Talk:Paula Vennells/Archive 2

Archive 1

Archive 2

Archive 3

Profit claim

I have removed a claim in the article that the post office moved into making a profit under Vennells. It is referred to above in an unsuccessful semi-protected edit status request by @Mdonkin. That request was denied by @EphemeralPerpetuals (they/them)talk but my edit here contains no such request. My reasoning is that the sole reference to justify the claim that Vennells moved the post office into profit is a press release by the post office she was CEO of at the time. That does not satisfy WP:Reliable Sources in normal circumstances, but in this case doubly so since the scandal in the UK has exposed that the post office under Vennells routinely lied at the time about very serious issues. The @mdonkin request actually cited a very good (but I don't know if it's WP:RS) source arguing that the post office did not truly move into a profit that year, but in any event I have looked (on Google, not WP:OR) for a reliable reference to the effect that the post office did move into profit that year and I can find no such reference. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 08:59, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Has the Post Office not been obliged to publish annual accounts, like any other UK business? Would they be considered WP:PRIMARY? Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 09:09, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, @Martinevans123, they are really interesting questions. I am a long way from being an expert, but I think scrutiny of the PO accounts at Companies House would probably be OR. It's a really interesting thought, though. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 09:37, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I see that DeFacto has now found a good source anyway. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:41, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

and it is disappointing that an obviously genuine fact is deleted like this. If the querying editor felt strongly about it, the right course was to find a better source. MapReader (talk) 09:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, @MapReader, thanks for your comments. Please assume good faith. I also recommend reviewing WP:Reliable Sources. You have reverted my edit to re-insert what you describe as; "a genuine fact" (which is of course a tautology). Your new reference is to an online business PR publication which invites readers to upload the text of own stories. The personnel named at the website are all from a PR background - none are from a journalistic background. Such publications simply take online content from press releases, and from PR officials (hence the upload facility) from and at the entities they report upon. The purpose of the Wikipedia reliable sources articles is to ensure that publications which lack any provenance are not used to justify specious claims. In particular, the status of vendors and e-commerce providers is relevant here. Business Leader UK has no charges or prices available; it is an online commerce entity which exists to sell products (e.g. the workshops it self-advertises). It is very far from an acceptable source. Notably, the claims it makes are not repeated in any non-deprecated source I can find. Whilst, on the other hand, the post office is the largest story in the UK at the moment because its officials lied about much of the most important aspects of its operations. It has been reported, for example, in non-deprecated sources such as the Guardian and Financial Times (I cite at the end of this note as I understand linking to an external source is not acceptable) I should stress, that the post-office may have erred in calculating its tax liability in respect of monies recovered from postmasters over the precise period you refer to. The 'error' is far larger than the profit claimed in post office PR and so even on the post office's own terms those years would return a loss. The claim that Vennells returned the post office to profit is very far from a; "genuine fact" and is indeed not supported by any non-deprecated source. It should be removed, in my opinion. https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2024/jan/13/post-office-could-face-100m-bill-over-compensation-tax-relief-says-expert#:~:text=It%27s%20also%20unlawful%20%E2%80%93%20so%20the,to%20postmasters%20as%20tax%20deductible. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 15:53, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, @Martinevans123. I honestly do not think s/he has found a good source. See my comments below. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 15:54, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

So I guess your comments above are also addressed to DeFacto? Is it true to say that in the past, people genuinely believed that the PO made a profit of £35 million in 2017/18? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 17:09, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think that is likely true. I can't find a reliable reference to it in a decent source, but if the post office reported it as a press release then it would, at the time, have been accepted as true by reliable agencies. I guess one form of words could be something like "at the time, the post office claimed it had moved into profit that year..." but we'd still need a non-deprecated secondary source, I think. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 17:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 13 January 2024

Change "During her time as CEO, the Post Office went from losing £120 million a year to making a profit." to "During her time as CEO, the Post Office went from losing £120 million a year to _apparently_ making a profit."

There is now a question as to whether the Post Office actually made a profit or if this was all or in part based on illegally claiming tax relief on compensation to which it was not entitled: https://twitter.com/DanNeidle/status/1745920610893434993/photo/1 Mdonkin (talk) 22:38, 13 January 2024 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. EphemeralPerpetuals (they/them)^talk 02:00, 14 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi, @EphemeralPerpetuals. I've commented on this further down the page at some length. @Mdonkin correctly noted that a post office press release is not an acceptable source for a claim. You have asked him/her to provide a reliable source, but this is surely incorrect - the empirical claim that a post office press release is not acceptable is confirmed by simple fact of observation. As it happens, I can find no non-deprecated source which justifies this claim and plenty which suggest that it can not be viwed as true given the now legally accepted unreliability of post-office self-reporting during the time in question. The claim should surely be removed simply because it should not be there in the first place, having had no non-deprecated source to justify it. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 16:01, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Hi @Charlie Campbell 28 - I'd like to apoligise for making a rash decision, this is not an area I'm well versed in. I simply saw a Twitter link, deemed that to not meet WP:VERIFY and moved on. Would you like me to strike out my "not done"? I wouldn't feel confident editing this page as I lack the background knowledge and don't aim to get into an edit war in which I don't have proper knowledge of the topic. EphemeralPerpetuals (they/them)^talk 16:28, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

That's super nice of you, @EphemeralPerpetuals. I think, to be honest, it's probably best to leave it now as it's been superseded by the latest discussion. Also, it was a semi-protected edit request and I've no idea if that would have been in order. Thanks so very much! Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 17:52, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

I agree. Charlie Campbell 28 (talk) 16:01, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Bad faith editing by Martinevans123, KJP1 and Ghmyrtle

