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Archive 1

Romanized spelling

Going by the Hebrew, Petah Tikvah is not usually hyphenated, whereas Tel Aviv usually is in Hebrew. I see no reason to hyphenate it here. Danny

Apologies. I see that the municipal website does hyphenate it in Hebrew. It looks awful (to me), but I would have no problem reverting it if you want. Unfortunately, there is no standard convention. Danny

In the US system (BGN) it's "Petaẖ Tiqwa". In the UN system (GEGN) it's "Petaẖ Tiqva". Israel apparently doesn't have a system unless it's BGN. Google votes for "Petah Tikva". Google gives no clear answer about the hyphen, but as the Hebrew apparently doesn't use one (technically a maqaf), I wouldn't use a hyphen in English. Thank goodness this is a modern place name only, so we don't have to worry about medieval vocalization. Could we list under the Google name with the US and UN spellings as alternatives, and get rid of the rest? It looks like they're there only because of redirects. --Hoziron 03:31, July 20, 2005 (UTC)

I put in a bunch of those alternatives, mostly because they were ones I found on the internet, or even used by official Petah Tikva organizations. Jayjg (talk) 16:00, 20 July 2005 (UTC)

biggest/largest industrial zone

In the entry for Holon we read "Holon has the second biggest industrial zone in Israel after Haifa" For Petah Tikva "Petah Tikva is known for being the city with the second largest industrial sector in Israel (after Haifa)"


Which one is it????

I don't have a source but I believe Petah Tikva's industrial sector is larger than Holon's. Holon's article may be referring to the physical size of the industrial zone (although I think there are a few bigger ones, like in Rishon and that independent industrial zone in the north). I am also rather curious, now that you bring it up. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 14:05, 7 April 2006 (UTC)

Major Update of June 2006

(per User:Ynhockey's remarks on my User talk:D'n page) - Thanks for the timely review, and for catching the direct c&p's I left in. My intention had been to paraphrase and rework the section "marketing" the schools, but being human I forgot to do that at 6 am.

  • Pop & Area Stats in intro: I think we should follow the lead of other Israeli Cities pages (Kfar Saba, Tel Aviv, etc) and include population & area stats in the intro, despite the fact that we have an Israel muni infobox while the others don't. I have referenced the CSA so as not to appear as a c&p ;)
  • Other Stats: I can't find my way around the CSA site, to find demographic and economic data (mean annual income, rank in cost of living/ arnona). help!
  • Sports: I think we need a section on this, covering the three soccer stadia, the professional soccer and basketball teams, etc. I unfortunately know next to nothing about this subject, and hope someone else does.
  • Churches/mosques: I think I know the city pretty well, and I've never seen a church or mosque -- however, I have no other confirmation of my assertion that There are no churches or mosques within the city boundaries. -- could someone verify and/or correct this?
  • pix: I think there is room for the City Hall photo that's in the hebrew version. What's the best way to include it -- copy into Commons and change both inclusions, or can the pic be included from where it is now? Also, it would be good to include Ohion's photo; I'm wondering if the pic on the official website is public domain -- will have to check with the Iriyya on that
  • Founders: the official website has some photos of the Founders; due to their age, could they be considered public domain? One day Real Soon Now I'd like to do Wiki pages on Rav Yoel-Moshe Salomon, Rav Guttman, and Yehoshua Stampfer...
  • Women: Since the Jan 2006, the City has been running a publicity campaign on Important PT Women. It would be great to get over to the Iriyya and get both this info and p.d. pix of these Ladies
  • Helicopter Disaster: the memorial for the 1997 Israeli helicopter disaster is in Sirkin Base; is this relevant to mention?
  • Golden Lines: Golden Lines is in Segula though they have a technical division in K. Matalon

--- Ð’ntalk 12:16, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

  • Population - ok, but we should probably trim that. IMO, things like density and growth shouldn't go in the lead. Then again, any specific section we make for that will be too small.
  • Other stats - I have also been unable to find many other facts on the CBS webstie. I don't think they publish all stats every year. However, please provide a link to the end of 2005 population stats - I have been unable to find those too.
  • Sports - agreed, although I'm personally not interested in soccer or basketball, and don't know much about sports in Petah Tikva as a result.
  • Churches/mosques - I don't know of a single church or mosque either, but if you're not sure about this information, it should be removed until it's confirmed.
  • Pics - might want to move to Commons.
  • Founders/mayor pic - no idea about copyright status. Try checking with the iriya if you can.
  • Women - never heard of that. Any info you can provide will of course be appreciated.
  • Helicopter disaster - maybe it's more relevant to Kfar Sirkin.
  • Golden Lines - that may be rigth (and I may be wrong). However, I am sure they have part of an office building on HaSivim St.
-- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:28, 16 June 2006 (UTC)

Actually Worlds Largest Picnic?

