Talk:Phantom limb

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comment 2005

If someone could make reference to the Mirror box in alleviating this issue it would help to bring both articles up to par. --Hooperbloob 20:52, 19 Jun 2005 (UTC)

central nervous system disorder?

I read somewhere a while ago that some researcher were pursuing the idea that phantom limb is really caused by changes in the brain after amputation. when sensation from the former limb is lost, the brain rewires itself in some way, and phantom limb is the result, the brain perhaps trying in some way to 'replace' the ghost or gap in its sensory input. This article also said that some forms of tinnitus are essentialy a form of phantom limb, because hearing damage due to noise exposure damages the sound receptors (cilia) in the inner ear; the brain rewires itself in the absence of the cilia's input, and the ringing in the ears is the end result. Please, someone who knows more should address this if accurate. Sorry I can't cite the source. glasperlenspiel 00:24, 18 January 2006 (UTC)

Hi everyone, I have been editing the phantom limb page, and the associated mirror box page. I think that the new versions are at least correct enough that they should inspire more people to come and edit and improve upon them. There's a great deal of historical work that could be included here. One of the next things that I will do is add links to the pdfs of the articles cited (available on Ramachandran's website) for those who are interested in pursing this more Edhubbard 16:15, 6 August 2006 (UTC)

Castration?

Somebody told me that post-op transsexuals and men who have been castrated often have phantom sensations where their genitalia used to be. Is that true, or was someone just trying to shock me? Thanks! --71.63.78.183 03:34, 11 June 2007 (UTC)

As an FTM (Female To Male Transgender) I can confirm that yes, transsexuals can often feel phantom limb. It takes the form of feeling your penis in some shape or form, though one has never actually been there. It varies from man to man as to levels of sensation, and whether it's permanent or occasional. I certainly wouldn't be surprised if castrated men and MTF (Male To Female Transgender) people felt similar sensations around where their penis once was. 2.97.40.28 (talk) 15:24, 19 June 2012 (UTC)

Weight i.e gravity acting on phantom (missing) limb.

I have searched google, yahoo to find whether the amputees feel weight of phantom limb. I have used all possible keywords and I have used advance search options to search exact phrase like weight of phantom limb, weight of missing limb, weight of phantom hand, weight of phantom leg, gravity acting on phantom limb etc.

Only the phrase weight of missing limb yields some results and those are my own posts on usenet.

The average reader may 'assume' that as amputees feel pains, touch, cold etc in phantom limb, they must be feeling 'weight of phantom limb'. This is obvious because in everyday life we feel weight of real hand alongwith pains, touch, cold, heat etc.

But research on phantom limb talks only about things like pains, touch in phantom limb. The astronaut does also feel such senses in space but he does not feel weight of hand like we do on earth.

The question is - if the limb of astronaut is amputed in space, will he feel exactly same way the amputees on earth? Will he feel weight of his amputed limb in space?

I think these questions are important for understanding neuroscience and our universe. Hence I have added three sentences in article 'phantom limb'. If this problem is addressed in some scientific paper or in some reliable source, I would request you to cite the source so that average reader gets correct information about phantom limb syndrome.

Thanks.

neo 15:32, 30 August 2007 (UTC)

I'm not sure if this helps, but people have lost their balance when the expected weight of a missing limb was not there. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrInitialMan (talk • contribs) 03:52, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Clarification required regarding 'weight of phantom limb'.

It is again to make clear the question whether amputees feel weight of missing limb.

1. We, on earth, do feel weight of real hand or leg alongwith pains, touch, cold etc.

2. Astronauts in space do NOT feel weight of real hand or leg but they do feel pains, touch, cold etc.

Current research talk about only phantom pains but is silent about phantom gravity acting on phantom mass of phantom limb so that amputees feel phantom weight.

Average reader may 'assume' that amputee on earth do feel weight of phantom limb and amputed astronaut in space do not feel weight of phantom limb. But this is just assumption. As a reader, I want scientific evidence.

And I am not asking irrelevent information. Bang your leg on wall. You will feel pains. But at the same time you also feel weight of leg.