Not relevant to this article
The following discussion has been closed. Please do not modify it.
The fact that Camilla and Charles are not married was mentioned briefly in the course of a relevant discussion about transparency in the honours system informing the editing of this article. During that relevant discussion I answered the relevant question posed by the last person to contribute before myself. My link was hidden, although a link quoting the same wording from the same source supplied by another was not. Apart from the wilful disregard of one of the pillars ("Assume Good Faith") there are a number of breaches of the Universal Code of Conduct. KJP1 12:46 - A key theme of the discussion was the need for the utmost integrity of the people who bear honours KJP1 13:28 - A serious personal attack in breach of Articles 2.1, 2.2 and 3.1 of the Universal Code of Conduct. Distinguished King's Counsel Lord Pannick and Law Professors Stephen Cretney and Rebecca Probert have written academic papers proving that Charles and Camilla are not married. Nobody has written a paper proving the opposite. No members of the royal family have married in register offices - free salamanders would not tempt them. Yet KJP1 describes my brief aside as a "rant". If Britain's Best Barristers are wrong why did Camilla, Charles, Christopher Chope and Antonia Romeo feel the need to mount a Watergate style cover-up? KJP1 does not appear to be very competent [1]. He accuses me of sockpuppetry in violation of Article 2.1 of the Universal Code of Conduct. KJP1 12:44 - Three minutes after I removed some words from one of my comments he added them back. Editors may not edit other people's comments under any circumstances. This was abuse of rollback, which may only be used to revert vandalism. The same applies to Martinevans123 (12:35, 2 minutes, 13:13, 3 minutes). KJP1 13:44 - A serious personal attack. One of my ancestors wrote a medical textbook and was superintendent of a large hospital. What medical qualifications does he have? Ghmyrtle 13:00 - When a comment has been removed from a user's talk page, adding it back is harassment Notwithstanding that the above two appear to live in --------shire (information which has been self-posted) KJP1's 47 edits to User talk:Ghmyrtle satisfy me that they are distinct individuals. Here's the timeline: 2016 - British government argues that the consent of Parliament is not needed for Britain to exit the EU. Pannick argues in the Supreme Court that it is. He wins. 2016 - British government pressures the Queen to prorogue parliament in an unprecedented act before the summer recess to prevent Britain's exit from the EU being discussed. Pannick argues in the Supreme Court this is unlawful. He wins. 2005 - British government argues that the proposed register office marriage of Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles is lawful. Writing in The Times, Pannick says: It is difficult to understand how the happy couple can marry in a civil ceremony, as they intend, without causing a right royal nullity. You finish the sentence. 89.240.113.74 (talk) 18:32, 10 February 2024 (UTC) Look who's laying down the law [2]. 89.240.113.74 (talk) 18:39, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

IP 89.240.113.74, if you believe any editor's editing here has been "in bad faith", you are of course entitled to report it to WP:AN/I. Regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:57, 10 February 2024 (UTC)

Formally stripped of her CBE

She has been formally stripped of her CBE, https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-68384240 Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 15:46, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

See comments at "RfC on CBE in lead" above? the article has been updated. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 16:19, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

RfC on CBE in lead

How should Paula Vennells's CBE be handled in the lead of this article? A.D.Hope (talk) 19:58, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

• My position is that the lead should mention that Paula Vennels received a CBE in 2019, that she offered to return it in January 2024, but that she retains the honour until the king revokes it. The wording could be something like this:

Vennells was appointed a CBE in 2019; in January 2024 she offered to return the honour, however it can only be revoked by the monarch.

This broadly follows the BBC article which is currently our main source.

A previous version of the lead omitted the return/revocation entirely, but this is not ideal as it is significant information. The current version omits that Vennells remains a CBE until the honour is revoked. This is misleading, as readers unfamiliar with the British honours system are likely to assume that she is no longer a CBE. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:07, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

Just a point of grammar - the word "however" should never follow a comma, and the wording needs to be corrected (link). Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:50, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for pointing that out. Substituting 'but' would resolve the problem, I think. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:55, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

Leave out. For myself, I think the lead should focus on what has made the person notable or famous. Is declining the CBE the event that made her notable? If not, I would add as a separate section in the body, perhaps with the headline CBE Controversy -- where the details of the awarding and declining can be fleshed out in more detail. Personally, I like clean leads. Slacker13 (talk) 18:40, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

• Isn’t a proper RFC supposed to offer a tightly defined question, or proposition, or set of options?

Regardless, I will comment.

The established precedent - Lennon and others - is that the individual’s wish regarding their honour is respected in the infobox and opening sentence of the lead.

That someone has been awarded an honour but decided to reject or return it is notable enough to mention in the lead, especially when the question had attracted interest from over a million people in a petition. Wording that makes clear it is the person’s decision or intent or willingness to reject the award is better than wording that suggests the award hasn’t been made or has been cancelled.

The body of the article can set out the full circumstances, including the specifics around how an honour can be awarded and rejected (or annulled) , which would be too much detail for the lead. MapReader (talk) 20:08, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

An RfC question should be neutral and brief, and the above wording is the best I could do. I hope you agree that it's neutral, if a little vague. I also hope you don't mind if I format our comments to make them easier to distinguish. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:12, 18 January 2024 (UTC)

• As stated in an earlier thread, what is important for the opening section is that she has said that she is returning the CBE. Whether or not she technically still has the CBE, or needs to await a formal decision following a recommendation from the appropriate committee, is a point of lesser importance - one that is addressed in the article, but does not need to be explained in the opening paragraphs. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:02, 18 January 2024 (UTC)
• Procedural note. @A.D.Hope: You should change the RfC question to:

  Should the lead state the following: Vennells was appointed a CBE in 2019; in January 2024 she offered to return the honour, however it can only be revoked by the monarch.