I heard that they broke the record on Yom Haatzmaut (I was there but got there late and was therefore not counted), but I don't know of any sources that confirm or deny this. Anyone know of either? Valley2city 18:58, 17 December 2006 (UTC)

Important edits

Number One: I don't see why there need to be endless variations for spellings for every Hebrew city, plus something that comes out as an empty box on many people's computers. If the name is substantially different, like Safed and Tsfat, or Akko and Acre, then I can see the point, but not writing Petah Tikva in 100 different ways. Number Two: Em Hamoshavot should appear in the heading, translated as Mother of the Colonies. I have been translating books from Hebrew to English on this subject for 30 years. Number Three: The changes in the headings were made to reflect the actual content of what the section is about. Just because some other article on Wikipedia has a section called "leaders" (for example) doesn't mean that it fits for Petah Tikva. Same for the heading called "health." The article itself claims that P.T. has more medical centers than other cities. It does not say that people are more healthy. Number Three: Before removing my edits, maybe someone should compare them to the poor English they were meant to replace. Number Four: Yes, there is a difference between a professional editor and someone who is not, however good the intentions may be. Number Five: Petah Tikva has many interesting and historical sites that are not mentioned here and deserve to be. However, judging from the "welcome" until now, I would not even try to add to this site, because I would obviously be wasting my time. --Gilabrand 11:35, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

Hi Gilabrand. I'm glad you decided to talk this out instead of just leaving. I will address your points one by one:
  1. This avoids confusion, prevents editors from moving articles to ridiculous transliterations like Petakh Tiqva, and most importantly, isn't harmful because it's stashed away in the infobox on the right side of the page. Even if there was no good reason to keep these alternative transliterations, there definitely isn't any good reason to remove them.
  2. Yes, that would be fine, except for the word 'colony'. It is a highly politically-charged word in an Israel-related context, this was the basis for moving an entire major category from Settlements in Israel to Cities, towns and villages in Israel. Moshava has many translations other than 'colony', and in English Petah Tikva is always referred to as Mother of Settlements, not colonies (see also: relevant sections of WP:UE).
  3. This is an arguable point and I will not claim to have the definite answer. However, I believe that since Wikipedia is a work in progress, it is in the nature of Wikipedia to first create relevant sections in articles (as you would like to see them when the article is perfect) and then insert content into those sections according to what the heading is supposed to represent. Therefore, it shouldn't be a problem to have a main heading titled 'Health' and a sub-heading titled 'Hospitals and medical facilities' (or similar). The main heading should be broad though, for future edits (again, as for point #1, even if there was no good reason to keep the heading broad, there isn't a good reason to make its scope more narrow either).
  4. You only actually changed the grammar/style of one paragraph, and I didn't think it was a significant change and assumed it wouldn't be a big deal to revert it with the other edits which were not as good. If this is the main problem you have with my reverts, I will gladly restore your version of said paragraph.
  5. Might be, but credentials which cannot be verified should not be flashed on Wikipedia. If you're interested, I have also commercially translated many texts to English (though usually from Russian), but not for 30 years. I don't think it's relevant to the discussion on how to improve this article though. See also: Essjay controversy.
  6. Hopefully you will change your mind in the future. I live in this town and would like to see the article on it improved very much.
— Ynhockey (Talk) 12:19, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I have just looked at your edits again and see another issue - while the lead you wrote has better English style, it is actually somewhat misleading. I mean this: Petah Tikva covers an area of 39 square kilometers (15 square miles) - this misleads the reader into thinking that the built-up Petah Tikva actually covers that area, while in reality it does not. This is just the jurisdiction (שטח שיפוט) of the city; the built-up area is much smaller. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:24, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
Agricultural colony is the term that was used in those days, while the word "settlement" is the one that is loaded with associations in Israel. We are talking about a moshava, not a hityashvut. Colonies were established at that time all over the world, and every "self-respecting" country had colonies - Dutch, English, French, etc. If you have a problem with a sentence not covering every sense of the meaning you intended, I understand that, but your response was a blanket revert of everything I had done - and that I don't accept. I am always ready to add info to get the point across, but not at the expense of writing incomprehensible English. In the 39 sq. kilometer sentence, for instance, instead of deleting the whole thing, you could have added the word "built-up," or whatever to refine the sentence. Also, I think that miles and kilometers are more than sufficient for conveying the area of a city. Dunams is an agricultural term that means nothing to most readers.--Gilabrand 12:41, 22 May 2007 (UTC)
I only worked on the first few paragraphs, but I think the paragraph about schools needs to be researched more thoroughly and based on solid references. Three hundred schools sounds to me like an incredibly exaggerated figure.