And as written earlier, I have searched whole internet. I think, it is justified to make it clear to reader that current research is silent on this subject. -Preceding unsigned comment added by Neo. (talk * contribs) 03:26, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

The point is one of giving undue weight to this question. I have again reverted the bold-face stand-alone line. This is not so incredibly important that it deseves a whole line to itself in bold. The parenthetical comment is appropriate, but even that might not be correct. I remember that Ramachandran talks about a congenital phantom limb patient who felt her arms swinging in his book (i.e., the weight of her non-existant limbs). I'll have to look up the exact page number before I add it, but your failure to find something on the web does not mean that scientific research is silent on this topic. It just means that it isn't there on the web. Edhubbard 16:54, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

On page 41 of Phantoms in the Brain Ramachandran talks about a woman (Mirabelle, not her real name) who reports being born with phantom limbs which are too short. She also notes that the arms hang straight down, and do not swing when she walks, although they do gesticuate when she talks. Similarly, on page 42, he recounts the case of John McGrath, who reports that his missing arm will attempt to balance him, for example, when he plays tennis. "When I play tennis," he said, "my phantom will do what it's supposed to do. It'll want to throw the ball up when I serve or it will try to give me balance in a hard shot." These passages suggest that there is a feeling of weight, or at least mass, in the phantom limb. I think that your question also raises another question, which is, exactly what is our sense of weight. Is it just gravity, or is it a combination of mass (which astronauts in space can feel. Things are still massive, and easier or harder to accelerate and decelerate in space) and gravity... and how is that sensed? Proprioception, through cutaneous receptors? Through muscle fibers? I think you'll have to be much clearer about exactly what it is that you would like to know, and perhaps you need to start looking at better sources than the web. Edhubbard 17:09, 31 August 2007 (UTC)

You have kept my parenthetical comment '(But whether they feel weight of phantom limb while gesticulating is unclear)'. I think this single line is enough to make clear what I want to point out.

You claim that you were student of Dr Ramachandran and even you can't find whether the amputees feel weight of missing limb on web or in the books, then it is clear that current research is silent on this subject.

You have quoted some lines and you say that those lines 'suggest' that 'that there is a feeling of weight, or at least mass, in the phantom limb'.

In science we do not go by suggestions and assumptions. There is difference of world between feeling weight(gravity) and feeling mass.

I graduated in science and my interest is in physics. I am just curious how can human brain sense gravity acting on mass which is missing. If brain can create phantom mass, phantom gravity, phantom sensation of one missing hand, then it can also create phantom mass, phantom gravity, phantom sensations in two missing hand, two missing legs and may be whole missing body which is cut off from throat (if we manage to keep blood supply, energy to brain so that brain remain 'alive').

If my parenthetical comment i.e '(But whether they feel weight of phantom limb while gesticulating is unclear)'

remain there, I would like to end this subject.

Thanks.

neo 03:17, 1 September 2007 (UTC)

Could it be that the brain is sensing nothing, and that it is just contextual memory while this person plays tennis? There are too many factors at play here. In science, we are also specific about the questions we ask. (Toniolio (talk) 14:48, 6 April 2009 (UTC))

Phantom hearing/"Ear music syndrome?"

I didn't add this to the article, because it would be original/hearsay, but a person who works with the deaf told me recently that there was such a thing called "Ear music," where one heard sounds that weren't there ina very low form, if one had a hearing impairment. No, it isn't hypnagogia, I asked specifically and she said it was different. I'd never heard of it for ears (I also hadn't heard of "phantom eye" till I came here) but if someone can find some documentation, it would be good to include. I couldn't find any under "ear music," but I'll admit I might have remembered the term sheused wrong.209.244.30.221 12:49, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Oliver Sacks discusses this phenomenon in his book Musicophilia: Tales of Music and the Brain. I think he does call it ear music. I don't think it's limited to deaf people though, it occurs in hearing people too. It's sort of like an auditory hallucination, except hallucination has bad connotations and this isn't anything bad like that. While I'm writing, does anyone else have phantom tooth pain? I have it where a wisdom tooth was that had a particularly bad extraction. 79.68.124.177 (talk) 23:09, 27 June 2008 (UTC)

