to perfect his talent as a painter and as an engraver, he went to Italy and soon settled in Rome, where he became friends with Volpato. Both undertook to create a collection of views of Rome and the beautiful countryside surrounding that city. Their venture was most successful, and Ducros acquired the reputation of an excellent landscape painter and skilled engraver. He also joined forces with a Roman artist, Paolo Montagnari, and they jointly published 24 views of Sicily and the island of Malta, a work no less remarkable than the former, and equally successful. Well-educated in his art, passionate about the genre he had adopted, having travelled extensively and drawn the most interesting sites of the countries he had travelled through, he had come to form a beautiful and very peculiar collection of drawings. This collection, and, in general, all the works of Ducros, are much sought after in Switzerland, Germany and England, where they are better known than in France. In addition to the views we have already mentioned, he has produced: "View of Palermo, taken from Monreale"; "View of the Theatre of Tauromina"; "View of Mount Etna"; "View of the Amphitheatre of Syracuse"; "View of the Interior of the City of Messina", after the earthquake of 1783; and finally "Views of the Port of the Galleys of the Arsenal of Malta". Ducros returned to his homeland, and died in Lausanne in February 1810."

B/ The name "Pietro Ducros" figures on top of page 707 in another dictionary in Italian from 1907 :

Original text in Italian: "Ducros Pietro (1745-1810), svizzero, fu pittore a Roma; m. a Losanna."

Translated: "Ducros Pietro (1745-1810), Swiss, was a painter in Rome; died in Lausanne." Note: Pietro may be Italian for Pierre, its French equivalent...

C/ Search results for "Ducros" on the Oxford Art Online website return the following description:

"Ducros, Pierre, Swiss, 18th – 19th century, male. Born 1748, in Switzerland; died 1810, in Lausanne. Painter, engraver (burin). Among Pierre Ducros' engravings are: "View of Messina after the Earthquake in 1784"; "View of Palermo"; "The Amphitheatre of Syracuse". Auction Records Paris , 6 Feb 1895 : "Beside the Stream" , FRF 100; "Women and Ducks" , FRF 100; "Peasant Next to Two Young Women" ( drawing in colour ) FRF 81 Rome , 19 May 1981 : "View of the Colosseum"; "View of the Campo Vaccino" (1787 , two temperas , 45 × 30 ins/114 × 76 cm and 40¼)"

D/ The name "Pierre Ducros" figures in Bryan's dictionary of painters and engravers from 1903, Vol. II: D-G, p.93 :

"DUCROS, Pierre, a Swiss landscape painter in oil and water-colours, and an engraver, was born in 1748. He lived for a considerable time at Rome, and painted views of that city and its environs. He executed in a masterly manner twenty-four views of Sicily and Malta, besides numerous drawings made during his sojourn in Italy, some of which are of large dimensions. He died at Lausanne in 1810."

The similar subject denominations of several engravings seem more than just suggest A/, B/, C/ and D/ are about the same person..., as expected, although the dates of birth differ: 1745 <> 1748

NEW:

E/ The name "Du Cros" figures in the following monthly revue in French from 1927:

Agassiz, Daisy (1927). Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros : peintre et graveur, 1748-1810 [Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros : painter and engraver, 1748-1810]. Revue Historique Vaudoise (in French). Vol. 35e année. Lausanne: Éditions Spes. p. 13

( E-Periodica - Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros : peintre et graveur 1748-1810 )

Original in French:

" Nous retrouvons Du Cros à Rome vers 1789. Il publia à ce moment, en collaboration avec Pierre de Montagnani, une deuxième série de gravures ; «24 vues de Sicile et de Malte (1) ».