I would support that change; it is neutrally stated and factually accurate. Leaving out that her CBE won't be revoked until the king says so could potentially mislead a reader who doesn't go past the lead into thinking that her offer is effective immediately. voorts (talk/contributions) 04:23, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

I appreciate the suggestion. My hope is that this RfC will settle the wording entirely, however, and focussing the discussion on a single option may make that more difficult. A.D.Hope (talk) 12:54, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

• No objections, although the bit about the monarch could be left out and just explained in main body text. I am surprised it's not still shown in the infobox, but perhaps that's a separate RfC? (I looked at John Lennon and his MBE is not shown, even though it wasn't formally rescinded?) Martinevans123 (talk) 10:42, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

• Present wording looks fine - Dear me, what a lot of ink expended. For me, the current wording, which states she was awarded it in 2019 and, in 2024, expressed her intention to return it, looks fine. It's accurate, and acknowledges her stated intention. I think the legal position - she remains a CBE until the honour is rescinded - should be explained in the body, or in a footnote, for completeness. And on that point, the note should make clear that here, as in almost everything else (let's not go down the Royal Victorian Order rabbit hole), the king acts on the advice of ministers, on this matter the Forfeiture Committee. KJP1 (talk) 15:10, 19 January 2024 (UTC)

  Just to note, the current wording is 'in January 2024 she stated that she was returning the honour'. This does not have the same meaning as 'in 2024 she expressed her intention to return it'. A.D.Hope (talk) 21:14, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

  Not exactly the same meaning, agreed. But I'd see the first as encompassing the second. I think things may become easier here when she has actually "returned it". But she really can't depend on first class post, these days, can she. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:32, 20 January 2024 (UTC)

As of right now it's outright incorrect, if it's true that CBEs cannot be returned. There must be sources somewhere that tell us that without it being OR. If not, it's a case of WP:NOTRIGHT. JM (talk) 07:50, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

It's not "outright incorrect". It correctly reports what she has said. It's Vennells herself who has said something that's technically incorrect. A small footnote could easily explain this. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:29, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

Why bother with a footnote when we could use more accurate language? It's been reported by the BBC that Vennells can't actually return the honour, so we don't need to follow her inaccurate wording exactly. (talk) A.D.Hope (talk) 14:03, 27 January 2024 (UTC)

• I would also go with Present wording looks fine. The full position is spelled out in the article; this is simply a matter of what goes in the lead. Like John Lennon, her intention regarding 'return' of the honour will be respected (i.e. conformed with) in future reporting, and she isn't going to be referred to as "Paula Vennells CBE", regardless of whether the Committee and monarch ever get round to considering the matter or not. That the formal legal position is that an honour can't be rejected is a technicality, proper for mention in the article, but which is not a detail that needs (or justifies) spelling out in the lead. MapReader (talk) 09:46, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

  You would outright oppose any explanatory footnote in the lead section? Martinevans123 (talk) 09:49, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

  A lead is the article summary, or overview; an explanatory footnote isn't appropriate. Also, a reminder that an RfC is a request for comment from a range of editors; it is often unhelpful to jump on any contribution that expresses a contrary view. MapReader (talk) 10:19, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

  I was merely intending just a clarification, not an unhelpful jump. I've seen footnotes used quite successfully in the lead sections of a number of articles. But whatevs. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:31, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

  Just pay some cognisance to WP:BLUD. IMHO the lead is supposed to summarise the essentials as an overview to the article, and footnotes on the minutiae don’t sit happily there. MapReader (talk) 13:58, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

  If anyone else feels "bludgeoned", please let me know. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:04, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

  Politely asking to clarify is not bludgeoning. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:26, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

  There's no rule against an explanatory footnote in the lead, and plenty of high quality articles have them. voorts (talk/contributions) 14:45, 26 January 2024 (UTC)

One question: is Charles and/or the Forfeiture Committee obliged to announce that the honour has been rescinded and if so when? Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:58, 31 January 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

I can think of a number of things Charles is not obliged to do but does nevertheless: Investing a donor in a secret ceremony (these ceremonies are gazetted in advance) Instructing High Court office staff to forge a form and tell the plaintiff that if it isn't returned "the papers would be hurled into the wastebin" and "they would hold on to the expensive court fee." A topical poem: [3] The answer to the question is "yes" 89.240.113.74 (talk) 13:10, 3 February 2024 (UTC) Sorry, "What's the rarest level of human hospital?" Martinevans123 (talk) 18:41, 3 February 2024 (UTC) They never agreed, but the relevant comment is the last one in the discussion (the final sentence is not relevant). 89.240.113.74 (talk) 18:45, 3 February 2024 (UTC) I'm sorry, I have no idea what you mean. Maybe other editors do. Martinevans123 (talk) 18:51, 3 February 2024 (UTC) Quote: If "clinics" are included the number of "specialist hospitals" (in Harley Street and elsewhere) is greatly expanded. News reports overnight say "Charles is doing well" and "the queen is by his side." While I wish him a speedy recovery, she is nothing of the kind. You may recall that a litigant filed a case in the High Court challenging her use of the title because English law specifically prohibits members of the royal family from marrying in register offices. The court office wrote back months later (target time for reply is five working days) to say the papers would be hurled into the wastebin if a court form declaring the case to have no prospect of success was not filed. Naturally they would hold on to the expensive court fee. The Civil Procedure Rules Committee examined the form and declared it to be a forgery. Also overnight it is reported that a jury has ordered Donald Trump to pay 83 million dollars in damages. His lawyer says she will appeal. Even Trump does not attempt to prevent his opponents having their day in court. (emphasis added),

[4] - This says that decisions of the Forfeiture Committee are "usually" published in the London Gazette. As an aside, while searching for that, I also found they say the following, regarding voluntary forfeiture:

"Can an honour be forfeited voluntarily? - An honour can only be forfeited by the decision of His Majesty. However, an individual may decide to renounce their honour voluntarily and take the practical steps required of those that have forfeited. They would still hold the honour unless or until HM King annulled it. Their decision would not be publicised by the Cabinet Office and they would continue to be able to describe themself as holding an honour."

