Talk:Peter O'Toole/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Birth/nationality/citizenship...

Today I have been trying to craft the lede so that Mr O'Toole's nationality and his citizenship are sourced from reliable sources and so that the wording is reflective of his heritage. The edits have been reverted with edit summaries but no discussion on this talk page. If we cannot discuss and solve this issue on this talk page without the slow-moving edit wars as referenced above, these concerns might need to begin to move through the Dispute process. (Take a look at the article's edit history.) Please weigh in below. Thank you. Shearonink (talk) 18:30, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

You don't understand the jingoistic and uncompromising nature of those who are determined to reword the lede with their factoids. They seem to think that the Irish President and Irish media determine other countries' citizens' nationality.It is not going to stop so we may as well seek DISPUTE RESOLUTION. Quis separabit? 19:24, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Dispute resolution sought (see https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Wikipedia:Dispute_resolution_noticeboard#Peter_O'Toole). Quis separabit? 19:42, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

The problem, as I've said in edit summaries, is asserting things that are not supported by what's actually in the reference cited. Haldraper (talk) 19:56, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I have been keeping on eye on this whole affair and these IP edits and your edits quis have clearly violated the 3RR it does not matter, I am making the article more neutral until the dispute has been resolved. Neither you or the IP have consensus for your edits and you are very liberal with the use of vandal, I suggest you ease down on the rhetoric and accusing people of having an agenda.ÓCorcráin (talk) 20:18, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I already reported to ANI/3RR that I may have violated 3RR, albeit in combatting IP vandalism. Quis separabit? 20:22, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Please explain how the edits are vandalism. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 20:28, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I regard them as vandalism as they are unrelenting, intransigent demands, largely by unregistered and anonymous IPs which ignore all explanations, assertions and edit summaries with which they are not in complete agreement. IP demands are for text (in lede or lead) to be phrased exactly as they want it, rejecting all attempts at compromise (i.e. "British and Irish", "Irish-British", "British actor of Irish descent", "British actor of Irish and Scottish descent who later acquired Irish citizenship", et al). Quis separabit? 20:34, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Edit-warring yes, which you are both guilty of, vandalism no. Also by your definition of vandalism it seems that you would be just as guilty as the IP. ÓCorcráin (talk) 20:48, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

Agree with ÓCorcráin. POV-pushing (which is not exempt from WP:3RR) maybe, but not vandalism. --NeilN ^{talk to me} 21:44, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

I really can't comment on the DRN at this time, so I just wanted to stop by and express my support for the lede/infobox being left blank until at least the DRN has finished. --Somchai Sun (talk) 22:05, 13 January 2014 (UTC)

No one's nationality is determined by YouTube and nothing his daughter may have said precludes his being first and foremost British, based on birth (almost certainly Leeds), residency, genealogy, his birth before 1949 to parents entitled to UK citizenship, etc. There are ways that have been proposed to put his background, such as "British actor of Irish and Scottish descent", "English actor of Irish and Scottish descent", "British-Irish actor" (which is current), and others. However, a clique has refused all attempts at conciliation and cooperation. Unless he specifically renounced his British citizenship that remains his primary nationality. Now the page is protected and remains watchlisted. Quis separabit? 18:37, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

How was birth in "almost certainly Leeds"? He had an Irish birth cert, too, and said himself he didn't know where he was born. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 18:51, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

If he had an Irish birth certificate that merely shows Dublin's perfidy. Quis separabit? 19:08, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Let me explain about why I referred to "Dublin's perfidy" based on your comments. If O'Toole really didn't know where he was born then how could he have been issued a birth certificate by the Irish government? Normally, a birth registration of live birth is required by any reputable governmental agency. In which case O'Toole would have known where he was born and a copy of the registration would/could have been displayed online or displayed in one of his memoirs or his autobiography. Otherwise his "Irish birth certificate", if even genuine, was made from whole cloth. Quis separabit? 19:49, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

I've been following this discussion with interest as an uninvolved editor for some time. The fact that O'Toole had at least one parent who was a British citizen, was raised and educated in England/UK, served in the Royal Navy, was widely known as an actor in British films and theatre, and was by all accounts a British citizen himself (but perhaps also a dual Irish citizen) would seem to add up that he should at least be characterized as a "British-Irish actor," if not simply as a "British actor." He was neither raised nor educated in Ireland, he did not serve in the Irish armed forces, and as far as I know was not known for working in the Irish film industry or theatre. Oh, and if I'm not mistaken, O'Toole's natural speaking accent was English, not Irish. Is there something I'm missing here? "British actor of Irish and Scottish descent" strikes me as an entirely reasonable (and accurate) description. Does anyone know where O'Toole paid his income tax? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 19:23, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

@Dirtlawyer1: I agree with most of the above, which largely overlaps with my own comments. Of course he was British. However, where you pay your taxes does not determine one's citizenship as non-citizens are required to pay taxes as needed in most if not all countries. Quis separabit? 19:49, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