--Gilabrand 12:48, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

I agree that it should be researched better, although 300 doesn't seem exaggerated to me, because it includes pnimiyot, me'onot, heders, haredi schools, private schools, etc. It would be interesting to know however how many actual public schools there are - that would be a much smaller number of course. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 12:59, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

what does this mean?

Could someone please tell me what "fl. in Petah Tikva" means?--Gilabrand 06:06, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

I think it means 'flourished', which is relevant but I admit, strange. I support changing this to something more understandable. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 18:32, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:PetahTiqwaLogo.PNG

Image:PetahTiqwaLogo.PNG is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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Photos

I live in Petah Tikva, and suppose that photos (Photos of Petah Tikva) added recently do not show anything that could appropriately represent modern look of Petah Tikva. Except, maybe, the bridge - but still photos of it could be better. Stansult 11:34, 3 October 2007 (UTC)

City Name

The official name is Petach Tikva - the name of the article should be changed accordingly. Deror 16:23, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

There is no "official" name in English. There are various transliterations, chosen by whatever secretary happens to be around when they print up the stationary. The current spelling is as good as any. There is no "het" in English, and no agreed upon equivalent for that. Some people write h, some people write ch, some people write x, some people write h with a dot under it. --Gilabrand 16:39, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The Israeli Central Bureau Statistics uses the official transliteration of Petah Tiqwa, the municipality has a different "offical" version of Petach Tikva - it should be either of those and not the one currently used. Deror 16:49, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
Well, I disagree, for the reasons stated above. The spelling of Hebrew place names is entirely arbitrary. You will find the same name spelled ten different ways, even on the muncipality sites.--Gilabrand 17:15, 4 December 2007 (UTC)
The municipality wouldn't have registered the domain petah-tikva.muni.il if they didn't think this was the spelling at the time. However, Gilabrand makes an absolutely correct point when she says that the 'official' name is whatever is chosen by whatever secretary happens to be around at the time. When there's a clear official name, it can be used, but otherwise, see WP:COMMONNAME, as in this case. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:20, 4 December 2007 (UTC)

Em HaMoshavot

I disamgibuated this by linking to the moshava article. While moshava is often translated as 'colony', today this is mostly a deprecated term and more and more translators have begun to use the term 'settlement', in light of POV (neutrality) problems with the word 'colony' in the post-colonial world. A single external source, even if it satisfies WP:RS, has little bearing on the name/translation/transliteration that should be used on Wikipedia - see WP:NC and especially WP:COMMONNAME. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:44, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

Another thing: In the Even Shoshan definition for Moshava (concise Even Shoshan, 2004, p. 487), the definition for 'colony' (a state governed by an outside power) is clearly separated from the definition for a farming village, as used in the context of Petah Tikva. -- Ynhockey (Talk) 17:48, 12 September 2008 (UTC)

first familys in petach tikva

the first five familys who came to petach tikva was related cuz the wifes was sysres, one of them was never posted in the hystory of the city, his name HANOCH ZUNDEL SALANT he was my grand father father , the wife died in reshon le ztion , and barried next to the old synagog in the middle of the city, he died in petac tikva from maleria i think, my grand father was 13 when his father died his sybiling went to america he went to hungary and lived ther until 1959 when the hungarian gov. kicked him out, that saved his life and my grand mother, he came to petach tikva where his cusin SHTAMPER was the mayer, i would like to add HANOCH ZUNDEL SALANT to the hystory of the city of petach tikva . — Preceding unsigned comment added by 108.219.229.124 (talk) 22:02, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Famous Residents

I do not know what your criteria for famous residents are, but today I found out from his father's obituary that Benjamin Netanyahu's mother Tzila Segal was born in "Petach Tikva;" and from a short bio that David Ben Gurion's first job in Israel was picking oranges there.