Ceci nous est confirmé par les lettres du Doyen Bridel, qui semble porter un vif intérêt à son célèbre compatriote :

«M. Ducros, d’Yverdon, actuellement à Rome, a publiè des estampes colorièes de différentes vue de cette capitale. Il rend surtout les ruines antiques avec une vérité frappante…

Je l’ai vu tour à tour peindre le Colisée, le Temple de Sibylle, le Panthéon, l’Arc de Titus, de Constantin, le Forum. Il travaille actuellement à une oeuvre de Sicile contenant 24 vues de cette île fameuse (2).

» Rome, le 28 juillet 1789. L.B. »

(1) Les plus connues sont : La Vue de l’intérieur de la ville de Messine après le tremblement de terre de 1784. Vue de Palerme (prise de Montréal). Vue de l’Etna. Vue de l’Amphithéâtre de Syracuse. Vue du Théâtre de Taormina. Vue du Port aux Galères et de l’Arsenal de Malte (seule gravure de Malte connue).

(2) Conservateur suisse, 1813. Châpitre consacré aux beaux-arts."

Translated:

" We find Du Cros in Rome around 1789. At that time he published, in collaboration with Pierre de Montagnani, a second series of engravings; "24 views of Sicily and Malta (1)".

This is confirmed by the letters of Dean Bridel, who seems to have taken a keen interest in his famous compatriot:

"M. Ducros, from Yverdon, at present in Rome, has published coloured prints of various views of this capital. He renders especially the ancient ruins with a striking veracity... I have seen him paint in turn the Colosseum, the Temple of Sibyl, the Pantheon, the Arch of Titus, of Constantine, the Forum. He is currently working on a body of work on Sicily containing 24 views of this famous island (2).

"Rome, 28th July 1789. L.B."

Notes :

(1) The best known are: View of the interior of the city of Messina after the earthquake of 1784. View of Palermo (taken from Montreal). View of Mount Etna. View of the Amphitheatre of Syracuse. View of the Theatre of Taormina. View of the Galleys Port and the Arsenal of Malta (only known engraving of Malta).

(2) Swiss curator, 1813. Chapter devoted to the fine arts. "

NEW:

F/ The names Du Cros and "Montagnani" figure in the following annual revue in Italian from 1956:

Verdone, Mario (1956). Carriera romana dell'acquarellista Du Cros, (in Italian). [The Roman career of watercolourist Du Cros] in Strenna dei Romanisti, Vol. XVII, 1956. Roma: Straderini Editore, pp. 206-212 (pp. 144 - 148 in scan)

• on p. 208, it says :

In Italian: “Si recò tra il 1787 e il 1789 in Sicilia e a Malta.”

Translated: “Between 1787 and 1789 he went to Sicily and Malta.”

• on p. 209, it says :

Original text in Italian:

“Rimasto a Napoli fino al 1807, dopo un nuovo viaggio in Sicilia e a Malta (di queste calate verso il sud resta documento in una collezione di 24 vedute eseguiti col romano Pietro Paolo Montagnani) e aver perso pressapoco tutta la sua fortuna per il fallimento di un banchiere, riparò in patria, riuscendo a salvare la sua collezione di aquarelli e disegni.”

Translated:
“Remaining in Naples until 1807, after a new trip to Sicily and Malta (a document of these trips to the south remains in a collection of 24 views executed with the Roman Pietro Paolo Montagnani) and having lost more or less all of his fortune through the bankruptcy of a banker, he returned home, managing to save his collection of watercolours and drawings.”

Note: the Du Cros in this article is about Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros as is made clear on p. 206 of the book.