Hope this helps in reaching a conclusion. I think it confirms what we already knew - Ms V can say they don't want it/will give it back, but they can't make it forfeit. KJP1 (talk) 12:19, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Just by way of illustration, here's the London Gazette announcement regarding Jean Else.[5] KJP1 (talk) 13:24, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Well kind of helps, thanks. I mean there's no suggestion at Jean Else that she was intending to hand back her honour. And she was made a Dame, not just a mere CBE? I'm just guessing that the expected sequence of events would be: the Forfeiture Committee make a recommendation; it's signed off by King Charles; the committee (or Cabinet Office?) gets it published in The London Gazette. But I guess there's no real strict timetable for any of these steps. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:36, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

No, just an illustration of the announcement that will, likely, appear in the LG at some, entirely undetermined, date in the future. Nothing more. I see that Jean Else is now practicing as a medium. Life can bring some unexpected turns. KJP1 (talk) 21:32, 4 February 2024 (UTC)

Ah I see. Many thanks for clarifying. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:56, 4 February 2024 (UTC) I'll look forward to eventually meeting Dame Gypsy Paula Petulengro in her new career.

Where did we end up landing with this? Is there any scope for even a slight tweak to '...Vennells stated she wished to return the honour', to indicate that it's not a done deal until Charles strips it? A.D.Hope (talk) 18:22, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

If there's a consensus that it must be referenced in the lead, and I'm not sure there is, then I'd stick a footnote at the end of the last sentence. Something to the effect of: "{{efn|Recipients of an honour can indicate their intention to renounce it, return their [[insignia]] and cease to use the [[Post-nominal letters]]. However, forfeiture only comes into effect following a decision of the monarch, who takes advice on the issue from the prime minister, who will themselves receive a recommendation from the [[Honours Forfeiture Committee]]. The monarch's decision, and an announcement of the cancellation of the honour, will normally be published in the [[London Gazette]].<ref>{{cite web|url=https://honours.cabinetoffice.gov.uk/how-to-nominate/forfeiture/|title=Forfeiture: Can an honour be forfeited voluntarily?|publisher=[[Cabinet Office]]|access-date=11 February 2024}}</ref>}}"

People may well think that's a bit wordy; I'm sure it could be trimmed. KJP1 (talk) 18:52, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

No objection to a footnote. But I think the consensus was that we leave it as is until the forfeiture is officially announced, who knows when. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:35, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

No issue at all, if that’s the consensus. My initial “vote” was stet. KJP1 (talk) 20:19, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

There isn't a consensus that the fact Vennells can't return the honour must be mentioned in the lead, although I do still think that the current wording is inaccurate by omission. It is a bit weird that you can't give up your own honour, I wouldn't expect a reader to know that. A.D.Hope (talk) 20:00, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Good heavens, even Queen Camilla ought to know that? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:24, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

It's not "inaccurate by omission". it accurately states that she has said that she is returning it. That is all that matters for the lead - the technicalities of what she can or can't do can be left to a brief note in the main text. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:05, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

Do you think the average reader knows that British honours can't be returned by their bearers? I do not, therefore the implication that Vennells can return the honour is misleading. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:28, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

If you don't mind me elaborating, imagine if the sentence was instead 'In 2024, Vennells stated she would be returning as CEO of the Post Office'. This is not something she can simply declare she is doing, so we would either add a caveat or, more likely, not include the information in the lead at all. Either would be appropriate. A.D.Hope (talk) 16:53, 13 February 2024 (UTC)

CBE is a minor honour. How important is this anyway, considering that there is current litigation to establish whether Camilla is queen which is mentioned nowhere at Wedding of Prince Charles and Camilla Parker Bowles. For example, writing in Wednesday's Evening Standard Victoria Moss says:

Famously, Katherine Hamnett wore her "58 per cent don't want Pershing" slogan tee. Hamnett - who yesterday shared a video of her hurling her CBE into a wheelie bin in protest over the war in Gaza - did not attend.

There's no big talkpage discussion about the "publicly relinquished her CBE" reference in her article, which is not in the lead, so let's get real about this. High Court office staff hurling papers into the wastebin on the instruction of you know who is very much lead material, so can someone go over to the protected article and add it in? The law relating to royal marriages, which was drafted while the "marriage ceremony" of George IV and Maria Fitzherbert was fresh in the memory, appears to have been worded to cover just this eventuality. Someone should also go over to another protected article, Prince Harry, and remove all those links which claim he lied about the date of his wedding. It was private, same as that of George IV, which was only invalid because his father had not given permission. Queen Elizabeth did give permission for Harry and Meghan to marry. 92.21.199.184 (talk) 12:13, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Extended content