50.0.36.190 (talk) 08:00, 5 August 2014 (UTC)

Distance from Tel Aviv

> ...10.6 km (6.59 mi) east of Tel Aviv. I'm not sure how the distance from Tel-Aviv in the lead was calculated. However, Ramat Hachayal is much closer to Petach Tikva than this. OR looking at Google Maps, shows it is about 1 km. 109.186.94.214 (talk) 01:52, 4 July 2015 (UTC) Roy

The usual way to specify the distance between two cities is the distance between the city centers. Not the distance between their nearest fringes. It has the advantage of rarely changing over time. However, I don't know if this is a Wikipedia style requirement (a place to ask would be Wikipedia talk:Manual of Style). On the other hand, it could be notable that the cities have grown so much that they almost touch, and this could be added in the article somewhere. But make sure you are looking at an official part of TA-Y, not just to part of the larger extended built-up area. Zerotalk 03:56, 4 July 2015 (UTC)


Agreed, the distance in a straight line between centres. Occasionally distances may be given by main road, shortest road, practicable sea-route etc, but if other than a straight line the method must be described. If boundaries of settlements adjoin, whether built up to or not, it would be rather futile giving the distance as zero. SovalValtos (talk) 08:05, 4 July 2015 (UTC)

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Victor Guérin translation

Marom, 2019 writes about Guérin: "On 22 June 1870, French explorer Victor Guérin visited the village, describing it as a small village with a population of 140 persons, and surrounded by fields of watermelon and tobacco (Guérin 1875, 372, actually p. 374: "il renferme quatre cents habitants et est divisé en plusieurs quartiers, soumis chacun à la juridiction d'un cheikh distinct. Alentour, on observe quelques jardins, où croissent, presque sans culture, de délicieuses pastèques."

In short: it looks as if Marom has the numbers wrong (400, not 140), and where does he get the bit about tobacco from?? User:Nishidani: your French is needed... Huldra (talk) 23:12, 26 August 2019 (UTC)

It contains four hundred inhabitants and is divided into several quarters, each under the jurisdiction of a particular sheikh. On the outskirts one can note some gardens where succulent watermelons grow, with hardly any horticultural care.

Thanks! Used in article, Huldra (talk) 21:59, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Hadashot Arkheologiyot articles, where do they belong?

Moved to Fajja (141/165):

  • Haddad, Elie (2009-01-09). "Petah Tiqwa" (121). Hadashot Arkheologiyot – Excavations and Surveys in Israel. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) : It refers to Feja, and gives NIG 19102–7/66585–9; OIG 14102–7/16585–9)
  • Gorzalczany, Amir (2005-11-28). "Petah Tiqwa, Mahane Yehuda" (117). Hadashot Arkheologiyot – Excavations and Surveys in Israel. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) NIG 19024–5/66519–24; OIG 14024–5/16519–24), but refers to Kaplan and Cohen at Fajja


  • Moved to Kfar Avraham (looks slightly west of Fajja, at (140/165)? on Wikipedia, but north of Fajja, according to the hadashot-esi.org.il):
  • Bouchenino, Aviva (2012-12-24). "Petah Tiqwa, Kefar Abraham" (124). Hadashot Arkheologiyot – Excavations and Surveys in Israel. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) (119147–94/666373–80)
  • Elisha, Yossi (2011-11-28). "Petah Tiqwa, Kefar Abraham" (123). Hadashot Arkheologiyot – Excavations and Surveys in Israel. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) 19125–35/66644–60
  • Nagorsky, Alla (2015-11-16). "Petah Tiqwa, Kefar Avraham" (127). Hadashot Arkheologiyot – Excavations and Surveys in Israel. {{cite journal}}: Cite journal requires |journal= (help) 191005–26/665910–34


  • Firstly: To me it looks as if there is a typo in the first NIG number in Bouchenino, 2012?
  • Secondly, some of the Kfar Avraham articles looks awfully close to Fajja ..Nagorsky, 2015 has identical grid (if we had only counted 3 numbers.) Shall we treat Kfar Avraham/Fajja as one area?
  • Thirdly, shall me move the other Mahane Yehuda articles (see below) to Fajja, too? Mahane Yehuda is south of Kfar Avraham, south−west of Fajja. Comments? Huldra (talk) 21:59, 2 September 2019 (UTC)



    • Looking through the other articles (still in the article): they look as if they should all remain there. The Kh. Mulabbis places are (roughly!) where the SWP put Mulebbis; 2−3 km NW of Fajja, Huldra (talk) 23:25, 2 September 2019 (UTC)

Removals of non-Jewish history

User:Gilabrand: those paragraphs you removed were all sources referred to in Marom, 2019.