I have a question: People who have lost their sense of sight still experience sight occasionally. People who once could hear occasionally experience sound. Why might these phenomena occur? Thank you in advance, johanna orchid — Preceding unsigned comment added by Johanna orchid (talk • contribs) 16:22, 16 April 2012 (UTC)

Citations at the top of the article don't look right

They seem to be edited strangely, looking like hyperlinks to other articles and not to citations at the bottom of the page. I don't know the right way to format it myself, but I just thought I should note that it looks wrong. If it's been fixed, of course delete this section. Gregory j 06:09, 12 November 2007 (UTC)

On other forms of Phantom limbs

I mentioned some people having phantom body parts that are not a part of the human anatomy (phantom tails, phantom wings, etc.). What do I do, should the proper reference to such a phenomenon be in a thread on a forum?

Mr. Initial Man (talk) 06:55, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

Hi Mr IM, I removed your addition because it was unreferenced, and I know of no references in the scientific literature that could substantiate such a claim. If you have reliable sources that suggest that such people report such experiences, you could put it back in, with the references. If you're having any problems formatting the references, or just want feedback on the phrasing, you can put it here on the discussion page, and we can work on it together. Edhubbard (talk) 08:30, 19 December 2007 (UTC)

It is not in any scientific literature that I know of; there was a discussion on a forum on "phantom tail syndrome", though. Mr. Initial Man (talk) 03:18, 20 December 2007 (UTC)

Hmmm... if you could track down a link, or some other way to verify that some people at least report it, it *might* make it into the article, even if it is not in the peer-reviewed literature. Ideally, we would like to have something from the scientific literature, but we can assess the quality of the reference and go from there. No guarantees, but let's at least try. Edhubbard (talk) 14:41, 21 December 2007 (UTC)

I included my addition once again, with the required link. Mr. Initial Man (talk) —Preceding comment was added at 11:13, 28 December 2007 (UTC)

To whoever else removed my addition about other body parts: Please remember that "Goddamn [Insert group here]" does not constitute a valid intellectual argument. Mr. Ed Hubbard was right to remove an unreferenced bit of information; there is something that is close to a reference on the article now. However, just because a phenomenon is peculiar to certain groups (therianthropes and furries in this case) does not mean it is not genuine. Mr. Initial Man (talk) 03:49, 21 January 2008 (UTC)

Nontheless, a random forum thread/post is not a valid, reputable source. Should you come up with one, Then I'll leave it be. Until then, it has no place in the article. 24.168.4.183 (talk) 20:22, 25 February 2008 (UTC)

I'll see if I can come up with something. But I've often noticed "I've never heard of it" or "I've never seen any sources" is often used as an excuse to shut down any first-hand testimony on a topic. —Preceding unsigned comment added by MrInitialMan (talk • contribs) 06:50, 17 March 2008 (UTC)

Relationship with "Pins and Needles"?

I have been trying to find out more about this all day today...

Last night, I woke up to find I had fallen asleep on my right arm particularly badly, and the whole limb was paralyzed and sensationless right up to my solder. I got up to walk around, and suddenly was hit with the most painful experience I have in recent memory, it felt as if somebody was twisting my arm counter clockwise to near-breaking point.

With my left hand I attempted to pick up and shake around my paralyzed right limb but the pain kept on going. I was almost about to scream until the twisting sensation subsided and was gradually replaced with a particularly strong case of 'pins and needles' which I more commonly associate with this kind of limb paralysis. After about two minutes, the pins and needles came to an abrupt stop and the twisting sensation resumed, but only for a couple of seconds before it went away and was again replaced with very mild pins and needles. Over the next few minutes I gradually regained control of the limb.

All in all it is hard to say how long this whole ordeal took, but the worst part of the phantom pain lasted probably around 30 seconds to a minute. Is this common to limb paralysis through circulation loss? It sure scared the hell out of me to think people might have to put up with this on a regular basis, for me the experience was near suicide-inducing in its agony, but luckily it was over before it really started.