RMS, the United States has a tax treaty with almost every country on the planet; the basic principle of these is that you only pay tax on a given slice of income once, not twice, thereby not penalizing a dual citizen, dual resident, or foreign national, who earns income in one country and lives and/or earns other income elsewhere. While not determinative of his citizenship/nationality, it would provide one more piece of the puzzle. IMHO, the whole thing about two birth certificate and two birth dates is just plain weird. Have either of them ever been made public? Dirtlawyer1 (talk) 20:04, 4 March 2015 (UTC)

Nationality

Nationality needs to be changed, actor is Irish, not British. Reference 4 cites actor as Irish— Preceding unsigned comment added by Jnf1121 (talk • contribs) 12:51, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

There are two possibilities - either he was born in Leeds to an Irish father and Scottish mother, in which case he would acquire British nationality at birth through his mother but could later claim Irish citizenship if he wanted to through his father, or he was born in Connemara, which in 1932 was in the Irish Free State, to an Irish father and Scottish mother in which case he would still be a British subject by birth. I've no idea whether he ever claimed Irish citizenship and he himself said he didn't know where he was born but wherever it was he would have acquired British nationality. Haldraper (talk) 13:55, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Numerous sources including himself and the international media and Hollywood consider himself Irish, his country of origin is Irish, end of discussion. ÓCorcráin (talk) 14:20, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Also Haldraper, if you make such disruptive edits again and remove reliable sources and insert unsourced material instead you will be reported and blocked, and your block history shows it. ÓCorcráin (talk) 14:24, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

End of discussion? He himself didn't know where he was born. How you or anyone else can confidently assert his country of origin was Ireland when he apparently had birth certificates for Connemara and Leeds is beyond me. Haldraper (talk) 14:27, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

Not only does the world consider himself him Irish, but Peter O'Toole himself identified as Irish and not British or English, but he was a British citizen and that is mentioned in the article, so lets just leave it at that. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Tyrsóg (talk • contribs) 14:39, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

"but Peter O'Toole himself identified as Irish and not British or English" -- any quotes to back that up? Quis separabit? 21:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

According to this, he held an Irish passport so whether his citizenship was acquired by birth or through his father his nationality as you say was Irish. Haldraper (talk) 15:10, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

He may have held an Irish passport but that does not negate his dual citizenship unless he expressly renounced his British nationality, which no one has indicated he ever did. Quis separabit? 21:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

Editors such as Tyrsóg need to be very careful with throwing around phrases like 'vandalism' and 'disruptive editing'. Span (talk) 15:35, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

As has been pointed out with sources, he seemed to consider himself Irish & held dual citizenship. So I think it's fairly represented now. --Somchai Sun (talk) 16:30, 16 December 2013 (UTC)

"held dual citizenship" -- yet not in the article lede because some editors don't like that? Quis separabit? 21:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

NOW (after an absence of some days), I will ask: Why is Tyrsóg also known as ÓCorcráin allowed to get away with removing all references to O'Toole's British citizenship and nationality. Anyone who uses "end of discussion" should be blocked for 31 hours just for that offense, IMO. It is ridiculous that no other editors have seen fit to point out the conundrum of a man (O'Toole) with two birth certificates (from two different countries; but I am pretty sure I know which is the fraudulent one) yet has only one nationality in the article lede, and not the nationality of the country in which he was born, raised, educated, served in the military, worked and died. Amazing how all this is wiped out by one POV-pushing editor's fiat. This is bull. Quis separabit? 21:53, 19 December 2013 (UTC)

The hypocrisy regarding this issue contrast with the cases of Maria Aitken, Jonathan Aitken, Joyce Redman and others born in the 26 counties after 1922, but who are/were British. If O'Toole claimed an Irish passport late in life it is irrelevant to his other categorizations, although notable that he left Britain, not the Republic of Ireland, to pay for his geriatric medical care costs. Quis separabit? 18:01, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

It was actually my idea to include his British citizenship into the infobox, so next time before you accuse me of POV pushing do your homework first instead of mouthing off like a twit, and you keep ignoring the fact that O'Toole identified himself as an Irish man not British, one's ethnic identity and nationality are completely different from citizenship, anyone with a couple of brain cells would know that. You have a block log a mile long and now I can see why, but I cannot understand why you have not been indefinitely blocked. You better take a step backwards and relax before you hang yourself with your personal abuse and get blocked. (again) ÓCorcráin (talk) 20:43, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

I never said that adding his dual citizenship to the lede was a bad idea. I think it's fine. I think his personal preference for being described as Irish should be reflected though, as it is on Daniel Day-Lewis. Also, what? Maria Aitken? She just happened to be born in Ireland to ex-pat parents, like my father (Cyprus though). --Somchai Sun (talk) 20:04, 21 December 2013 (UTC)

