Jump to content

Talk:Pederasty in ancient Greece

Page contents not supported in other languages.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

SmallJarsWithGreenLabels why did you remove my edit that had direct ancient Greek text citation?

[edit]

He reverted it with the illogical reasoning of "please do not take this revert as an attempt to push particular views. Feel free to re-add information with proper"

These are not my particular views, that was the law in ancient Athens, pederasty was punishable by death. This is not an opinion but a hardcore fact according to direct ancient Greek texts.

Almost all the misleading citation sources on this page dont even mention direct ancient Greek texts and their etymology.

Please do not remove direct ancient Greek texts evidence just because of your opinion and the opinions of people that did not even use direct ancient Greek texts and etymology as evidence. Itisme3248 (talk) 20:28, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

The whole page is literally filled with misconceptions based on mistranslations of ancient Greek texts by non-Greek people. This page is extremely misleading and only reflects the biased view of modern western "historians" who simply read badly translated ancient Greek texts. None of the sources in this page actually cite direct ancient Greek text evidence and etymology. Itisme3248 (talk) 20:32, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
There wont be many secondary sources to add because western historians simply try to find evidence of "pederasty" based on mistranslated texts. Actual Greeks dont bother making peer reviewed papers on this because the ancient Greek texts are clear, pederasty was banned. Itisme3248 (talk) 20:36, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Note: I have begun a discussion about this at itisme's talk page. small jars tc 22:04, 23 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Creador de Mundos is the user who changed the meaning of Xenophon's texts to imply that the relationship was partially pederastic/sexual. That is very suspicious that someone would suddenly sneakily change the meaning like that. He kept adding little things, twisting the meaning of other stuff too. Very suspicious.
https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece&diff=prev&oldid=901255543 Itisme3248 (talk) 00:47, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I have reverted to the last version before Itisme3248's edits. Their edits have repeatedly misquoted the law as cited in Against Timarchus: the text they inserted included the line ...shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth and he shall be punished with death, but the edition cited does not include the clause and he shall be punished with death. This is such an egregious POV-pushing fabrication that I have simply reverted to the last version before these edits started. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 09:54, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
To be clear, he shall be punished with death does appear in the cited edition, but further up the passage and for a different but apparently related crime. This could then be put down to a bad and disorganised writing process as much as intentional distortion, though I'm not saying the latter is unlikely either. small jars tc 11:02, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
Why are you lying? You are 100% lying. Read the texts:
[The teachers of the boys shall open the school-rooms not earlier than sunrise, and they shall close them before sunset. No person who is older than the boys shall be permitted to enter the room while they are there, unless he be a son of the teacher, a brother, or a daughter's husband. If any one enter in violation of this prohibition, he shall be punished with death. The superintendents of the gymnasia shall under no conditions allow any one who has reached the age of manhood to enter the contests of Hermes together with the boys. A gymnasiarch who does permit this and fails to keep such a person out of the gymnasium, shall be liable to the penalties prescribed for the seduction of free-born youth. Every choregus who is appointed by the people shall be more than forty years of age.]”
There were penalties for seducing the youth. Nothing is fabricated.
The whole wiki page is pushing propaganda without even citing actual ancient texts. Yes there were gay pederasts in ancient Greece but it was limited to a small elite circle just like Epstein island, you can't claim that modern Americans are openly pederasts. Itisme3248 (talk) 18:36, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
The actions ofCaeciliusinhorto-public appear to be biased. Why did you not fix the actual distortion made by this person? https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece&diff=prev&oldid=901255543
"but only if it was based around friendship and love and not solely around physical, sexual attractin"
Xenophon did not say at all that "if its a bit sexual its ok, just not too much". He straight up said there must be no sexual attraction. Itisme3248 (talk) 18:38, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I request that Caeciliusinhorto-public be punished for accusing me of fabricating a real quote. He is obviously biased and lies in order to remove the original text
Here is evidence of the text:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Perseus:text:1999.01.0002:speech=1:section=12
Original ancient Greek text: http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/text?doc=Aeschin.+1+12&fromdoc=Perseus%3Atext%3A1999.01.0001 Itisme3248 (talk) 18:50, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Itisme3248: there is a snowball's chance in hell that any of your percieved problems with the article will be solved through the course of action you are currently pursuing. Caeciliusinhorto did not lie and personal attacks are unacceptable. Your main argument, that the article should be based directly on ancient Greek texts, flies in the face of policies and guidlines (WP:OR & WP:RS) that you have apparently yet to read. small jars tc 20:08, 24 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I explained on my blog of why this wiki page is based on misconception by secondary inaccurate sources.
https://genes-of-the-ancients.blogspot.com/2023/04/the-myth-of-openly-ancient-greek.html Itisme3248 (talk) 03:34, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
@Peirapus: As I have already pointed out in both my edit summaries and on this talkpage thread, the content that you have reverted back into the article misrepresents the primary sources it claims to quote. Please self-revert and join the discussion here. Caeciliusinhorto (talk) 19:45, 26 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]
It does not misrepresent anything at all, matter of fact the so called "sources" of this wiki are irrelevant books made by biased authors who misrepresented everything based on mistranslations of ancient Greek texts. Itisme3248 (talk) 00:17, 11 January 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Talking about Pederasty in ancient Greece Wikipedia Article