Hayaku (talk) 05:56, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Section on Neurological Basis should include the work of Ronald Melzack

This section appears to have been written by editors who are not familiar with the history of research on phantom limbs. In particular there needs to be a discussion of the work of Ronald Melzack. In 1989 he published a seminal article on phantom limbs in which he clearly laid out a theory that phantom limb pain was caused by neural events in the brain. What he referred to as the neuro-matrix. (Phantom Limbs, The Self, And The Brain, D.O. Hebb Memorial Lecture, 1989 [1]) This section needs to include a discussion of his work. Neurorel (talk) 20:08, 3 August 2011 (UTC)Neurorel

Please Stop The Reversions. There is a reference for the material added.

The history of phantom limb research during the past twenty years is complex.The material I added to cover this history is referenced in the article I cited. Jack Tsao does a good job of giving a summary of the research history in this area. Ramachanran's work plays a relatively minor role in this area of research. He did popularize the topic in this book, Phantoms In The Brain, but he is not a leading researcher in phantom limb pain or phantom limb sensation. He does not do clinical research. His initial theory that phatom limb pain is caused by cortical reorganization is a theory that applies to rare exceptions rather than the general case. However, as Jack Taso points out the Five Factor theory that was advanced by Ramachanran is fairly powerful. However this is not an aricle about Ramachandran's work on phantom limbs. It is an article that needs to look at the subject more broadly. And, yes, it needs more material and more references. Hopefully other editors can help expand the article.Neurorel (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2011 (UTC)Neurorel

Until you provide references for your additions, I will continue to revert. See WP:RS and especially in this case WP:MEDRS. Edhubbard (talk) 19:58, 10 August 2011 (UTC)

Ok, I've spent about an hour working on integrating your edits into the existing article, provide additional verifiable citations, and also changing the reference format throughout the article to use the cite:php format. One important point that was muddled in your edits are the accounts of phantom limb sensations and phantom limb pain. I've tried to clarify that distinction, and made clearer that the more complex theories (e.g., the five factor model) are intended to account for PLP more broadly, not just phantom limb sensations by adding the appropriate subheading. Also, removing Ramachandran's theory of phantom limb sensations, but including Herta Flor's account of PLP that builds directly on Ramachandran's theory is not appropriate. Edhubbard (talk) 03:15, 11 August 2011 (UTC)

Ed, I think you are improving the article. Thanks for the hard work. I find this topic dauntingly complex. Of course, I think many of the people who do research in this area find it challenging as well. By the way, have you seen the article by Lorimer Moseley: Interdependence of movement and anatomy persists when amputees learn a physiologically impossible movement of their phantom limb (PNAS, June 29). Highly speculative but very interesting.Neurorel (talk) 23:10, 11 August 2011 (UTC)Neurorel

A summery of the research history on phantom limbs by Flor et al (1995)

Below is a letter to Nature (Flor et al, 1995) which gives a quick sketch of the history of research in the area if phantom limbs. The references are very helpful in seeing the timeline for the research.(Phantom-limb pain as a perceptual correlate of cortical reorganization following arm amputation, Letters to Nature, June,1995)[2]

ALTHOUGH phantom-limb pain is a frequent consequence of the amputation of an extremity, little is known about its origin1-4. On the basis of the demonstration of substantial plasticity of the somatosensory cortex after amputation5 or somatosensory deafferentation in adult monkeys6, it has been suggested that cortical reorganization could account for some non-painful phantom-limb phenomena in amputees and that cortical reorganization has an adaptive (that is, pain-preventing) function2,5,7,8. Theoretical and empirical work on chronic back pain9,10 has revealed a positive relationship between the amount of cortical alteration and the magnitude of pain, so we predicted that cortical reorganization and phantom-limb pain should be positively related. Using non-invasive neuromagnetic imaging techniques to determine cortical reorganization in humans11-13, we report a very strong direct relationship (r = 0.93) between the amount of cortical reorganization and the magnitude of phantom limb pain (but not non-painful phantom phenomena) experienced after arm amputation. These data indicate that phantom-limb pain is related to, and may be a consequence of, plastic changes in primary somatosensory cortex.(Phantom-limb pain as a perceptual correlate of cortical reorganization following arm amputation, Letters to Nature, June,1995)Neurorel (talk) 23:59, 12 August 2011 (UTC)Neurorel

Is the Ramachandran remapping theory outdated?