Well, O'Toole's Scottish mother was (apparently briefly) a UK ex-pat in the Irish Free State (the correct term). The siblings Maria and Jonathan Aitken are still eligible to hold Irish citizenship if they chose -- as far as I know -- based upon where/when they were born. I don't know about Cyprus. Quis separabit? 23:25, 23 December 2013 (UTC)

First of all, why doesn't someone involved in this partisan bickering explain here the difference between "nationality" and "citizenship". Second, the infobox cites his allegedly dual citizenship (show me his Irish passport) and the categories refer to him as an "English" film, stage, television, et al actor, I fail to see why there is this continuing disagreement. I seriously recommend that partisan editors also read the section below ("Questions to Tyrsóg aka ÓCorcráin"). Quis separabit? 18:10, 30 December 2013 (UTC)

O'Toole was probably born in England, and was certainly brought up in England. He was accordingly to normal usage English or British. Ethnically and culturally he may have been Irish - or more accurately half-Irish. But he should be recorded as a British actor.Royalcourtier (talk) 07:36, 14 February 2014 (UTC)

I'd just like to add that I remember Peter 0'Toole being on a British chatshow in the sixties and talking about his childhood in Liverpool, not Leeds or anywhere in Ireland. I do remember him mentioning his Irish father and Scots mother, as vividly as I remember Liverpool, as they weren talking about all the talent that had emerged from Liverpool, rhyming off various groups, other actors and Danny La Rue. That said, I can't produce evidence for it.— Preceding unsigned comment added by LostGirl001 (talk • contribs) 20:28, 20 March 2015 (UTC)

Epic

New book reveals epic sex life and many famous partners. The book is Peter O'Toole: Hellraiser, Sexual Outlaw, Irish Rebel written by Darwin Porter and Danforth Prince ("As a biographer, Porter has won numerous awards"). -- GreenC 14:02, 6 July 2015 (UTC)

Impossible?

Article states that it is "impossible" that his parents didn't know where and when he was born. This must have been written by someone from some Ivory Tower. They could have been using any number of drugs (including alcohol) which would ruin their short term memory so that a few years after his birth the time and place was lost. It may be "unlikely" assuming editor KNOWS the biography of his parents (well. who makes that claim?) but it is obviously NOT impossible. There also may be other reasons they lied (financial, legal, familial,...).173.189.72.226 (talk) 00:42, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

I am not a particular fan of O'Toole so let's await the reaction of some of O'Toole's real fans to your insinuations that his parents were mentally defective and/or drug addicts. Should be fun. And obviously a child is not privy to all the details of his parents' lives nor can a child ever be around when his/her parents were born, but the opposite usually tends to be true. Your argument is nonsensical. And I don't need to be from any ivory tower to know that. Quis separabit? 00:56, 20 August 2015 (UTC)

Nationality

I went to school with his son Lorcan, He said he regarded himself as Irish more so than anything and made sure Lorcan was born in Ireland. He also refused a knighthood by the Queen, So It's kind of unfair to call him British, Irish-English would be more appropriate if not just Irish. It's strange the way people are trying to regard him as British and British people get offended when Irish people try to claim Daniel Day Lewis who has spent most of his Life in Ireland and is a citizen.— Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.17.130.69 (talk) 11:24, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

This is unsourced trivial nonsense. It is not a question of what O'Toole considered himself to be -- obviously he identified more with his Irish paternal side than his maternal Scottish side. It is a question of where he was born and raised which decides his nationality, in the absence of any evidence he either took out Irish citizenship (a bogus birth certificate created on his behalf being utterly irrelevant) or renounced his British nationality, neither of which he is known to have done. Declining a knighthood means nothing -- so did Paul Scofield, John Cleese, Robert Morley, David Bowie, and others, all English.

Having been born, raised, served in the Royal Navy and spent most of his life and career in the UK -- O'Toole is "British-Irish". As far as Sir Daniel Day-Lewis -- I think his substantive knighthood speaks for itself -- he is solely entitled to Irish citizenship because his father was born there. Therefore, he too is "British-Irish". Quis separabit? 17:33, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

We have proof he was born in the UK? Because the article doesn't imply that... Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 17:53, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

We surely do have proof from http://www.findmypast.co.uk. However, a segment of the populace refuse to acknowledge it and relentless vandalised it:

First name(s) PETER J
Last name O'TOOLE
Birth year 1932
Birth quarter 3
Registration month -Mother's last name FERGUSON
District LEEDS NORTH
County Yorkshire
Country England
Volume 9B
Page 307
Record set England & Wales births 1837-2006
Category Birth, Marriage, Death & Parish Records
Subcategory Births & baptisms
Collections from Great Britain
([1],[2])Quis separabit? 18:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