Only got the news this second. Martinevans123 is claiming the above comments are "offtopic." This is nonsense. An examination of how a similar situation is dealt with in another article is very relevant to how it is dealt with in this article. His comment on my talkpage is pure waffle. 92.21.199.184 (talk) 19:23, 23 February 2024 (UTC) On Saturday I linked to the Cabinet Office webpage providing answers to 20 questions ranging from "Can honours be removed?" to "Where are forfeitures published?" My link was removed as "Improper use of talk page" yet five hours later the exact same questions and answers were linked to again and nobody objected. See WP:TPO. 89.240.113.74 (talk) 13:56, 5 February 2024 (UTC) You added this? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:05, 5 February 2024 (UTC) And this? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:07, 5 February 2024 (UTC) This needs to be followed up, as if anything happens to Charles (and God forbid that it does) Camilla will be claiming all the rights of a queen dowager. While a church marriage cannot be challenged in court after the death of either party, the ceremony was legally a "non-qualifying ceremony." Judging by the way Trump's lawyers behave, Camilla's lawyers may be expected to advance the argument nevertheless. One of Charles' first acts as monarch was to appoint Dr John Sorabji as his deputy private secretary, no doubt with just this eventuality in mind. There's a profile of Dr Sorabji here [6]. It notes: He is described as the "general editor" of 'The White Book', a hefty practitioners' text containing the rules relating to civil procedure, and has perviously [sic] advised ... he drafted the forms used in the High Court. This is relevant to the discussion above. If you wish to transfer the entire discussion to Talk:Charles III or Talk:Queen Camilla we would have no objection. 89.240.113.74 (talk) 18:58, 7 February 2024 (UTC) Sorry, but I don't think this is relevant, and it's also WP:CRYSTAL, and should be hatted. You are free to place it at those other two Talk pages, which might be relevant. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:06, 7 February 2024 (UTC) It's fully sourced, as you might expect - for example Civil Procedure Rule Committee Secretariat Freedom of Information response 19 September 2023 (Ref. 230901052). 89.240.113.74 (talk) 19:15, 7 February 2024 (UTC) You've added a link to a "Legal Cheek" article with the headline "King Charles hires UCL law lecturer as deputy private secretary". I don't see any mention of Paula Vennells, or even of the honours system in general. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:19, 7 February 2024 (UTC) Charles secretly ennobling a donor is discussed above. 89.240.113.74 (talk) 19:23, 7 February 2024 (UTC) The discussion is relevant here for the reasons stated, and more so on the talk pages of other articles where it could form the basis of amendments to the articles themselves. We have identified four such articles: Charles III, Christopher Chope, Queen Camilla and Antonia Romeo. However, two of them are protected, so we need your help. Looking through the paperwork, we find that the notice of intention to apply for Judicial Review was served on 16 October 2022 and Sorajbi's appointment was reported two days later. Coincidence? We think not. Two further Freedom of Information disclosures: - 89.240.113.74, 13:20, 8 February 2024 Taking another look through the papers, I see that the prime minister has been informed of the defalcation of his Justice Secretary and Clerk of the Crown in Chancery. Of course, he knew already - you don't throw Judicial Review papers citing the monarch in the bin without getting clearance from the very top. In fact, everyone seems to know - there is a copy letter from Angela Rayner saying she would like to follow up but can't because the plaintiff doesn't live in her constituency. So the last thing Charles is going to do at this point in time is revoke Paula's honour (pot, kettle, etc.), especially with the police peering over his shoulder regarding the Mahfouz Marei Mubarak bin Mahfouz affair. 89.240.113.74 (talk) 11:30, 12 February 2024 (UTC)

References

It seems that this matter is now finally resolved, as the honour has been revoked. I have attempted a summary in the lead section, but happy for other editors to improve it if required. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

About time! I wish they'd think of us poor Wikipedia editors when doing these things, imagine all the bytes we could have saved.

I've simplified the lead wording. I'm quite happy for the detail to be in the body, so long as it's clear Vennells is CBE-less in the lead. A.D.Hope (talk) 15:20, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

15 honours forfeited since August 2023, so she's hardly alone. One wonders if there are other notable individuals whose Wikipedia articles still show an honour that has now been revoked. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:30, 23 February 2024 (UTC)

Role as COO of Post Office Limited

I have added mention of Vennells' role as COO of POL prior to becoming CEO. Without that piece of information, the article could be seen to suggest that she had no responsibility for the Post Office scandal prior to becoming CEO. As the developing story shows, that is clearly not the case. Yes, there is a lot more that we will learn in the near future, but for now the simple fact that she was COO for a while is notable.

The source used is a witness statement in the enquiry. This seems a good source as that fact was not challenged in the hearing. There are also other documents in the hearing that confirm the COO role. If need be, I would expect there to be a newspaper article that could be used as a source. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 20:12, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I tend to agree. But are witness statements in the enquiry regarded as WP:PRIMARY? A newspaper article would probably be preferred. When she comes to give evidence herself, Vennels may deny her responsibility at that time? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Vennells may possibly deny responsibility (not sure how – the main business system has surely got to fall under the remit of a COO – but that's OR), but she cannot deny the job title. At an absolute minimum, we have the date that she became a director of POL (Oct 2010) at[7]. Without something prior to becoming CEO it looks as though she arrived from outside the company.

I am looking for a newspaper article, but the sensation-seeking journalists do not seem to have commonly worked this one out yet. There is probably one somewhere, though.

Anyway, I thought we were allowed to use primary sources with caution? That is the reason for the article saying that it is the evidence of an enquiry witness, not just baldly stating it as a fact. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 20:44, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

I think that is preferable for now. I have no real objections. Evidence is given under oath, after all. Martinevans123 (talk) 20:53, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

We have this source, The Times[8] which says that Vennells joined the Post Office as "network director" in 2007. Listening to the enquiry evidence, we learn that network director is the person in charge of the network of Post Offices. At around this time, also learnt from the enquiry hearings, we hear that the Post Office changed the terminology of their senior positions: Managing Director became CEO, for instance. It is possible, then, that "network director" transitioned into "COO" – or perhaps this was a promotion. It's hard to say. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 21:38, 14 April 2024 (UTC)

Separating resignation of pastoral duties from ordained status

In the first sentence it describes Vennells as an ordained minister. She is not an active minister, she has resigned all pastoral duties. The correct opening is probably "British former businesswoman who was the chief executive officer of Post Office Limited from 2012 to 2019. She is also an inactive Anglican priest." Or some such. Ain't nobody giving her a business or a parish right now. Guy (help! - typo?) 13:41, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

No objections to adding the word "inactive". Martinevans123 (talk) 15:26, 6 May 2024 (UTC)

Husband name

Public records (Civil Registration Birth Index) indicate that Paula Ann Vennells is her birth name. Some sources seem to suggest that her husband also goes by the name Vennells, though perhaps he may also use his birth name, John D Wilson - they married in Bedford in 1994. Ghmyrtle (talk) 09:57, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