I am doing my best to unravel this question and I would appreciate help from anyone who is knowledgeable in this area. My understanding is that more recent research (Knecht et al, 1998) has shown that the perceptual correlates of cortical reorganization are not stable.

Pattern of perceptual changes (page 721) "The pattern of referred sensation, however, depends on the specific synaptic connectivity within a somatosensory pathways rather than the sum total of neuronal activation. Like the first examination the follow-up investigation did not reveal a strict topographical matching between stimulation sites and points of referred sensation as reported in some other studies (Ramachandran et al., 1992; Halligan et al., 1993, 1994). In these earlier studies fewer points were tested than in our investigation; this could increase the chance of obtaining a pattern that roughly matches the topography of an amputated limb. Conversely, with 30 sites and four different modalities evaluated in our study, topographical inconsistencies were seen not only on testing within one modality but additionally between modalities." (Brain, 1998, 121,717-724)

As I understand his original research this new evidence contradicts Ramachandran's hypothesis. Ramachandran,in fact, raised the possibility that his hypothesis might be wrong on this point. I don't think that the wiki article needs to elucidate complex technical arguments but it does appear that his original hypothesis is now outdated. I suggest that information about his original theory should be qualified rather than stated as the prevailing scientific consensus.Neurorel (talk) 20:19, 30 August 2011 (UTC)Neurorel

The Knecht et al. 1998 paper is hardly the last word on cortical reorganization and phantom limbs. Since that 1998 study, there have been at least four studies (in 2001, 2003, 2004 and 2008) demonstrating cortical reorganization in phantom limb patients , two in the same journal that published the Knecht et al. study:

Lotze M, Flor H, Grodd W, Larbig W, Birbaumer N. Phantom movements and pain. (2001). An fMRI study in upper limb amputees. Brain. 2001 Nov;124(Pt 11):2268-77. [3]

Flor H. (2003). Remapping somatosensory cortex after injury. Adv Neurol. 93:195-204. [4]

Grüsser SM, Mühlnickel W, Schaefer M, Villringer K, Christmann C, Koeppe C, Flor H. (2004). Remote activation of referred phantom sensation and cortical reorganization in human upper extremity amputees. Exp Brain Res. 154(1):97-102. [5]

MacIver K, Lloyd DM, Kelly S, Roberts N, Nurmikko T. (2008). Phantom limb pain, cortical reorganization and the therapeutic effect of mental imagery. Brain. 131(Pt 8):2181-91. [6]

These four are in addition to the Flor et al., 1995 Nature paper that you cite above (Flor H, Elbert T, Knecht S, Wienbruch C, Pantev C, Birbaumer N, Larbig W, Taub E. (1995). Phantom-limb pain as a perceptual correlate of cortical reorganization following arm amputation. Nature. 375(6531):482-4.[7]).

The main issue that is still unclear is whether such cortical reorganization is only present in painful phantoms or non-painful phantoms. Several recent studies have suggested that cortical reorganization is restricted to painful phantoms (Flor et al., 1995; Lotze et al., 2001) but given the high percentage of patients with phantom limbs who experience painful sensations (up to 80%) it is difficult to disentangle these questions. In any case, the fact that there is cortical reorganization in phantom limb patients has been demonstrated many times over, not only by the Ramachandran group, but also by others. Edhubbard (talk) 23:10, 30 August 2011 (UTC)

I agree with what you have written above. My question is directed at the "perceptual correlates" of cortical reorganization. As I understand it, current research suggests that the perceptual correlates (found on different parts of the body) are not directly related to cortical reorganization. As stated in the Knecht paper summary:

"However,contrary to our expectation, the topography of referred sensation had completely changed in every patient. These results suggest that while the overall extent of reorganization is a rather stable phenomenon, the concomitant changes in the pattern of sensory processing are not. This may be due to the fact that alterations of sensory processing are not hardwired, but are rather mediated by an extensive and interconnected neural network with fluctuating synaptic strengths."