That's not proof. That's (presumably) a record of O'Toole's UK birth cert? As the article says, "Some sources give his birthplace as Connemara, County Galway, Ireland while others cite Leeds, West Riding of Yorkshire, England.[2][3] O'Toole himself was not certain of his birthplace or date, noting in his autobiography that, while he accepted 2 August as his birthdate, he had a birth certificate from each country, with the Irish one giving a June 1932 birthdate." So the existence of one cert does not prevent or negate the existence of another. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 22:56, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I agree that a registration of birth is not necessarily a birth certificate (witness the Obama kerfuffle), but if O'Toole didn't know where he was born, then who did? Obviously his parents had to know when and where their only child son was born! I don't believe that he didn't know anyway; that strains credulity. He wasn't orphaned. And as far as having a birth certificate in both countries, obviously one was/is fraudulent -- guess which one I suspect. Anyway I am willing to leave things as they are but I have the page watchlisted because there are those who won't. Yours, Quis separabit? 14:55, 6 August 2015 (UTC)

Peter O’Toole’s Irish Fib: "There is a new biography of the late Peter O’Toole out today in the U.K. Written by Robert Sellers, the book establishes its credentials at the top of Chapter One by tackling the matter of the actor’s place of birth. ... Sellers was able to quickly and authoritatively establish that O’Toole, despite a lifetime of statements to the contrary, was born in Leeds, Yorkshire. Not Ireland." 124.169.165.146 (talk) 16:10, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

Robert Sellers, Peter O'Toole: The Definitive Biography (Sidgwick & Jackson, London: 2015), p. 1: "I gave up counting the number of people I interviewed for this book who rolled their eyes when I brought up his nationality—‘He’s not Irish,’ they muttered, ’I always thought he was born in Leeds.’ … All it took was one phone call to Leeds City Council births, deaths and marriages to uncover O’Toole’s birth certificate. The man who went through life proudly purporting to be an Irishman was in fact a Yorkshireman, born at the famous St James University Hospital, or Jimmy’s, in Leeds, 2 August 1932." 124.169.165.146 (talk) 16:23, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

As above. "Some sources give his birthplace as Connemara, County Galway, Ireland while others cite Leeds, West Riding of Yorkshire, England.[2][3] O'Toole himself was not certain of his birthplace or date, noting in his autobiography that, while he accepted 2 August as his birthdate, he had a birth certificate from each country, with the Irish one giving a June 1932 birthdate." So the existence of one cert does not prevent or negate the existence of another. Bastun^{Ėġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ!} 20:58, 11 September 2015 (UTC)

@Bastun: "So the existence of one cert does not prevent or negate the existence of another." -- YES it does -- as one must therefore be false or outright fraudulent -- and I don't need to guess as to which one that is. @124.169.165.146 -- to paraphrase the late great Ed McMahon -- "You are correct, sir". Quis separabit? 01:17, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Not all sources are equally reliable or valuable. It's not a matter of our opinion: our decision is made for us by the sources. The most up-to-date and reliable secondary sources, based on archival research (independently verified above) and interviews with third parties, confirm that O'Toole was born in Leeds, and offer an explanation as to why he sometimes whimsically claimed otherwise. Whereas even the older, less thoroughly-researched, less objective, and less reliable sources being cited above to support Connemara admit themselves that claim is at best dubious. Given the strength of this evidence, it would be false and misleading to continue to present both claims as if they carried equal weight, when they obviously do not. 124.169.165.146 (talk) 03:12, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

Temporary link vs permalink

About this edit: the link http://awardsdatabase.oscars.org/ampas_awards/DisplayMain.jsp?curTime=1443317158396 cannot be used, because the "1443317158396" value at the "curTime" (current time) parameter expires. In other words: "curTime" is a permanent parameter with a temporary value attributed to it, hence the temporary value cannot be used as a permalink (a permanent link). Please access the link above and you'll notice that it has already expired.

This is the reason why I replaced http://awardsdatabase.oscars.org/ampas_awards/DisplayMain.jsp?curTime=1443317158396 by http://awardsdatabase.oscars.org/ampas_awards/BasicSearch?action=searchLink&displayType=1&BSCategoryExact=1651&BSFromYear=75: this second link doesn't expire, because it's a permalink. In other words: every time you access it, it will set a new (valid and active, though temporary) value for the "curTime" parameter. Try accessing it and you'll see that it always works.►Sampayu 01:07, 6 November 2015 (UTC)

Nationality

There are several questions raised on this point about Peter Seamus O Toole.

People cannot insist on imposing a nondescript nationality on O Toole as described as "British Irish" on the Wiki landing page. There is no such nationality. A person can only have one nationality on their death. That is the time when that matter is finalised.

1 Its appear that an Irish Birth Certificate exists registering O Toole's birth in Ireland prior to that of a British Birth Certificate registering the same birth in Britain. Therefore even under British law O Toole was of Irish nationality at birth. As a registered document the FIRST IN TIME PREVAILS. This serves as his nationality up to the time of his age of legal majority, being 21 years of age at the time. If he had been born in Ireland and the birth registered in Britain for the first time then his nationality at birth was British because a registered document trumps any event that is unregistered. But it appears not to be the case which makes him Irish at that time. 2 A person as an adult can choose their own nationality. It is clear that O Toole during all of his adult life professed himself to be Irish. That is a matter of record. He held a residence in Ireland since 1963, held an Irish passport, maintained Irish friends and expressed a desire to be buried in Ireland. By virtue of his birth, his words and actions in his lifetime O Toole was more Irish than the Hill of Tara.