[edit]

hello there main talk page. a wikipedia user by Zenomonoz (talk) , have made a mistake reverting many times on these edits i did and already informed him. I did not do any 'good faith' edits, i was trying to improve the edited words because i did a lot of reseach and evidence on it by definition, the edits in the article are inaccurately blatant misleading and uninformative interpretation and does not match up to it at all, it is also very anti-LGBT/Homophobic to label it that way since it is considered a very terrible gross, disgusting and repulsive thing to refer pederasty as a so-called 'romantic' and 'couples' relationship, guess what, it is not at all related but unrelated and also again considered aleady inherently dangerous, heinous and despicable acts of the worst sex crimes by the worst sex offenders against all of humanity's history that will always be based on the corrupted coercive-grooming strategies and tactics to harm everyone based on their actions that is an unjustifiable offensive sex crime against humanity's minors and like i said previously that there is no such thing as so-called 'romantic love' and 'couples' labels on pederasty are not loving but harmful acts in it, every act of it will be an inherently and dangerously heinous threating forced of abusive power, corruption and coercion to make their way to rape all people, the pederasts are heinously dangerous threating despicable sex offenders trying to groom and coerce everyone in their own grossly fiendish sick and twisted behaviors and are the most disgusting and repulsive insane perverts, twisted sickos and abusive monsters out there to do their sex acts to rape their preyed victims. Another thing, try talking to the user about it and putting this message i have sent to you already to the main article's talk page there and discussing it to him with the main administrative editors and other editors on it to challenge it on whether this is alright or whatever okay. ps he is probably the hypocrite and misunderstood one here and try restoring it back okay, thank you for your service. User contributions for 112.202.60.98. good luck :), and try looking at the edit histories to restore it back it is alright. thanks again :0 :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.202.60.98 (talk) 06:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

hello there User Zenomonoz, i think you have made a mistake. I did not do any 'good faith' edits, i was trying to improve the edited words because i did a lot of reseach and evidence on it by definition, the edits in the article are inaccurately blatant misleading and uninformative interpretation and does not match up to it at all, it is also very anti-LGBT/Homophobic to label it that way since it is considered a very terrible gross, disgusting and repulsive thing to refer pederasty as a so-called 'romantic' and 'couples' relationship, guess what, it is not at all related but unrelated and also again considered aleady inherently dangerous, heinous and despicable acts of the worst sex crimes by the worst sex offenders against all of humanity's history that will always be based on the corrupted coercive-grooming strategies and tactics to harm everyone based on their actions that is an unjustifiable offensive sex crime against humanity's minors and like i said previously that there is no such thing as so-called 'romantic love' and 'couples' labels on pederasty are not loving but harmful acts in it, every act of it will be an inherently and dangerously heinous threating forced of abusive power, corruption and coercion to make their way to rape all people, the pederasts are heinously dangerous threating despicable sex offenders trying to groom and coerce everyone in their own grossly fiendish sick and twisted behaviors and are the most disgusting and repulsive insane perverts, twisted sickos and abusive monsters out there to do their sex acts to rape their preyed victims. Another thing, try talking about it and putting this message i have sent to you already to the main article's talk page there and discussing it to the main administrative editors and other editors on it to challenge it on whether this is alright or whatever okay. ps you probably are the hypocrite and misunderstood one here and try restoring it back okay, thank you for your service. User contributions for 112.202.60.98. good luck :0 :) — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.202.60.98 (talk) 06:35, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]