OR? Remember too that such public records are frowned upon by WP:BLPPRIMARY. I think we need robust secondary sources and due weight to go there, but cannot currently see what value it would add to the article, or why we would want to detail it. -- DeFacto (talk). 10:04, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Companies House gives it as Anne. FreeBMD gives only the initial A. The CBE revocation petition site at change.org page also gives it as Anne. But that's also a banned source? How about Crockfords here?Martinevans123 (talk) 10:18, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

The spelling Anne seems to be correct. I didn't suggest that her husband's name should be in the article - simply that attributing the surname Vennells to him is perhaps incorrect. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:17, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I see that the detail at Crockfords requires a subscription, so to get to any detail you have to drop something in the offerTORY? Martinevans123 (talk) 12:24, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Try this. Ghmyrtle (talk) 12:31, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes, both seem fine to me. Although I now see it was already there for the CBE in the Honours section... Martinevans123 (talk) 12:36, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

Yes John D Wilson seems to be on LinkedIn, retired from ABB and now working in the voluntary sector. Not sure his birth name is really needed for this article. Although articles for most female individuals almost always favour a record of maiden names? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:56, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

I think that, if a reliable source were to report his full name, we should include it - but, so far, I don't think they have. Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:54, 12 January 2024 (UTC)

It looks odd to say she married John Vennells. Pending a reliable source couldn't we just call him John or her husband? Southdevonian (talk) 22:51, 18 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it looks odd because it's wrong. Or at least just redundant. His name was John D Wilson. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:52, 19 May 2024 (UTC)

2019 New Year Honours

Vennells was appointed CBE in the 2019 New Year Honours, as recommended by Prime Minister David Cameron. But officially the appointments are made by the monarch. Should Cameron be mentioned? His name does not appear in the Honours article. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:54, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Wasn't it Theresa May rather than David Cameron? Southdevonian (talk) 09:22, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Oh yes, it seems it was May But she is not mentioned in 2019 New Year Honours either. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:28, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think it is particularly notable but I suppose something could go in along the lines of: She was nominated by BEIS and the nomination was supported by PM Theresa May in spite of reservations from a member of the honours committee due to the Horizon scandal. With a ref to The Telegraph article. Southdevonian (talk) 09:48, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that would be wholly appropriate. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:03, 21 May 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 25 May 2024

On adding some text, I did not spot that I had made an error with the refs: <ref name=Fiveexec> needs to be changed to <ref name=Guardianexec> Thanks Southdevonian (talk) 14:24, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 25 May 2024 (2)

And a space after footnote 36 before sentence beginning "Vennells had submitted..." Another one I missed in preview - apologies Southdevonian (talk) 14:38, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:15, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Protected edit request on 25 May 2024 (3)

The sentence "Admitting that she had given Members of Parliament incorrect information when she told them in 2012 that there had EEN no unsuccessful Horizon prosecutions, she said that the Post Office had known but she personally had not known." contains a typo where the word BEEN is spelled as EEN. The error is shown is capitals in the quote above. 82.30.65.48 (talk) 15:35, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

 Done * Pppery * _{it has begun...} 15:55, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Is Vennells disgraced?

An editor and an IP address have objected to the use of the word "disgraced" in the opening sentence. Vennells is being referred to as disgraced in mainstream media, for example [9], [10], [11], [12], etc. Is there a problem with using the word here? Southdevonian (talk) 13:32, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

I think there is, since as yet there is no objective basis to it. She hasn’t been found at fault or guilty of anything (yet), and she gave up her honour voluntarily, or at least invited the relevant committee to take it back. Note that the print media is entitled to express its opinion, but is only an authoritative source for matters of fact (for example, it wouldn’t be appropriate to put some of the words they use to describe certain politicians straight into their BLP articles!). MapReader (talk) 13:41, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Thank you guys for starting this thread. My only concern is that we not use Wikipedia's voice, especially in a lead, to say something disparaging which isn't directly cited in the body. BusterD (talk) 14:03, 25 May 2024 (UTC)

Thanks for the above comments which are all very relevant. As MapReader comments, it would be wrong to use a pejorative term which has been used in a single, or indeed, several newspaper headline/s. However for this example, all the press covering the topic seem to have the same view, regardless of exactly which word is used by them. The London Gazette (which reports that Vennells was bringing the honours system into 'disrepute') is not a standard newspaper as it records facts, not opinion. Vennells was asked many more hard-hitting comments to which she agreed, or more often did not reply. Technically, as I have noted, the adjective should be 'disreputable', but at the start of an essay on Wikipedia, that would clearly be too strong. Regardless of one's personal views, what is 'notable' about Paula Vennells is as a 'businesswoman' alone, or just being a CEO of the Post Office, or being an Anglican priest. What makes her 'notable' is what she did, or did not do, as CEO of the Post Office. Vennells did admit that the Post Office is not as well-regarded as it had been previously. She also stated that she has not been able to find another job, both of which tend to indicate that her being 'disgraced' seems to be a general view. Personally I agree with some of the earlier comments on Wikipedia about her, but ... yes ... I do agree that they are not appropriate for Wikipedia. Localhistorian2024 (talk) 08:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

She was disgraced when she had to hand back her CBE. As can been seen from the WP:RS sources in the opening paragraph of this thread, it's not just "headlines". The Telegraph, Computer Weekly, The Guardian and The Sunday Times? And The London Gazette reports that Vennells brought the honours system into "disrepute". I think it's pretty clear. Martinevans123 (talk) 08:36, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Agree totally (with Martinevans123). Localhistorian2024 (talk) 08:49, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Additionally, although not officially "defrocked", she has the added shame of being a "woman of the cloth". Martinevans123 (talk) 08:56, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I don't think you necessarily have to have been convicted of a crime to be disgraced. But if people think the word is too strong in the first sentence how about something like "Paula Anne Vennells (born 21 February 1959) is a British businesswoman who, as CEO of Post Office Limited from 2012 to 2019, was at the centre of the British Post Office Scandal." Southdevonian (talk) 09:28, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, maybe the widely used and proportionate term "disgraced" could just be used in the main body. Or we'll be running out of kleenex. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:50, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I can only see that term appearing once in the article and that is in Wikipedia's voice the lead. Per WP:LEAD, the lead should summarise the main content in the article body and I don't see how the use of that word is currently justified by what the body currently contains.