It now behoves the Author of the article to correct the text. He has already received the corrective text I believe.

Patsyboy

---

@Patsyboy:

a) Please sign your messages with four tildes, ~~~~, first of all.

b) "British-Irish" is perfectly acceptable as are any number of combined or hyphenated nationalities that appear on Wikipedia. As a matter of fact, his mother was Scottish, so she could also be fairly described as "Scottish-Irish" or "Irish and Scottish", or "British of Irish and Scottish descent". There is NO indication O'Toole renounced his British nationality/citizenship. No one is denying he had a strong Irish connexion. But he was born in England, did his military service in England, lived most of his life in England, and made his career there. Three Irishmen (Terry Wogan↑, Ciarán Devane, and Stephen Rahilly) have held or hold substantive British knighthoods and are described as "Irish-British", btw.

c) "Its appear [sic] that an Irish Birth Certificate exists registering O Toole's birth in Ireland prior to that of a British Birth Certificate registering the same birth in Britain. Therefore even under British law O Toole was of Irish nationality at birth." -- uh, any evidence of any of that? And people born in the 26 counties were still British as Ireland had not yet become a republic, as far as I know. Look, I agree that if someone by happenstance is born in one country but raised in another, he/she has every right to disregard the technical birthplace. But not when you spend almost your whole life in the technical birthplace (Leeds, in this case, unless most of us on this thread are wrong) and never renounce that nationality. Can I see a copy of the Irish birth certificate referenced by some editors on this thread? How come it hasn't been posted online yet? I don't claim I can determine its authenticity but why not show it if it's legit?

d) "A person can only have one nationality on their death." -- utterly untrue -- what lawyer told you that? Demand your money back.

e) Peter Seamus O'Toole's middle initial on his true birth certificate is "J" (for "Joseph", perhaps?)

f) Yes, we all know about people born and raised in Britain, who decide, after decades of taking advantage of the free education, jobs, etc. that they want to be Irish (scummy Martin McDonagh and his brother, who have earned plenty of money in and from Blighty, come to mind, foremost, although there are, presumably, many thousands), and those fifth columnist parasites are a reality, which no one denies. I would like not to lump O'Toole amongst them, nor would he deserve such a posthumous insult.

g) "O'Toole’s father was Irish and his mother was Scottish. Although he regarded himself as Irish, he was brought up in Leeds in England and may even have been born there. He wasn’t sure himself because he had two birth certificates; one saying he was born in Leeds on 2 August 1932, and the other saying he was born in June in Connemara in Ireland" (per [3]). OK, that's "two birth certificates", not "one birth certificate and one registration of birth".

h) "He held a residence in Ireland since 1963, held an Irish passport, maintained Irish friends and expressed a desire to be buried in Ireland. By virtue of his birth, his words and actions in his lifetime O Toole was more Irish than the Hill of Tara." -- cut the blarney. I don't know what "held a residence in Ireland since 1963" means given that he spent most of his life, including his last years, in England and died there, not that that is entirely dispositive, but neither is an phony Irish birth certificate which has not even been posted to this talk page or to the article by those who say it exists and is definitive.which raises rather disturbing concerns about the integrity of, at a minimum, Irish local government. Dame Angela Lansbury's mother was from Belfast and she has had a residence in Ireland for many decades, so? Actors like Dana Wynter, Jean Stapleton, Robert Shaw, Marianne Faithfull and Sirs John Hurt and Tyrone Guthrie also live(d) and, in some cases, died there, so?? Tony Blair's mother was born in Ireland, does that make him Irish? Cherie Blair, CBE, a scouser, is more Irish than all the above. Quis separabit? 03:37, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

In 1932, Ireland was part of Britain. Peter O'Toole was born British. No amount of plastic paddy prejudice can change that. Kentish 0040 8 Jul 17 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.15.62.161 (talk) 23:40, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

@82.15.62.161 - Just to correct this, Ireland was not part of Britain in 1932, it has left 10 years earlier.

NOT ANGLO-IRISH

O'Toole was not Anglo-Irish. I understand what, whoever came up with this was thinking, but it is incorrect. Anglo-Irish refers to most of the Protestant population in Ireland, who were descended from settlers from England. I have no sympathy for the fifth columnist trolls who have been trying to wreak havoc regarding this issue but the correct term is not Anglo-Irish but English (or British) of Irish descent. And that's a fact, Jack. Quis separabit? 02:49, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

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== Semi-protected edit request on 18 January 2018 Anglo- Irish is not a term for Irish living in England It is a term for Irish Citizens of Anglo Saxon decent going back over 100 years which O'Toole is not. In fact there is little further from Anglo-Irish then the name O'Toole.