I'm completely sympathetic to your comment. A few things I've tried to explain in my reverts.
  • Wikipedia is based upon reliable sources, so you can't just inject your own thoughts into the lead. See WP:RS.
  • The lead is a summary of the body of the article, see WP:LEADFOLLOWSBODY. You've injected things that aren't in the body.
  • Wikipedia is not censored, see WP:NOTCENSORED. So it does cover topics many find unsavoury.
  • The article already does include clarification that pederasty is inappropriate and illegal under our modern understanding.
I didn't write the article, by the way. The question is, what do the WP:RS (reliable sources) say?
Zenomonoz (talk) 06:51, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hello again, i did already a lot of researched evidence on the reliable sources and the i already read these set of policies and things related to wikipedia, how about this restore the proper words that actually made accurate statements and pederasty is considered again for crying out loud very Anti-LGBT and Homophobic to label it 'romantic' and 'related' to these so-called 'couples' and there is no inherent moral values related to LGBT rights and the general worldwide LGBT Community on a international level, this is related to controversial practices that are considered very detrimentally harmful to spread inaccurate information and place misinterpreted statements, i was just doing my best to help just like are doing, and besides these do not at all look very bad, and i was being informative about this subject and i know a lot of these researches based on like i just stated previously, once again, thank you for your service and good luck. :) 112.202.60.98 (talk) 07:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Can you add your sources to the edits you've made? Joyous! Noise! 03:30, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
the reliable sources are already there, i just revised the edited words properly okay, thank you and good luck. :) 112.202.60.98 (talk) 03:36, 26 October 2024 (UTC)[reply]
Please discuss your wording changes in small chunks. Some of your wording changes are not an improvement. Meters (talk) 07:27, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
hello Meters, if you are out can read this late message, here is a reply and please read the main article's talk page about pederasty in ancient greece that i made to see if it fits in okay, thank you and good luck. :) 112.202.60.98 (talk) 08:35, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
It's really difficult to follow what changes you are actually proposing to make here, but for instance the following are the changes you have proposed to the lead sentence:
Pederasty in ancient Greece was a socially acknowledged romantic relationship construct of cultural practices that were blatantly condoned in the Classical period of ancient Greece, that involves any type of sex act being done between an older male (the erastes) and a younger male (the eromenos) usually in his teens somewhere around his childhood or adolescence before reaching adulthood
Some of this may be an improvement (e.g. the body of the article doesn't describe the erastes/eromenos relationship as "romantic"; neither do the sources cited after this sentence in the lead); other parts are clearly not ("blatantly condoned" is definitely not appropriate tone for Wikipedia; I'm not convinced that "childhood or adolescence" is an improvement over "usually in his teens" - the body of the article rather suggests that the eromenos was in his teens or twenties). Some changes just make the article no longer make sense, such as the final clause of this sentence: The English word "pederasty" in its present-day usage may have implied various laws against child sex abuse regarding minors in certain jurisdictions, but under Athenian law for instance, have both legally recognized between lawful consent and licit age as many reasonable factors in regulating all forms of sexual activities.
As Meters says, it will be much easier for you to propose changes in small chunks than in big sections like this - it's unlikely that anyone is going to try to rewrite your entire proposed new lead into coherent English all at once. Caeciliusinhorto-public (talk) 12:15, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
late reply: hello and thank you for the information and good luck, peace out yo. :) 112.202.60.98 (talk) 14:10, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Message: Here is an better Improvement for the Pederasty in ancient Greece Wikipedia Article and please accept and place my revised edits, and also a completely permanent total ban and prohibition using anti-LGBT, anti-Gay and pro-Homophobic edits based on gay men and LGBT relationships in general and is unrelated to homosexuality, especially for males