In other words, the stable and well defined map of referred sensations (on the face) reported by Ramachandran was an anomaly.(He raised this possibility in the conclusion of his paper.) I suggest simply saying that Ramachandran observed cortical reorganization related to phantom limbs and dropping the discussion of perceptual correlates since his research appears to be outdated on this point. Or, Ramachandran's theory could be stated and then qualified with a "Later research suggested that the perceptual correlates are not directly related to the cortical reorganization observed by Ramachandran...." Neurorel (talk) 16:57, 31 August 2011 (UTC)Neurorel

Statement by Herta Flor regarding perceptual correlates of cortical reorganization

PHANTOM LIMB PAIN AND CORTICALREORGANISATION As noted above, not only enduring nociceptive input but also the loss of input, for example, subsequent to amputation or nerve injury, can alter the cortical map. Several studies examined cortical reorganisation after amputation in humans. These studies were instigated by the report of Ramachandran et al. (25) that phantom sensation could be elicited in upper extremity amputees when they were stimulated in the face. There was a point to point correspondence between stimulation sites in the face and the localisation of sensation in the phantom. Moreover, the sensations in the phantom matched the modality of the stimulation, e.g. warmth was perceived as a warm phantom sensation, painful touching was perceived as pain. The authors assumed that this phenomenon might be the perceptual correlate of the type of reorganisation previously described in animal experiments. The invasion of the cortical hand or arm area by the mouth representation might lead to activity in the cortical amputation zone, which would be projected into the no longer present limb. Subsequently, Elbert et al. (26) and Yang et al. (27) used a combination of magnetoencephalographic recordings and structural magnetic resonance imaging to test this hypothesis. They observed a significant shift of the mouth representation into the zone that formerly represented the now amputated hand or arm; however, this shift occurred in patients with and without phantom sensation referred from the mouth. Flor et al. (28) showed that phantom limb pain rather than referred sensation was the perceptual correlate of these cortical reorganisational changes. Patients with phantom limb pain displayed a significant shift from mouth representation to hand representation, whereas this was not the case in patients without phantom limb pain. The intensity of phantom limb pain was significantly positively correlated with the amount of displacement of the mouth representation. It was later shown that referred sensations such as those described by Ramachandran et al. (25) can also be elicited from areas far removed from the amputated limb, for example from the foot in arm amputees. This led to the conclusion that alterations in the organisation of S1 – where arm and foot are represented far apart – are most likely not the neuronal substrate of referred phantom sensations (29, 30). (CORTICAL REORGANISATION AND CHRONIC PAIN: IMPLICATIONS FOR REHABILITATION,Herta Flor,J Rehabil Med 2003; Page 68, Suppl. 41: 66–72) Neurorel (talk) 00:34, 1 September 2011 (UTC)Neurorel

Two Out of Three Combat Veterans...?

The very first paragraph of this article says, "2 out of 3 combat veterans report [having a phantom limb]." Does this mean to say that two thirds of all combat veterans who are amputees have a phantom limb? Because it really sounds like it's saying that two thirds of all combat veterans have a phantom limb, period, and I'm skeptical that that is the case. Modus Ponens (talk) 19:33, 5 December 2011 (UTC)

Not that far from a GA

This article is ripe for a B-class review, and an interested editor could consider pushing it to WP:GA status. --_{Piotr Konieczny aka Prokonsul Piotrus| talk to me} 01:43, 8 December 2011 (UTC)

Current statement obscures Melzack's contribution

Ed: As you point out, the reference to the 1989 paper by Melzack is there. However, I can find nothing in the paper that states that Melzack explicitly rejected the idea of cortical reorganization. More to the point is his view that there is a network of neural areas that are responsible for generating the experience of the body. In my view the current statement obscures the importance of Melzack's contribution. Why not state his views as he states them?Neurorel (talk) 20:15, 27 January 2012 (UTC)Neurorel

Phantom Limb Cases

To whom it may concern. I added a few specific phantom limb cases to your wiki page for a class assignment. I will promptly remove the material I add after the assignment is complete which should be within 3-4 days. Let me know if this will cause a problem. Thanks and have a great day! — Preceding unsigned comment added by Merrygoaround (talk • contribs) 17:16, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