WP:VOICE says, amongst other thing:

• Avoid stating opinions as facts
• Avoid stating seriously contested assertions as facts
• Prefer nonjudgmental language

So which part of the article's body is that a summary of? Also, I cannot see any of the four sources mentioned in the original post cited anywhere in the article either. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:18, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, quite right, it belongs first in the main body, not necessarily in Wikipedia's voice, and with sources. There is then a separate question of whether it belongs in the lead section. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:22, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

If we cannot justify putting it in Wiki's voice, then, if we feel it has due weight to include it at all, we need to gain a consensus on how to attribute that opinion, and whether, if there are alternative opinions, how to attribute them and how much weight to give them. -- DeFacto (talk). 14:32, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I'd suggest "a number of mainstream media sources have described her as", or similar. Martinevans123 (talk) 14:39, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I haven't been following this discussion fully but I think she should not be described as disgraced in the first sentence. Her notability was initially as a businesswoman, not a disgraced one. The description of 'disgraced' in newspapers is primary, so should not be used as though it has passed through proper secondary independent vetting. Adding her status as a priest immediately after being described as 'disgraced' comes across as making a personal judgement of her character. Just my opinion FWIW.Roger 8 Roger (talk) 01:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think that's correct. "Sir James Wilson Vincent Savile ... was an English media personality and DJ." Sounds like a decent guy. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Is there a problem with quoting victims' barristers?

I think it is okay to include a couple of quotes from Stein and Henry as reported by BBC and Guardian as long as they are balanced with Vennells' denials and a couple of quotes of her own "I loved the Post Office" etc. Thoughts? Southdevonian (talk) 12:15, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I think it's better saying what Vennells and the others claimed happened/didn't happen rather than the potshots levelled towards her. If the barristers say Vennells knew/didn't know something at a given point I might include that as it has some substance to it, but barristers just saying "no" or "that's rubbish" without anything behind it just comes off as biased. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 12:19, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Disgraced

Can an admin get this out of the lead? Thanks. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:29, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Whether she is or not is being debated above, but regardless it should not be the sixth word in the article. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:49, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I make it the 10th. So not so bad, eh? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:57, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Brackets etc. Still. Not doing wonders for WP:NPOV. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 14:59, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

At least no-one's yet proposed a WP:RM to Disgraced Paula Vennells. But am surprised an admin hasn't taken this out yet. Martinevans123 (talk) 15:03, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Why? Or are you going to play the argument that she didn't have her CBE removed, she surrendered it first (and that's OK then). Andy Dingley (talk) 22:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm going to play the argument that it's blatantly biased, whatever you think of Vennells. Tim O'Doherty (talk) 22:52, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

I removed the term but self reverted, as I had only seen this discussion and had not seen the above discussion or realized that the article had been protected over edit warring over the phrase. Even though I think the phrase goes against the spirit of BLP, I respect the protection and the discussion here. Moneytrees🏝️(Talk) 00:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It is simply biased. We never introduce a subject in this manner on Wikipedia. Doesn't matter whether they are a saint or a criminal. There's no room for POV pushing here. Keivan.f^Talk 06:14, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

So unsourced, unattributed and not reflecting the main body. Even Jimmy Savile doesn't get "disgraced" in his first sentence (but then I guess he died before that was possible). I'm surprised. Martinevans123 (talk) 07:59, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It's an unsourced and unattributed subjective opinion and not a summary of anything in the body of the article, so contravenes numerous Wiki policies, including WP:BLP, WP:NPOV, WP:V and WP:NOR. -- DeFacto (talk). 08:52, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It's only 'unsourced' (there's a fuller discussion of this lower down the article) because it was protected and a citation couldn't be added. Andy Dingley (talk) 10:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, it was. I think we now have at least four good sources. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:58, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

We always had good sources, just not citations directly in the lead (which we don't need, but that's an argument which seems to be being made here).

Yet you're still advocating that the disgraced Vennells shouldn't be described as such. Andy Dingley (talk) 12:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

No, I'm still advocating that it should be in the main body, with attribution and sources. After that, I think there's a separate question over whether it should also be in the lead section, and how. Thanks. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

(edit conflict)The lead should be a summary of the most important content in the article body, and that wasn't in the body, so shouldn't have been in the lead. -- DeFacto (talk). 13:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes, I think we can all agree on that. The question is what should happen next? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:09, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Full Protection....

Where is the explanation for full protection until 29 May? Leaky caldron (talk) 20:43, 26 May 2024 (UTC)

Apparently it's to stop edit warring over a word in the opening sentence that violates at least four article policies, but is now stuck there. How very odd. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:01, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. I have attempted to convince the FP admin User:El C on their talk page but they are intransigent. Leaky caldron (talk) 09:26, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm tearin' up here, mate. Martinevans123 (talk) 09:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

At User talk:El_C#Paula Vennells - FP You had said: There is next to no current activity on the article or talk page (emphasis), which was plainly false. Please don't ping me here again. El_C 09:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

And btw, Martinevans123, before accepting at face value: there was no attempt to "convince" me substantively, because in that thread on my talk page, they simply stated declaratively that I disagree that the disruption meets the criteria for full protection with nothing to support that assertion. Now contrast that with my explanation that it was an edit war between like 8 users and that I count nearly 20 reverts in the 2 days alone prior to my full protection — how do you even engage in good faith when these points are ignored? El_C 09:47, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I counted only ten reverts in the 48 hours before full protection. The first four were when IP addresses inserted things along the lines of "liar, dishonest, lack of empathy..." which were removed quite quickly. The problematical "disgraced" was responsible for six reverts. I had opened a discussion on this page about it before the full protection. I think semi-protection would have been enough. Southdevonian (talk) 10:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The issue here is the version that's now been perm protected? Martinevans123 (talk) 10:22, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