[edit]

i am sorry if i made any mistakes, please pardon my clumsiness and i did not try to disrupt anything okay, i was trying to help fix it to be more accurate and please do not ever use homosexuality and gay men and anything related to the LGBT community in this article and never ever use them because they are very inappropriate, repulsive, disgusting, and dangerously anti-LGBT, anti-Gay and pro-Homophobia and it is harmful to LGBT rights as a whole it will not be tolerated. END OF STORY AND DISCUSSION, NO BUTS ABOUT IT, NO MEANS NO OKAY. PPPEEERRRIIIOOODDD!!!, also here is the improved good version if you would allow it and place it in the article please, thank you and good luck.

A pederastic relationship between two males on the symposium both sharing a couch together. It has been commented that both figures are having their private moment with themselves during the Classical antiquity. A mural depiction inside a façade wall from the Tomb of the Diver fresco in the former ancient greek city of Paestum in the Italian peninsula. 470 BCE

Pederasty in ancient Greece was the socially acknowledged construct of cultural practices in the Classical period of ancient Greece that involves a dominant and submissive relationship between an older male partner (erastes) and a younger male partner (eromenos) usually in his adolescence before reaching adulthood. It was also characterized throughout much of Greek history during the Archaic and Classical Greek periods within the Greco-Roman world.[1][2][3]

Two frescos displayed inside a museum. Both depicting a pederastic orgy at the symposium. The frescos being shown are from the Tomb of the Diver. The top image from the north wall. The bottom image from the south wall. 470 BCE
A depiction of pederastic ogies on an attic greek pottery. A boy at the centre is holding an oenochoe with his left hand and giving a kylix to a person on a couch with his right hand. Attic kylix. 460-450 BCE

Some scholars and historians have located the ancient greek origin in the initiation ritual, particularly the rites of passages in the Crete, where it was associated with entrance into military life and the religion of Zeus.[4] It has no formal existence in the Homeric epics, and may have developed in the late 7th century BC as an aspect of Greek homosocial culture,[5] which was characterized also by athletic and artistic nudity, delayed marriage for aristocrats, symposia, and the social seclusion of women.[6]

Ancient Greek literature and philosophy have both expressed idealization and criticism of pederastic acts.[7] The argument has recently been made that idealization was universal in the Archaic period; criticism began in Athens as part of the general Classical Athenian reassessment of Archaic culture.[8]

Many scholars and historians on this subject have debated on the role or extent on these topics and issues based on pederasty, which is likely to have varied based on a local custom and individual inclination.[9] The English word "pederasty" in its present-day usage might have implied various laws to combat against sexual abuse being committed towards minors in certain jurisdictions, but under Athenian law for instance, have both legally recognized between lawful consent and licit age as reasonable factors for regulating all forms of sexual activities.[10] — Preceding unsigned comment added by 112.202.60.98 (talk) 09:38, 1 Nov 2024 (UTC)

