Talk:Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb

Did you know nomination

The following is an archived discussion of the DYK nomination of the article below. Please do not modify this page. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page (such as this nomination's talk page, the article's talk page or Wikipedia talk:Did you know), unless there is consensus to re-open the discussion at this page. No further edits should be made to this page.

The result was: promoted by AirshipJungleman29 (talk) 20:24, 26 August 2023 (UTC)

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• Comment or view
• Article history

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• ... that the Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb yielded over 8,000 terracotta figurines, providing insights into the religious practices of the local Phoenician population?
  Source:

  • Oggiano, Ida (2013). Aliquot, Julien; Bonnet, Corinne (eds.). "Le sanctuaire de Kharayeb et l'évolution de l'imagerie phénicienne dans l'arrière-pays de Tyr". Topoi (Supplément 13 La Phénicie hellénistique - Actes du colloque international de Toulouse): 243.
  • ALT1: ... that during the Hellenistic period, Greek themes and deities like Aphrodite and Hermes were introduced in the Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb's terracotta figurines?
    Source:

    • Oggiano, Ida (2013). Aliquot, Julien; Bonnet, Corinne (eds.). "Le sanctuaire de Kharayeb et l'évolution de l'imagerie phénicienne dans l'arrière-pays de Tyr". Topoi (Supplément 13 La Phénicie hellénistique - Actes du colloque international de Toulouse): 243–244.
  • ALT2: ... that the Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb's deity remains unidentified due to the absence of specific god names in the unearthed inscriptions?
    Source:

    • Oggiano, Ida (2018). Collecting disiecta membra: What did the cult place of Kharayeb look like?. Cercando con zelo di conoscere la storia fenicia. Atti della giornata di studio dedicata a Sergio Ribichini ( a cura di Giuseppe Garbati). Rome: Consiglio Nazionale delle RicercheIstituto di Studi sul Mediterraneo Antico. Page: 33
  • ALT3: ... that the Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb was established in the 6th century BC when Phoenicia experienced economic growth, and rural agricultural centers were established to optimize resources?
    Source:

    • Elayi, Josette (1980). "The Phoenician Cities in the Persian Period". Journal of the Ancient Near Eastern Society. 12 (1): 16.
    • Oggiano, Ida (2013). Aliquot, Julien; Bonnet, Corinne (eds.). "Le sanctuaire de Kharayeb et l'évolution de l'imagerie phénicienne dans l'arrière-pays de Tyr". Topoi (Supplément 13 La Phénicie hellénistique - Actes du colloque international de Toulouse): 241

Reviewed: Tylocephale

Created by Elias Ziade (talk). Self-nominated at 18:14, 23 July 2023 (UTC). Post-promotion hook changes for this nom will be logged at Template talk:Did you know nominations/Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb; consider watching this nomination, if it is successful, until the hook appears on the Main Page.

• I'm really impressed with the quality of this article and its sourcing. It was nominated in time, is clearly long enough, and is an exemplary piece of work in terms of neutral and clear style. Earwig gives a high copyright violation score, but on inspection, the reused text consists of citation titles and phrases that describe places and objects. I'm satisfied this article is original text.

The original hook is my favourite. ALT2 is also interesting and succinct: the others are a bit too grammatically convoluted. The original hook's 8,000 figurines and religious purpose is stated in the article with an appropriate inline source, and the hook is properly formatted and short enough. QPQ done. This is good to go. MartinPoulter (talk) 15:15, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 00:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Hey, I'll take this one. FunkMonk (talk) 00:35, 6 August 2023 (UTC)
• Looks like Beirut is WP:duplinked in close succession.
• More terms and names could probably be linked in image captions.
• "Location of Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb" Here and other places I think you'd need "the" in front of "Phoenician sanctuary of Kharayeb".
• First paragraph under "Artifacts and finds" needs a citation.
• It's funny, I took a photo of this[1] exact exhibit last time I was in Beirut airport. My angle[2] shows a bit more of what's at the back, perhaps it would be an improvement?
• I also took this photo[3] at the airport, but didn't get the info about it. Do you know what it is, so I can upload it to Commons? Doesn't seem like there are other photos of it in the category there.[4]

Hey buddy thanks for the above. I have addressed the issues you noted. Please share any images you have! The mosaic is from a Christian basilica in Chhim, it depicts antelopes and a chalice. I don't know the exact dating but if you decide to upload it I can look it up.el.ziade (talkallam) 07:38, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

Cool, here is the better view of the figures[5], and here is the mosaic[6], feel free to change the image descriptions if you have corrections. And here's a lion statue from the airport I had already uploaded:[7] FunkMonk (talk) 21:04, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Kharayeb should be linked at first mention in the intro and article body, and first image caption.