NEW:

G/ The name "Peter du Cros" figures in a dictionary in German from 1806 :

Füssli, Johann-Rudolf (1806). Allgemeines Künstlerlexikon, Vol. II : A-E , Zürich : Orell, Füssli & Co., p. 245. Note : biography entry of : "Cros, (Peter du)"

Original text in German and French:
" Cros, (Peter du), gebürtig von Yverdun in der französischen Schweiz. Derselbe ging schon früh in Italien, wo er um 1780, in Gesellschaft von Johann Volpato in Rom, theils nach Gemälden aus dem Vatikan, hauptsächlich aber nach Zeichnungen nach der Natur Prospekte dieser Stadt, besonders von antiken Gebäuden u. s. f. in Blättern herausgab, wovon nur die Umrisse geätzt sind, daβ übrige aber mit Wasserfarben schon und geschmackvoll ausgemalt war. In 1785, dachte er auf ein Werk :

l’Art de graver au pinceau, à la plume et au roseau, et maniere avec diverses teintes, pour imiter les dessins des grands maitres, rehaussés de blanc sur du papier coloré. 

Doch späterhin (wie es scheint erst gegen End des XVIII. Jahrhunderts) nahm er sich vor, gemeinschaftlich mit Paul Montagnani, 24. Prospekte von Sicilien und Malta auf Unterschrift von 4. Zecchinen (von vieren sogar von 6.) vom Stück, ans Licht zu stellen. Ob solches seither geschehen, ob selbst jenes schon 1783. angekündigte Werk von ihnen wirklich erschienen sey, ist uns bey der dürftigen Kunde von ultramontanischer neuester Kunst, ganz unbekannt. Irren wir uns nicht, so haben wir jüngsthin vernommen, daβ du Cros noch im J. 1805. zu Neapel lebte. Meusel Msc. IX. 190. Rost IV. 268. "

Translated:
" Cros, (Peter du), a native of Yverdon in French-speaking Switzerland. He went to Italy at an early age, where, around 1780, he published, in the company of Johann Volpato in Rome, partly after paintings from the Vatican, but mainly after drawings from nature, views of this city, especially of ancient buildings, etc., in sheet form, of which only the outlines are etched, but the rest is already and tastefully painted with watercolours. In 1785, he put his thoughts on a work :

" l'Art de graver au pinceau, à la plume et au roseau, et manière avec diverses teintes, pour imiter les dessins des grands maîtres, rehaussés de blanc sur du papier coloré." 

["the Art of engraving with brush, pen and reed, and manner with various tints, to imitate the drawings of the great masters, highlighted with white on coloured paper."]

But later (as it seems only towards the end of the 18th century), he undertook, in collaboration with Paul Montagnani, to bring to light ^{(i.e. publish)} 24 prints of Sicily and Malta on a subscription basis ^{(or is it on order?)} for 4 zecchini ^{(zecchini or sequins = kind of ducats, gold coins)} apiece (even of 6 zecchini for four of the prints). Whether this has happened since then and even whether the work announced by them as early as 1783 has actually been published is completely unknown to us, given our scant knowledge of the latest art from beyond the mountains. If we are not mistaken, we have recently heard that du Cros was still alive in Naples in 1805. Meusel Msc. IX. 190. Rost IV. 268 "

Note:

• this is an early account of du Cros, still within his lifetime.
• The Christian names have been Germanised.
• the 24 prints may be later than 1785 or, as early as 1783, which is not improbable since Ducros is known to have painted scenes of Messina just after the devastating earthquake in 1783, which cannot have been made during the visit in 1778 with 4 Dutchmen.
• the reference to Meusel Msc. IX. 190 is to be found in the next point H/.

NEW:

H/ The name "Ducros" figures twice in vol. 2 (1781-182) and vol. 5 (1785-87) of a series of Miscellanea of Artistic Content in German  :

Miscellaneen artistischen Inhalts (1779-1787), Vols. 1 to 5, Issues 1 - 30, by Meusel, Johann Georg (1743-1820); Erfurt : Verlag der Keyserschen Buchhandlung

Original text in German:
Ref: Band 2, Heft IX (1781), 10. Vermischte Nachrichten, p. 190 :