2601:197:780:5960:FC8A:4875:3719:1404 (talk) 02:30, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Eggishorn (talk) (contrib) 02:59, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

Birth place

I am starting this discussion in hopes we can come to a consensus about O'Toole's birth place. The infobox currently has "Disputed: either [[Connemara]], [[County Galway, Ireland]] or <br>[[Leeds]], Yorkshire, England" listed. I am going to request full protection while this is discussed. Mlpearc (open channel) 16:10, 11 April 2016 (UTC)

Closing discussion from block-evading HarveyCarter.
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The birth records show he was born in England. There's no record of a Peter O'Toole being born in Ireland in 1932. (31.50.131.13 (talk) 22:13, 11 June 2016 (UTC)) Citation needed for that... ;-) BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:13, 1 August 2016 (UTC) If we can come to some kind of sourced/referenced consensus, I think this issue needs a "FAQ" posted up there in the Talk page header... Shearonink (talk) 23:56, 1 August 2016 (UTC) His birthplace has been corrected on the imdb. It's time it was corrected here as well. (165.120.240.110 (talk) 16:13, 7 August 2016 (UTC)) His birthplace was "corrected" on a site that takes user contributions? No matter. IMDB isn't a RS. Enclyclopaedia Britannica is. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 16:19, 7 August 2016 (UTC) The birth records show he was born in Leeds. (165.120.240.110 (talk) 17:30, 7 August 2016 (UTC)) Do they? {{citation needed}}, as XKCD might say. Reliable sources state he was born in Galway. BastunĖġáḍβáś₮ŭŃ! 22:55, 7 August 2016 (UTC)

I have access to familysearch.org [anyone can get a free account with them] and I can confirm that there is a birth registered for a Peter J O'Toole for the 3rd quarter of 1932 (jul/aug/sept) mother's maiden name Ferguson,registration district Leeds North, volume 9B, page 307, line number 142. It is worth noting that Seamus is the Irish version of James. This is the link, but I am not sure if it will work for nonmembers: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:QVQ4-HC4B Solatiumz (talk) 00:53, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Not born in Ireland

Records from the General Registry Office in Leeds confirm that Peter J (James) O'Toole was born in England: https://www.independent.ie/irish-news/otooles-claims-of-irish-roots-are-blarney-26284021.html (109.146.218.224 (talk) 12:10, 24 July 2018 (UTC))

Robert Sellers confirmed O'Toole was born in Leeds in his 2015 autobiography - he wrote it only took one phone call to confirm it. (Mcd;;d;ww (talk) 23:10, 11 January 2019 (UTC))

@Mcd;;d;ww: Hi. You added something to the article. I reverted it. You reverted my reversion. That's not how it's supposed to go. WP:BRD If you want to add something, and you're reverted, the next step is Discuss on the talk page. I'm glad you posted here–thank you. But please revert yourself voluntarily while we discuss this. Your edit has a number of problems:

1. It's a bare link instead of a {{cite}} tag. When I "reverted" you, I actually only removed the prose; I kept the citation in the article, and I expanded the citation to proper {{cite}} format. When you reverted, you replaced the properly-formatted cite with the bare link.
2. You are citing to Sellers' 2015 biography (not autobiography) in your message here, but your link that you used in the article is to a 2007 Irish Independent article, and later articles by the same publication give both theories.
3. The prose you have (which you have just restored) is copyvio because it's too close of a paraphrase. WP:CLOP
4. It's duplicative, as the article already sets out the "born in Leeds" theory.
5. "Born in Leeds" is not what O'Toole wrote in his autobiography, and it's not the only viewpoint, and it's not even the majority viewpoint:

BBC: He claimed to have two birth certificates. One stated that he was born in Ireland, one in England, but he was certainly brought up in Leeds in a Yorkshire Irish family.

The Guardian: O'Toole was born, he said, in Connemara, western Ireland (others say Leeds, where he grew up), the son of a wandering bookmaker.

Yorkshire Evening Post: It is not known whether Seamus Peter O’Toole was born in Leeds or Dublin on August 2, 1932, but his upbringing was certainly in Leeds where he attended a Catholic school but renounced religion at the age of 15.

The Independent (UK) refers to him as an Irish-born actor

Irish Independent: According to some biographies, he was born in Connemara, Co Galway, shortly before his parents emigrated to an impoverished expatriate community in Hunslet, Leeds. Other accounts place his birth in Leeds, but whatever the truth, Peter Seamus O'Toole relished in the ambiguity. This article was published by the same newspaper, after the 2007 Irish Independent article you are linking to in your edit.

Irish Independent (again): The son of an Irish bookmaker, Seamus Peter O'Toole's listed both Connemara, Co Galway, and Leeds in England as his birth places -- on August 2, 1932. Ditto about being after 2007.