Merry -- it did cause a problem, and the material has been reverted. The material you added did not add significantly to the content already existing in the article, and was not properly sourced. Even though this material was added as part of a school project, it must still conform to Wikipedia's standards for verifiability and to the general manual of style. WikiDan61^ChatMe!_ReadMe!! 21:24, 11 June 2012 (UTC)

In ancient times

Wouldn't people in ancient times have reported this? How did they interpret it? 99.9.112.31 (talk) 23:07, 25 August 2012 (UTC)NotWillDecker

BodyinMind website

The BodyinMind website is maintained by Lorimer Moseley's pain research group at the University of South Australia. It publishes a host of articles on pain research. I would say it is an academic website that is oriented toward creating public awareness of issues in pain research. It allows the public to access entire articles and to comment on them. Often, journals only allow the public to read the abstract.Neurorel (talk) 17:39, 18 November 2013 (UTC)Neurorel

Treatment

I have restored the information about Graded Motor Imagery. Lorimer Moseley is a Ph.D. in medicine and one of the world's leading pain researchers. He has actual clinical experience working with patients. He has cautioned against the use of mirror therapy as a stand alone therapy because in some cases it can increase pain. Moseley developed Graded Motor Imagery because his research showed it was more likely to be effective than simple mirror box therapy. The quotations from Herta Flor (also a highly regarded pain researcher) and Lorimer Moseley have been included to provide a sense of balance and caution. Rather than deleting the existing information, I suggest adding new information or editing the existing information to build a balanced entry.Neurorel (talk) 21:27, 23 January 2014 (UTC)

Grape seed extract

This may not be a reliable source, but it does mention grape seed extract, along with various other "dietary and herbal supplements." Are there any better sources? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:11, 4 June 2015 (UTC)

Ref

We were using this primary source [8] that states PLP may come from the DRG. We should be trying to use review articles. Will try to find one. Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:21, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

I found this systematic review [9] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 00:22, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Hey, I checked out your additions to the article and they look excellent. Forgive my naïveté on the question of sources; I don't edit too many science-related articles, so I might have gotten a bit out of my depths. Tigercompanion25 (talk) 02:01, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Great having you edit User talk:Tigercompanion25. If you use pubmed you can limit your search to "review articles" from the last 5 years using the left sided bar. This can help in finding better sources :-) Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 06:37, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Ooh, good to know! Thank you! :) Tigercompanion25 (talk) 16:44, 27 July 2015 (UTC)

Sources for neuroscience entries: phantom limb

The question of what types of cortical reorganization takes place after amputation is a contentious one that is growing more complex. The prevailing theory (until recently) was that phantom limb pain was the result of maladaptive plasticity -changes that lock in painful sensations. This theory was established primarily by the research of Herta Flor. However, recently Tamar Makin carried out research that suggested there were no changes in the cortex related to pain; and her latest research suggests that changes in the cortex are the result of the remaining hand (on the other side of the brain) colonizing the cortical territory of the amputated hand! Devor and his colleagues have carried out actual clinical research that suggests that phantom limb pain is primarily the result of junk inputs in the peripheral nervous system.

In the area of phantom limb research, Review Articles are not always the most reliable source of information. In fact, some of the most misinformed articles about phantom limb phenomena were review articles that represented the view of a particular scientist who had a vested interest in proving that his/her theory was correct. Our best bet as Wikepedians is to represent the discussion among scientists that is taking place in this area of neuroscience. Neurorel (talk) 21:37, 14 August 2015 (UTC)neurorel

There are a good number of reviews such as this one [10] Doc James (talk · contribs · email) 11:12, 15 August 2015 (UTC)

Contradiction in lede

It sounds strange to define the phantom limb as one that moves "appropriately with the body" and then "may feel as if it is in a distorted and painful position" in the same paragraph. Should be sorted out somehow, or at least be made to look less contradictory.

New research on the persistence of cortical representations after amputation

The material I added to the Research section seems to have caused some concerns. First, allow me to point out that it is basic research. Secondly, please examine the acknowledgement section at the end of the article. This research was funded by both the Wellcome Trust and the Royal Society.