“ Bern, Hr. Ducros von Yverdün, welcher sich in Rom viel Ehre macht, arbeitet, gemeinschaftlch mit Hrn. Volpati, an einer Sammlung von gemälten Römischen Prospecten, wovon bereits 12 Stücke, in gleichem Format, wie die "Schule von Athen", und 12 in halber Gröβe, fertig sind. Hr. Ducros gravirt Kupferplatten, welche nur die Umrisse enhalten ; aber unter seiner sowol, als des Hrn. Volpati Aussicht , werden dieselben von jungen Künstlern so ausgemalhlt, daβ sie von Originalzeichnungen kaum zu unterscheiden sind. Diese Prospekte finden ungemeinen Beyfall, man bezahlt das Stück von den gröβern mit 4 Zechinen, von den kleinern mit 2. “

Translated:
Ref. : Vol. 2, Issue IX (1781), Chap. 10. Miscellaneous News, p. 190 :

" Bern, Mr. Ducros of Yverdon, who is enjoying much honour in Rome, is working, together with Mr. Volpati [sic], on a collection of painted Roman views, of which 12 pieces, in the same format, as the "School of Athens", and 12 in half size, are already finished. Mr. Ducros engraves the copper plates, which contain only the outlines; but under his, as well as Mr. Volpati's, supervision, they are painted by young artists in such a way that they can hardly be distinguished from the original drawings. These views are exceptionally well received, the larger ones being paid for at 4 sequins, the smaller ones at 2. “

NOTES:

• In the same volume 2, but in Issue X, Chap.7. Miscellaneous News, p. 250, a year later, in 1782, most of the above description is repeated, except, now, the correctly spelled name of Volpato is used.
• the format of "The School of Athens" by Giovanni Volpato is : 580mm (H) × 757mm (W), as the engraving held at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam makes clear; or, the dimensions given for the 1779 engraving held at the Detroit Institute of Arts :
  

1. Plate: 22 3/8 × 29 1/4 inches (56.8 × 74.3 cm)
   
2. Sheet: 30 3/4 × 42 3/4 inches (78.1 × 108.6 cm)
   

And from Volume 5:

Original text in German:

Ref. : Band 5, Heft 28 (1786), 10. Vermischte Nachrichten, p. 246 :

“ Rom, den 2ten Jan. 1786. ...

Der Landschaftmaler Ducros, der in Gesellschaft mit Volpato die "Aussichten von Rom" in Farben herausgegeben hat, arbeitet an einem Werke, in dem er alle seine Entdeckungen und Kentnisse in der Art mit dem Pinsel in Kupfer zu ätzen, bekannt machen wird. Er wird auch die Kunst mit der Feder oder Rohr in Kupfer zu ätzen, desgleichen die Kunst in verschiedenen Tinten zu ätzen, um die Zeichnungen nachzumachen hinzufügen. “

Translated:

Ref. : Vol. 5, Issue 28 (1786), Chap. 10. Miscellaneous News, p. 246 :

“ Rome, 2 Jan. 1786. ...

The landscape painter Ducros, who in company with Volpato has published the "Views of Rome" in colour, is working on a (body of) work in which he will disclose all his discoveries and knowledge in the art of copper etching with a brush. He will also add the art of copper etching with pen or reed, as well as the art of etching in various inks to imitate the drawings. "

NOTE: In volumes 2 nor 5 Ducros is not given any Christian name.

I/ (to be continued)

Discussion:

Finding firm evidence, still available nowadays, about Pietro Ducros, Swiss-Italian artist (died in February 1810 in Lausanne), or his actual physical works signed by or attributed to him in major collections, proves extremely elusive for the moment!

Contrary to Louis (or Abraham-Louis-Rodoplphe) Ducros or Du Cros, the names of Pierre (or Pietro) Ducros return no search results on specialised Swiss databases, such as:

• the Swiss Institute for Art Research (SIK-ISEA) database (https://recherche.sik-isea.ch/)
• the site Lumières.Lausanne (https://lumieres.unil.ch/fiches/), a research platform of the University of Lausanne, dedicated to the rich cultural and intellectual past of French-speaking Switzerland during the Age of Enlightenment. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shooting4truth (talk • contribs) 16:33, 15 April 2023 (UTC)

In the major European and American museums, galleries and auction houses there's virtually no prints to be found online for Pietro (or Pierre), while there is a plethora of works out there by Louis or A-L-R Ducros.