Also, AFAIK you are still topic banned from the I/P area. IMO, removing sourced non-Israeli history from the article breaks that topic ban. If you do it again, expect me to file an AE report, Huldra (talk) 22:02, 6 November 2019 (UTC)

Two new additions about history

There have been two additions about history in these edits, but I am a bit befuddled, for the following reasons:

  1. "In 1478 CE (883 AH), the Mamluk Sultan of Egypt, Qaitbay, endowed a quarter of its revenues to two newly established institutions: Madrasa Al-Ashrafiyya in Jerusalem, and a mosque in Gaza."
    I don't have full access to the source, and probably can't understand this sentence for that reason. However, it doesn't appear to be related to Mulabbis, let alone Petah Tikva. Does it say that Mulabbis's revenues were used to build two institutions? If so, what does that mean exactly? Tax revenues? A central body for exporting its goods? It's also unclear how any revenues from a tiny village could cover the costs of at least one major institution in Jerusalem, when nothing of the sort was built in Mulabbis.
  2. "In 1863 Victor Guérin noted about "El−Mouennis": "It contains four hundred inhabitants and is divided into several quarters, each under the jurisdiction of a particular sheikh. On the outskirts one can note some gardens where succulent watermelons grow, with hardly any horticultural care.""
    el-Mouennis is Al-Shaykh Muwannis, it's even made clear from the source that it's not the same place as "Melebbes". Why is this information here?

—Ynhockey (Talk) 13:44, 7 November 2019 (UTC)

Ynhockey, if you don't have the Marom article, I can mail it to you, if you like. On p. 138 in that article it says: "During the 15th century, Mulabbis was counted among the villages governed from al-Ramla, and thus connected with the social and economic milieu of the Ono Valley. In 883 AH (1478 CE), Sultan Al-ashraf Sayf ad-Din Qaitbay (r. 1468– 1496 CE) endowed a quarter of its revenues to two religious institutions which he established: Al-Madrasa al-Ashrafia in Jerusalem and a mosque in Gaza (al-Khatib 2007, 41; compare: Salahiya 1999, 231)."
As for the Guerin, Marom writes (on p. 139) "On 22 June 1870, French explorer Victor Guérin visited the village, describing it as a small village with a population of 140 persons, and surrounded by fields of watermelon and tobacco (Guérin 1875, 372)."
So you are right: I messed up on the Guerin ref, and added from p. 374, and not 372. I will fix it ASAP...as you can see above (under "Victor Guérin translation"): I had trouble understanding where Guérin got the tobacco from: no wonder, when I looked at the wrong page! Huldra (talk) 21:37, 7 November 2019 (UTC)
Hi Huldra,
Regarding the first text, thanks for the quote from the original source. It still makes no sense to me though. I think that without talking about said revenues, i.e. where they came from and what the order of magnitude was, is necessary to explain this sentence. Otherwise it just seems illogical plucked out of context. If the source contains more information, I believe we can incorporate it. Otherwise it should be removed. If you can email me the entire article that would be nice.
Thannks, Ynhockey (Talk) 13:41, 9 November 2019 (UTC)
Ynhockey, the text is pretty standard: the revenue referred to is the total revenue from Mulabbis.
When the revenue went to a waqf, it is relatively rare for the waqf to be identified today, that would only happen for the large and important endowments (like Haseki Sultan Imaret, or Sidna Ali Mosque (where the revenue from Apollonia–Arsuf went to.)) So I think it is very notable that the endowment for this place is identified (and still exists): Madrasa Al-Ashrafiyya.
As for not mentioning the amount (in akçe) that went to these endowments: Few used to mention that, up until about 5-10 years ago. Walid Khalidi does not mention the amount in his 1992 book. Interestingly, you can see the development in Adam Zertal "The Manasseh Hill Country Survey" (2004-2019): in the first books he never mention the amount, in the last 2 (or is it 3?) books he mentions it. The Amy Singer books about the Haseki Sultan Imaret never mention any amounts; I think there was quite a task just identifying which village's revenue went to the Imaret! Alas, with or without mentioning the amount in akçe: Zertal, Singer ....and Marom are RS.
As for the 2 refs that Marom gives:
Al-Khatib, M. ‘U., 2007. The Islamic Awqaf (Endowments) in Palestine During Mamluki Period (648–923 h/1250–1517 ad), Damascus: Dar al-Kutub al-Thaqafiya.
Salahiya, M. ‘I., 1999. Sijjil Aradi Alwiya (Safad, Nablus, Ghazza wa-Qada al-Ramla): Hasab al-Daftar raqam 312 ta’rikihi 964 H / 1556 AD, Amman, University of Amman.
..I think I'll pass on the Salahiya article, but perhaps User:Zero0000 can help up with Al-Khatib?
Huldra (talk) 21:37, 9 November 2019 (UTC) PS you have mail about the Marom article
I think I don't have access to Al-Khatib's book. I don't find the text surprising, as it doesn't say that the revenue from the village was enough to build the institutions but only that it was directed to those institutions. That was a perfectly common arrangement. Zerotalk 00:46, 10 November 2019 (UTC)
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