Neither one biography, nor one birth certificate, settles the matter. We don't just erase the controversy and take a side. If you want to expand on the birthplace controversy and include Sellers as a source, of course there is no problem with that... but it must be done with neutral language, verified to the right source (the book, with page number, not a 2007 article), and it can't say "confirmed" because it's very much not confirmed. Anyway, please revert yourself for these reasons. Thank you. Levivich (talk) 23:40, 11 January 2019 (UTC)

O'Toole's parents had lived in Leeds since 1930 so it is obvious he was not born in Ireland. The Sellars biography is a reliable source, I will have to find the page number. (Mcd;;d;ww (talk) 00:01, 12 January 2019 (UTC))

"His parents lived in Leeds so he must have been born in Leeds" is WP:SYNTH and WP:OR. I would have no objection if you changed the sentence from how you have it now to: In his 2015 biography of O'Toole, Robert Sellers wrote, "..." and cite to the biography. Would you agree with that? Levivich (talk) 00:05, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Few more in case you're still on the fence on this issue:

Irish Examiner: Seamus Peter O’Toole was born on Aug 2, 1932. No living person is sure whether his birthplace was Connemara, Dublin, or Leeds.

Irish Herald: In his autobiography Peter O'Toole wrote that he was born in Connemara but that his birth was registered in Leeds, Yorkshire in 1932.

Irish Times: O’Toole cited Connemara and Leeds as his birthplace, and had two birth certificates to prove it.

BBC (again): Peter Seamus O'Toole was born on 2 August 1932. Some reports say he was born in Connemara, County Galway - others that he was born in Leeds. O'Toole himself professed not to know the answer, although he was fond of stressing his Irishness.

Pretty much every single RS says "Ireland or England" and notes the uncertainty. One guy's book cannot settle this dispute. Wikipedia cannot settle this dispute. We should represent both sides of this debate in a neutral way, without declaring a "winner." Levivich (talk) 00:26, 12 January 2019 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 May 2020

change Oscar nomination from 2006 to 2007. Decoyduck2004 (talk) 04:04, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

@Decoyduck2004:  Not done: see Academy Award for Best Actor for consensus on how the years are listed on Wikipedia. GoingBatty (talk) 04:21, 9 May 2020 (UTC)

Two Birth Certificates?

This has been bashed out to some degree in other threads, but if the UK can produce (and apparently has) documented evidence that he was born in Leeds, then can someone explain the 'two birth certificates' theory? Ireland, though then nominally part of the UK (please, no politics) issued its own birth certificates as a separate jurisdiction. Why would the Irish authorities have issued a birth certificate to someone not born there? This all seems pretty dubious. Hanoi Road (talk) 18:42, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

His Irish "birth certificate" was a forgery. (Traml12 (talk) 11:32, 16 January 2021 (UTC))

O'Toole was Irish, not British

The man is on record as saying he is Irish. His family say he is Irish. His dying wish was to have his ashes spread where his home was in Ireland. Whoever has written that he was a "British actor of Irish decent" is not only being incredibly disrespectful to O'Toole himself, but is playing fast and loose with the truth. If Wikipedia is to be trusted as a genuine source of factual information, the opening to this piece will be corrected. This is appalling - please correct it. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 93.107.190.192 (talk) 21:11, 6 May 2020 (UTC)

He considered himself an Irish man. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 109.144.219.203 (talk) 13:24, 11 October 2019 (UTC)

The birth records show he was born in Leeds. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.160.157.216 (talk) 17:31, 22 October 2019 (UTC) Block evasion by User:HarveyCarter. Binksternet (talk) 04:32, 9 March 2020 (UTC)

That doesn't make him a British man though? you people really like to claim everyone of note as your own. It's immoral and outrageous. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2001:BB6:683A:D758:C4CE:B9CE:E62A:D5CD (talk) 10:43, 29 December 2019 (UTC)

Check out below interview clip from 1 min 14 sec onwards, where Peter O'Toole discusses what it means to him to be Irish. I think it makes it fully clear that he identified as being Irish, regardless of where he may have been born and grew up. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wrmR8guKdgU&t=78s — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:6981:BD80:61DD:AFAA:4F66:DBEF (talk) 21:46, 24 January 2020 (UTC)

Check out below interview clip from 1963 where O'Toole states "I consider myself to be an Irishman but I have lived most of my life in England so I am fairly bogus Irish actor". This is from the RTE TV series "Reeling in the Years" 1963. I would argue that O'Toole's nationality was whatever he said it was and you now have 2 interview clips where he stated he was Irish. (see previous paragraph for other clip). https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pX5vBJalTQw&feature=youtu.be — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A02:8084:6981:BD80:F582:69C2:7671:AA65 (talk) 22:01, 25 January 2020 (UTC)

Although he was born in England O'Toole was actually of Scottish and Irish descent. (Traml12 (talk) 11:33, 16 January 2021 (UTC))