I have a theory that there may have been a misnomer at a certain point of time of his original French 1st name by (later?) Italian and other sources...

Isn't it peculiar indeed that another Swiss artist, going by the name of Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe aka Louis Ducros (whose life and works have been extensively researched in 1927 by Mlle. Daisy Agassiz), was born only 3 years later (or the same year depending on other sources), in 1748, and died on 18 February 1810 in Lausanne, (i.e. the same month, year and location) with an interpellingly similar course of life mostly spent in Italy, doing a similar type of job, at the same time, with the same engravers (e.g. Volpato)?

Let's not forget that Pietro Ducros is rumoured to have produced 24 prints of Sicily and Malta (date unclear), while Louis, having been at least twice in his life for an extended period in Sicily and Malta, has produced a remarkably large portfolio of watercolours and prints, all nicely kept at the great art institutions of today. Both are said to have made prints showing Rome and its surroundings with Volpato, who is known to have worked with Louis from c.1779 till c. 1792, with signed prints as proof. This series may have been published by a Montagnani, as suggested by point E/.

From Volpato and Pietro Ducros I've been unlucky enough to find not a single signed one till now... Any help out there?

However, I stumbled on a Pinterest image saying : << "Veduta di Messina dopo il terremoto del 1783" di Abraham Louis Rodolphe Ducros, 1789 >>:

(https://www.pinterest.com/pin/messina-dipinti-e-stampe--782711610219963389/), but cannot see where it came from, nor if the description is accurate. If the caption is correct, it cannot have come from the series of 1778, now held at the Rijksmuseum in Amsterdam, as it translates as "View of Messina after the earthquake of 1783".

The newly added Point E/ adds a new perspective since :

• it cites Pierre de Montagnani, not Paolo Montagnari as under A/. This is subject matter for another debate though for which I refer to the Talk page of Pietro Paulo Montagnani :

Is Paolo Montagnari in fact (Pietro) Paolo Montagnani(-Mirabili) ?(https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Talk:Pietro_Paulo_Montagnani#Is_Paolo_Montagnari_in_fact_%28Pietro%29_Paolo_Montagnani%28-Mirabili%29_%3F)

after all, Pierre is French for Pietro...

• it cites almost verbatim a number of namesake views of Sicily and Malta as points A/ and C/ partially do, on a total of 24 (as in A/ & D/), except the series of articles are about Adolphe-Louis-Rodolphe Ducros, and NOT Pietro Ducros, in what can be assessed as an in-depth research effort by Mlle. Agassiz
• it, for the first time, specifies 1789 as the likely date of the series of 24 views of Sicily (even though no mention of Malta...), in a verifiable source, which the Pinterest image above also says in its caption

The new Point F/ adds that :

• a visit to Sicily and Malta took place between 1787 and 1789

Shooting4truth

References

Sources

• Agassiz, Daisy (1927). Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros : peintre et graveur, 1748-1810 [Abraham-Louis-Rodolphe Du Cros : painter and engraver, 1748-1810]. Revue Historique Vaudoise (in French). Vol. 35e année. Lausanne: Éditions Spes. pp. 3–14, 33–40, 65–76, 97–104, 128–138.

Question:

What are the odds of these two Swiss painters-engravers, being in Italy over the same long period of time, reputedly having both worked with the same artists and publishers, e.g. Giovanni Volpato & PP Montagnani, being two different people altogether? Not a lot, I'd say...

The perspective from point E/ above offers clear additional arguments for this theory in my opinion.

Any thoughts?

Thanks, Shooting4truth (talk) 22:44, 10 April 2023 (UTC)