References

  1. ^ Kenneth James Dover (1989). Greek Homosexuality. Cambridge, Massachusetts: Harvard University Press. p. 118. ISBN 0674362616.
  2. ^ C.D.C. Reeve, Plato on Love: Lysis, Symposium, Phaedrus, Alcibiades with Selections from Republic and Laws (Hackett, 2006), p. xxi online; Martti Nissinen, Homoeroticism in the Biblical World: A Historical Perspective, translated by Kirsi Stjerna (Augsburg Fortress, 1998, 2004), p. 57 online; Nigel Blake et al., Education in an Age of Nihilism (Routledge, 2000), p. 183 online.
  3. ^ Nissinen, Homoeroticism in the Biblical World, p. 57; William Armstrong Percy III, "Reconsiderations about Greek Homosexualities," in Same–Sex Desire and Love in Greco-Roman Antiquity and in the Classical Tradition of the West (Binghamton: Haworth, 2005), p. 17. Sexual variety, not excluding paiderastia, was characteristic of the Hellenistic era; see Peter Green, "Sex and Classical Literature," in Classical Bearings: Interpreting Ancient Culture and History (University of California Press, 1989, 1998), p. 146 online.
  4. ^ Robert B. Koehl, "The Chieftain Cup and a Minoan Rite of Passage," Journal of Hellenic Studies 106 (1986) 99–110, with a survey of the relevant scholarship including that of Arthur Evans (p. 100) and others such as H. Jeanmaire and R.F. Willetts (pp. 104–105); Deborah Kamen, "The Life Cycle in Archaic Greece", The Cambridge Companion to Archaic Greece (Cambridge University Press, 2007), pp. 91–92. Kenneth Dover, a pioneer in the study of Greek homosexuality, rejects the initiation theory of origin; see "Greek Homosexuality and Initiation," in Que(e)rying Religion: A Critical Anthology (Continuum, 1997), pp. 19–38. For Dover, it seems, the argument that Greek paiderastia as a social custom was related to rites of passage constitutes a denial of homosexuality as natural or innate; this may be to overstate or misrepresent what the initiatory theorists have said. The initiatory theory claims to account not for the existence of ancient Greek homosexuality in general but rather for that of formal paiderastia.
  5. ^ Thomas Hubbard, "Pindar's Tenth Olympian and Athlete-Trainer Pederasty," in Same–Sex Desire and Love in Greco-Roman Antiquity, pp. 143 and 163 (note 37), with cautions about the term "homosocial" from Percy, p. 49, note 5.
  6. ^ Percy, "Reconsiderations about Greek Homosexualities," p. 17 online et passim.
  7. ^ For examples, see Kenneth Dover, Greek Homosexuality (Harvard University Press, 1978, 1989), p. 165, note 18, where the eschatological value of paiderastia for the soul in Plato is noted. For a more cynical view of the custom, see the comedies of Aristophanes, e.g. Wealth 149-59. Paul Gilabert Barberà, "John Addington Symonds. A Problem in Greek Ethics. Plutarch's Eroticus Quoted Only in Some Footnotes? Why?" in The Statesman in Plutarch's Works (Brill, 2004), p. 303 online; and the pioneering view of Havelock Ellis, Studies in the Psychology of Sex (Philadelphia: F.A. Davis, 1921, 3rd ed.), vol. 2, p. 12 online. For Stoic "utopian" views of paiderastia, see Doyne Dawson, Cities of the Gods: Communist Utopias in Greek Thought (Oxford University Press, 1992), p. 192 online.
  8. ^ See Andrew Lear, 'Was pederasty problematized? A diachronic view' in Sex in Antiquity: exploring gender and sexuality in the ancient world, eds. Mark Masterson, Nancy Rabinowitz, and James Robson (Routledge, 2014).
  9. ^ Michael Lambert, "Athens," in Gay Histories and Cultures: An Encyclopedia (Taylor & Francis, 2000), p. 122.
  10. ^ See Osborne following. Gloria Ferrari, however, notes that there were conventions of age pertaining to sexual activity, and if a man violated these by seducing a boy who was too young to consent to becoming an eromenos, the predator might be subject to prosecution under the law of hubris; Figures of Speech: Men and Maidens in Ancient Greece (University of Chicago Press, 2002), pp. 139–140.
Posting the entire section is the exact opposite of what I asked you to do.: Please discuss your wording changes in small chunks. We're not going to compare the article and your proposed version line by line to find all of your changes.
Your header is inappropriate. Please replace it with something neutral and informative.
And discussing a contested edit does not mean posting it to the talk page and then restoring it before there is any discussion, let alone consensus. Meters (talk) 19:01, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]
OP blocked one month. Meters (talk) 21:40, 1 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 10 November 2024

[edit]

Please add in footnote 40 (and in the Selected bibliography): Rafał Matuszewski, "Same-Sex Relations between Free and Slave in Democratic Athens", in D. Kamen & C.W. Marshall (eds.),Slavery and Sexuality in Classical Antiquity (University of Wisconsin Press, 2021), pp. 104–123.

Please add to the Selected bibliography: Matuszewski, Rafał. Eros and sophrosyne: Morality, social behaviour and paiderastia in 4th-century B.C. Athens (Akme. Studia historica no. 10). Warsaw, 2011. Kallistratos007 (talk) 20:11, 10 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Retrieved from "https://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Talk:Pederasty_in_ancient_Greece&oldid=1256618572"