Acknowledgements The study was funded by the Wellcome Trust and the Royal Society. SK is supported by the UK Medical Research Council and Merton College, Oxford. JK holds a Stevenson Junior Research Fellowship at University College, Oxford. SJ is supported by the UK Medical Research Council (MR/L009013/1). CFB is supported by the Netherlands Organisation for Scientific Research (NWO-Vidi 864-12-003) and gratefully acknowledges funding from the Wellcome Trust UK Strategic Award (098369/Z/12/Z). IT is supported by the following: Wellcome Trust Strategic Award and NIHR Oxford Biomedical Research centre. HJB is a Wellcome Trust Principal Research Fellow (110027/Z/15/Z). TRM holds a Sir Henry Dale Fellowship jointly funded by the Wellcome Trust and the Royal Society (104128/Z/14/ Z). We thank our participants for taking part in the study. We thank Devin Terhune and Naveed Ejaz for advice on analysis and Tim Vogels, Paul Matthews, Jody Culham, Tim Behrens and Holly Bridge for comments on the manuscript.

Neurorel (talk) 21:32, 5 October 2016 (UTC)neurorel

142.25.33.105 (talk) 05:30, 2 March 2016 (UTC)

Mechanism: Finding recent RS secondary sources, removing primary sources, Ramachandran-related problems

Recent phantom limb research is describe in two recent review papers, whose entire text can be seen online.

Summarizing these recent summaries, "It's complicated." Pain correlates with many factors of patient history. The PNS and and the brain may both be involved. Treating advances of neuroscience over three decades as proof that Ramachandran 1992 made dumb mistakes is a bad take.

The current summary of 1995 Flor[11] is misleading. The paper reports on 13 amputees, 8 of whom experienced phantom pain. Based on this tiny sample, here is what Flor reported: "The mean shift in the focus of cortical responsivity to facial stimulation was 0.43 em (s.d. =0.40, range 0.01-1.00) for the five pain-free subjects, whereas the mean shift (M) for the eight subjects with phantom-limb pain was almost five times as large (M=2.05 em, s.d. = 1.08, range 0.52-3.86; F(l,ll) =9.94, P<O.OI) (Fig. 3)."

In other words, Flor said there was MORE shift observed in the 8 who suffered pain than in the 5 who did not suffer pain. Flor 1995 did not say that "that pain (rather than referred sensations) was the perceptual correlate of cortical reorganization."

Let's replace SYNTH from primary sources, with science from the 21st century.HouseOfChange (talk) 01:39, 16 July 2019 (UTC)

Concerning 2 changes that I just undid (July 20.) Karl et al. (2001) is a WP:PRIMARY source. This article needs improvement. HouseOfChange (talk) 01:00, 21 July 2019 (UTC)

References

Phantom limb sensations are not the same as phantom limb pain, press releases are not WP:MEDRS

Many different researchers have made a distinction between the experience of having a phantom limb (which most but not all experience as painful, having painful sensations in a phantom limb, which can be of many different kinds, and having "referred sensation" in a phantom limb (so that a gentle touch to the cheek or the shoulder is perceived as a touch to the missing hand, for example.) These topics should be treated separately within the article.

Also, a press release from Chalmers University about a "new theory" for phantom limb pain does not rise to the level of a reliable source. HouseOfChange (talk) 02:20, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

Elsevier's Handbook of Neuropsychology is not "recent research." Its most recent volume was issued in 2003. HouseOfChange (talk) 02:38, 27 July 2019 (UTC)

"No legged" listed at Redirects for discussion

A discussion is taking place to address the redirect No legged. The discussion will occur at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2021 October 13#No legged until a consensus is reached, and readers of this page are welcome to contribute to the discussion. ‡ El cid, el campeador ^talk 19:43, 13 October 2021 (UTC)

Wiki Education assignment: Neuroscience

This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 21 August 2023 and 18 December 2023. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): MoFerqueron (article contribs). Peer reviewers: TabSpikes, Kassafrass.

— Assignment last updated by LundyLoo (talk) 03:28, 27 October 2023 (UTC)