Semi-protected edit request on 16 February 2021

Peter O'Toole was IRISH. He was NOT of Irish descent, he was Irish, NOT British! We're a very small country, can't people let us have even some little things or do they want to claim everything????? Marckellyv1 (talk) 12:24, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

I've practically given up on this one due to the unclear status of where he was born. Obviously he cannot have been born in Britain and Ireland. It is quite likely he was entitled to dual British and Irish nationality. Assuming that he was born in Leeds, he would have had British nationality automatically at birth and this cannot be revoked. There was a similar debate at Martin McGuinness.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 14:37, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

The birth records show O'Toole was born in England, and his mother was a Scot. His being "Irish" was an invention on his part. (Traml12 (talk) 05:49, 11 March 2021 (UTC))

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2021

glenn close tied the record for most nominations without a win tonight, as this post is written now it needs an update to reflect the tie or narrow the category to best actor. cheers 2603:7000:1301:97EB:8D31:E73C:16FD:1875 (talk) 05:56, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 10:23, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 4 May 2021

Change "Peter Seamus O'Toole was an British stage and film actor" to "Peter Seamus O'Toole was an Irish-British stage and film actor". Paolob041964 (talk) 11:12, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Peter O'Toole had spent his life speaking of being Irish, his love of being Irish, and the amount of time he spent in his home country. His countless videos on YouTube and his Irish citizenship alone testifies to that. Somebody keeps changing this. What is wrong with keeping Irish and British? I think it accurately reflects Peter O'Toole's true national status. He loved Ireland and Yorkshire. Thank you very much. Paul Bradley. Paolob041964 (talk) 11:17, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. This is clearly contentious, please see above. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 14:23, 4 May 2021 (UTC)

Why have you removed Peter O'Toole's Irishness?

Peter O'Toole spent his whole life talking, and often boasting, of his Irishness. His pride on being Irish is on interviews online and even on youtube. He had a dual nationality (there was a dispute where he was born. O'Toole kept saying that he was born in Ireland although he was not sure). I wrote to you before. The Peter O'Toole Society members, including Peter's family members, question why Wikipedia continually removes Peter O'Toole's Irishness and heritage.

What is so wrong about referring to Peter O'Toole as Irish-British? And why delete his Irish heritage and even his dispute about his real nationality.

I am not trying to remove his Britishness, or his fondness for Leeds, but his love for and identification with Ireland is on record.

I would appreciate that you could amend. I would be grateful if you could reply to me and thank you very much in advance.

Paul Bradley Paolob2 (talk) 13:12, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 23 May 2021

Peter Seamus O'Toole (/oʊˈtuːl/; 2 August 1932 – 14 December 2013) was a British-Irish stage and film actor Paolob2 (talk) 13:15, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Irish-British citizenship Paolob2 (talk) 13:16, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

 Not done for now: please establish a consensus for this alteration before using the {{edit semi-protected}} template. See above ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 13:23, 23 May 2021 (UTC)

Please update

Meryl Streeps Academy Award nominations. The actual number is 21, not 19. Thanks 77.66.41.145 (talk) 19:24, 4 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 21 August 2021

change: “Even prior to the making of Lawrence O'Toole…”

to: “Even prior to the making of Lawrence of Arabia, O'Toole…” 86.131.54.221 (talk) 16:35, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

 Done —Sirdog (talk) 19:46, 21 August 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 29 September 2021

Following film location work Peter O’Toole was a guest player for the cricket team in Staithes, North Torkshire when he and his family stayed in the Harbour Side hotel on Seaton Garth overlooking the harbour. Jollop (talk) 11:15, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Submitted by John Pritchard

18 The Paddocks, Ingatestone,Essex CM40BQ

Agreed Jollop (talk) 11:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Agreed Jollop (talk) 11:16, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. ScottishFinnishRadish (talk) 11:28, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 12 November 2021

Peter O' Toole was an Irish actor, he wasn't even born in Britain. He was born in Conmara which is actually in his bio but somehow he is still British? There is an interview with Charlie Rose in which he describes what being Irish being the centre of his being. 2A02:8084:51C2:1380:69AB:9E6E:59FD:D0CD (talk) 01:39, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. - FlightTime (open channel) 01:46, 12 November 2021 (UTC)

PETER O TOOLE IS IRISH!

Peter o Toole is Irish!! 2001:BB6:B608:DD00:C0F:8A69:DADE:990E (talk) 12:24, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Okay, here we go again. There have been multiple previous discussions about this on the talk page, and he may well have been entitled to dual British/Irish citizenship. Attempts to portray him as 100% Irish or British aren't very convincing. Also, O'Toole's statements about this issue have to be regarded as WP:AUTO. Official records say that he was born in Leeds, so he would have had British citizenship automatically at birth.--♦IanMacM♦ ^{(talk to me)} 12:41, 20 November 2021 (UTC)

Could we not credit him a la Shane McGowan "English born Irish actor. " Both grew up in England, but considered themselves Irish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 87.222.153.116 (talk) 13:25, 7 December 2021 (UTC)