I see that it is linked first under the location section, and when reading the article, I wonder why that's not the first section of the article? When reading an article like this, the first thing I want to know as part ofthe background is where it is located. Now I have to read through three sections before I find out. FunkMonk (talk) 21:04, 6 August 2023 (UTC)

• Terms like Phoenician, Terracotta, Tyre, and Hellenestic could also be linked in image captions.
• "Archaeological excavation in Kharayeb" Link archaeology in Lebanon?
• Ottoman era, Persian period, Phoenicia, Tyre, palmette, terracotta, fellahin, Anatolia, astragalus plant, and any other relevant terms could also be linked in the article.
• "The earliest signs of agricultural use in historical periods" Locally or anywhere?
• "No archaeological evidence dating from later than the end of the Hellenistic period has been uncovered" Add "in the area/locality"?
• "The town of Kharayeb sits on the hills overlooking the Mediterranean, at a short distance north of the Leontes River, 77 km (48 mi) south of Beirut." Probably good to add "Lebanon" to the end of the sentence, as you don't state the country outside the intro.
• "The slab was acquired by treasure hunter Alphonse Durighello" State nationality of him and any other persons mentioned for context? (*)
• "reported the discovery as being from the town of "Djamdjîne" ." Isn't this just another transliteration of Jemjim? Now it reads as if it's an alternate name. Anyhow, there is space before the period.
• " This name derives from the practice of collecting "beads" unearthed on the premises" A bit unclear now whether these were old artifacts they found. (**)
• "t during the Iron Age II" What is Iron Age II? Could there be given some explanation as to how it differs from the general Iron Age mentioned in the article?(***)
• "A temple was initially built during the Iron Age II/Persian period, but remains have not survived" How do we know it existed, then? From the earlier artifacts found? Could be stated explicitly. (****)
• Very short paragraphs/isolated sentences are usually discouraged, maybe the one that begins the "Description" section can be merged with the subsequent paragraph?
• You convert some measurements, but not for example " discovered 20 meters northwest", should be added to all.
• "employing a typical header against stretcher ashlar construction technique" I think you need "the" in front of "stretcher".
• "Greek culture and language was spread as far as modern-day India, resulting in a fusion of ancient Greek and local cultures" Perhaps explain if this is true in regard to Greek religion as well, or if local religions were fused with Greek or retained, or replaced? I see you say local customs were kept in the countryside, but does that mean it was completely replaced in the urban areas? (^)
• "in Phoenicia (pictured)" I'm not sure where I saw it, but I think such internal pointers in an article are discouraged, it's a bit redundant anyway.
• "In the Hellenistic period, heavy influx" Should probably have "a" in front of "heavy influx".
• "women with their hands placed on their breasts" I've come across that in many old sculptures, does that symbol have a name or article that could be linked? Because I wonder what it means. (^^)
• "The number figurines of deities" Missing "of" after number. But then it will be double "of". Perhaps say "the number of figurines depicting deities" or similar.
• You write both worshippers and worshipers. I believe this may be connected to what variety of English you use, but you should stick to one. Seems from "archaeological" that it should be UK English.
• "Chéhab translated the inscription in his first excavation report as "Because he heard the word of his servants".[51] In 1955, he revised" Give date for the first translation also?
• "from the Kharayeb sanctuary, from the collection" Instead of double "from", could maybe say "in the collection" second time?
• "Maruice Chéhab proposed" Not necessary no write full names again after first mention.
• Various theories presented under "Dedication and function" could have dates mentioned for context together with the names of the authors. Also elsewhere in the article were theories are proposed.
• "indicating that cultic activity at the sanctuary ceased, after a long period of prosperity and intensive use, in the first century BC." Do we know why, and if it was replaced? (^^^)

• Thanks for the review! I am still at it. A few comments (*) Durighello was an Ottoman resident of Sidon. (**) the beads were ancient, I added a clarification. (***) Iron age I and II dates added to explanatory table. (****) I believe that the passage is clear enough for general readers. Only cultic statues have survived from the earlier temple.

• (^) Hellenistic religious syncretism was a thing but I don't want to delve into details here. I will formulate something short. (^^) Older scholars allude to Dea Gravida / Dea Tyria Gravida when talking about the statuettes of women holding their breasts, especially in the context of Tyre and the Southern Levant. HOWEVER modern researchers are reluctant to associate the sculptures with images of deities and the assumption that the images presented Astarte/Isis or other deities is now criticized. The images are thought to present the individuals offering or related to the votive offering. I do not like to encourage older assumptions that are not corroborated by ancient writings, therefore I am reluctant to mention Dea Gravida. (^^^) Activity ceased around the time of the Roman conquest, we know for sure that pagan worship centers were systematically shut down during the early ages of Christian influence in the region (see Temple of Eshmun and Roman temple of Bziza). I have not found any sources talking about the Tyre area, I can still search but I will not present any generic reasons that apply to other sites without having sources. el.ziade (talkallam) 12:46, 9 August 2023 (UTC)

Looks like everything has been addressed well, so will promote now. FunkMonk (talk) 21:48, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Broken link

@Elias Ziade: The Academia.edu link for Oggiano, Ida (2012). "Terracotta figurines from Kharayeb (Tyre)" is giving a 404 error for me. Not something that should affect either the DYK review or GA review, but if you have an alternative link that would be beneficial. Cheers, MartinPoulter (talk) 15:18, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

@MartinPoulter Thank you for pointing it out! I checked the link and it works fine from my side so I archived it. Can you please try the archive link? el.ziade (talkallam) 17:41, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

@MartinPoulter I just read your DYK review. Thank you for your nice words. el.ziade (talkallam) 18:03, 11 August 2023 (UTC)

Thanks for providing the archived link, which works for me. I get a 404 from the academia.edu link, but that's always been a bit of an odd site. No problem about the review; you've done seriously good work. MartinPoulter (talk) 18:44, 11 August 2023 (UTC)