Talk:Piano Quintet (Schumann)

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 18 January 2022 and 12 May 2022. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ageclap (article contribs).

Expansion ideas

Page about a work like this could use it, I should think.

Beginning thoughts about how to add to the page's description section: the scherzo's somewhat rondo-like form with two different trios- typical for Schumann; the quotation of one of those trios in the finale (I'll have to check but I'm fairly sure of that part...), and some more about the finale's overall shape; the form of the funeral march (and the march's history in particular could be given at greater length).

Also, maybe some images of main themes of each movement?

(And was Leipzigerisch a reference to Bach or to the conservatives who inhabited Leipzig in Liszt's day, especially after Mendelssohn, though at the time he spoke poorly of Mendelssohn too- which precipitated the worst of that argument, according to Alan Walker's account? Liszt spent quite a bit of time on Bach's music, and seems to have thought quite well of it.)Schissel | Sound the Note! 17:48, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

Wash Schumann the first?

MCoverdale has revised the article to say that the piano quintet was a well-established form by the time Schumann wrote his. According to the source quoted in the article, Schumann was the first to use this form.

MCoverdale, can you please add a source for your contention? Thanks. --Ravpapa (talk) 16:03, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Later: Cancel. Sorry, I misread your edit. I thought you had written that the piano quintet was well established by 1842. You didn't write that, you wrote that the string quartet was well established. My mistake. --Ravpapa (talk) 16:22, 11 February 2011 (UTC)

Hi Ravpapa, perhaps I can edit it to make it even clearer that I am talking about the SQ. As for Schumann writing the first piano quintet for piano and string quartet, actually the first I have been able to track down is from 1799 by an obscure Czech composer (I've written on this in the Piano quintet article) but there is little doubt that Schumann established it as a major form, even if he didn't invent it. mcoverdale (talk) 15:36, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Not necessary. I must have been half asleep when I read your edit - it is perfectly clear and it was my reading that was blurry.

Actually, I believe that Boccherini's piano quintets preceded Dussek's (http://imslp.org/wiki/6_Piano_Quintets,_G.413-418_%28Op.57%29_%28Boccherini,_Luigi%29). But Boccherini's quintets (and, I am guessing, Dussek's as well - I can't find a score for them) are not anything like Schumann's. There is no real interplay between the quartet and the keyboard (which, actually, might have been a cembalo in Boccherini's thought), the first violin doubling the right hand, the cello the bass line, almost throughout. So I think it is fair to say that Schumann invented the form, at least as we know it today. --Ravpapa (talk) 15:59, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

Ravpapa, thanks for pointing that out. I had mistakenly believed Boccherini's quintets were along the Schubert model (i.e. string trio & double bass). I'll adjust this here and in the piano quintet article as soon as I get a chance. Thanks for taking the time to comment on my edits. mcoverdale (talk) 16:42, 27 February 2011 (UTC)

... and more of the same

The article now says that "Prior to Schumann, piano quintets were ordinarily composed for keyboard, violin, viola, cello, and doublebass, with the latter providing basso continuo rather than being an independent voice." I think this is not quite right. First of all, Schubert's and Hummel's quintets were the only ones in this form - Schubert's patron, Sylvester Paumgartner, commissioned the work because he was so taken with Hummel's unique instrumentation. Second, in Schubert's quintet, the double bass is not a mere basso continuo - on the contrary, it has a number of important solos, the most notable being in the variation movement.

If you agree, we should probably fix it. Ravpapa (talk) 13:15, 3 June 2013 (UTC)

Hi Ravpapa, forgive my belated reply. I have not visited this talk page in a while. I do agree with your qualification--I think I have oversimplified here--and will make an adjustment. mcoverdale (talk) 01:48, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

In fact, this is crazy and has been here for years. --Leonardo T. Oliveira (talk) 21:45, 13 May 2020 (UTC)

Schubert's "Trout" and Hummel's two piano quintets are not at all the only examples of this instrumentation, as you can see if you visit Piano quintet. Ries's piano quintet from 1817 and Jan Ladislav Dussek's from 1799 are written for piano, violin, viola, cello, and bass - and both preceded Schubert's (1819) and one of Hummel's (1802 and 1816) -- Dussek's preceded all three. Other quintets for that instrumentation were composed by Johann Baptist Cramer (1825, 1832), Henri Jean Rigel (1826), Johann Peter Pixis (ca.1827), Franz Limmer (1832), Louise Farrenc (1839, 1840), and George Onslow. Paumgartner may have thought the instrumentation unique, but it wasn't quite that. mcoverdale (talk) 19:43, 1 March 2024 (UTC)

1829 quartet

I'm given to understand that the 1829 piano quartet I cited as an example of a (possibly the only) chamber work by Schumann completed before 1841 may not be right; it may not have been completed by Schumann after all but rather reconstructed by Böttcher for Heinrichs. Verlag publication in 1979... don't know, though. Schissel | Sound the Note! 19:03, 2 April 2014 (UTC)

Funeral march

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An anonymous editor has twice removed the word "funeral march" from the description of the slow movement. He has justified this by saying that the tempo marking on the movement only mentions "marcia" and does not mention funeral. However, the form is unquestionably that of a Funeral March and not of, for example, a military march, and it is universally referred to in the literature as a funeral march. When I restored the term funeral march to the article, I added a reference, but the anonymous editor removed it again. I do not want to edit war with this editor, so I am referring to the hive mind to adjudicate the matter. I will abstain from editing for a few days while responses gather here like bees to a honeypot.

--Ravpapa (talk) 13:21, 28 January 2022 (UTC)

• Go with the sources, and include "funeral". Johnbod (talk) 05:12, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

---

Okay. --Ravpapa (talk) 06:01, 23 February 2022 (UTC)

Introduction greeting

Hi, I'm Ageclap and I will be revising this article as part of my class on chamber music literature this spring. So far I will just be adding new information that I find and maybe editing stuff that I find with you all of course. I look forward to your feedback on my revisions! Ageclap (talk) 05:55, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Welcome aboard. Looking forward to your edits. Ravpapa (talk) 16:31, 3 March 2022 (UTC)

Welcome. You might find some of the sources used at Piano Quartet (Schumann) useful. intforce (talk) 17:39, 3 March 2022 (UTC)