I count different, but doesn't matter. Unprotected and that concludes my role here for forever. A pleasure, I'm sure. El_C 10:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Bye forever. I'm sure Paula sends her regards. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:29, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Hilarious. El_C 10:31, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Glad you came back. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:33, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

My role as in administrative role, you don't need to go out of your way to be unpleasant. El_C 10:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

When did I directly complain about you, or your role? I was going out of my way to welcome you back. But if you want to conclude your role here forever, than that's your choice. I'm not driving you away. Thanks for unprotecting the article. Martinevans123 (talk) 10:44, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Sure, whatever. El_C 10:48, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The original semi-protection request would have fully taken care of the several IP and IP/new account edits seeking to describe Vennells' in derogatory language as well as the nascent use of the "disgraced" adjective. Full protection was not required. I'm content that sound argument has prevailed. Leaky caldron (talk) 11:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

No. El_C 12:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

This thread sure doesn't shine any glory on participants, does it? If you guys really want to sysop yourselves, WP:RFA is thattaway. BusterD (talk) 12:36, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It was only stuck there for two days, not the full four. Would have been worse if it had been the days Vennells actually gave evidence. Martinevans123 (talk) 12:42, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It is the sort of discussion that takes place probably hundreds of times a day. It isn't clear to me why not shining glory on participants has to do with wanting to be (or not) an Admin.? The fact is that there was not persistent disruption from extended confirmed accounts which is the benchmark for FP. The disruption was predominantly over one word and a couple of derogatory contributions by unregistered / new users. Semi protection (as originally requested) would have effectively combated the issue and allowed experienced editors to enhance the article in other non-disputed sections. Leaky caldron (talk) 13:21, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

It's always nice to be considered for RFA. But probably "not on the horizon" for me. (Unless I can find a handy back door). Martinevans123 (talk) 13:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Wouldn't work for me. Like Vennells, I'd be too concerned about the petty politics, managing upwards and keeping my peer group happy! :‑D :D Leaky caldron (talk) 13:34, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Opening paragraph

It isn't appropriate for the first sentence of this article begin with "disgraced businesswoman". A search for "disgraced businessman" on wiki results in no biographies opening with that statement ([13]), and "disgraced businesswoman" brings up zero results ([14]). Similar issues are treated in a descriptive manner in articles such as Michelle Mone, Baroness Mone (PPE contract profiteering), Matt Ridley (chair of Northern Rock when it collapsed), Philip Green (parliament tried to get his honours revoked but they didn't have the support of a TV series), Elizabeth Holmes (huge fraudulent business) etc. I propose a factual addition to the opening paragraph along the lines of Rolf Harris's (various obituaries described him a "disgraced entertainer") which reads:

• He was convicted [...], which effectively ended his career.

I suggest:

• Paula Anne Vennells (born 21 February 1959) is a former British businesswoman and Anglican priest, who was the chief executive officer (CEO) of Post Office Limited from 2012 to 2019. The Post Office Scandal effectively ended her career.

This would have the issue front and centre in a neutral manner without being emotive. Gaia Octavia Agrippa ^Talk 12:24, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

We don't know her career is over - after all, there's always WMF. And I'm sure she's got a few cushy pensions anyway. Perhaps a few pennies in her "rainy day" savings account? Martinevans123 (talk) 13:04, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Has Mone been disgraced? She's still a peer. She still holds the honour that was awarded to her. Vennells does not. It was removed, cancelled, annulled and her name erased from the register. If a similar action was taken against Mone, then we might use the same phrasing.

The difference is NPOV: Wikipedia can (and should) report that persons who have been publicly disgraced are 'disgraced'. WP should not add this to those such as Mone (where many would argue that they ought to be disgraced, and where there are ongoing actions which might lead to that), but such things have not yet reached such a state. But when it has happened, as it has for Vennells, then it's right to report that. Andy Dingley (talk) 13:10, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Michelle Mone, Baroness Mone and husband have had their assets frozen by the CPS. Some might see that as somewhat of a disgrace. But she's still a Baroness, and will probably remain so, at least until after the general election, I suspect. Can one even be stripped of a Baronessy? Sorry to go off topic. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:17, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

The removal of a peerage would require an Act of Parliament. She can be banned from HoL and all sorts of other opprobrium inflicted but the title remains. Leaky caldron (talk) 13:56, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

After reading the "Attendance in House of Lords" section in her article, I'm not sure a ban would make very much difference. Martinevans123 (talk) 21:30, 27 May 2024 (UTC)

Consensus

There appears to be a consensus for the inclusion of a form of what some might call a factually accurate disparaging reference to Vennells', provided that it is reliably sourced and forms part of the relevant section of the article before inserting into the lead. The discussion since the 2 day hiatus on editing the article has clarified the various views and options. Is it now time to agree between interested editors a suitable amendment to the article and lead? Leaky caldron (talk) 16:54, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

So let's try and agree an article main body addition first? Not contingent on also having a lead statement? Martinevans123 (talk) 16:57, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

It’s not up to WP articles to offer disparaging commentary in editorial voice. The cited facts should speak for themselves. MapReader (talk) 17:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

What if multiple WP:RS sources offer "disparaging commentary"? We have to pretend it doesn't exist? Martinevans123 (talk) 17:10, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Describing someone as a mass murderer is disparaging. We do that, provided it is supported by RS. Maybe those opposed could try to imagine this as less of a nasty thing to describe someone and more of a widely held commentary supported by sources? Leaky caldron (talk) 17:15, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

My first instinct is to look up “disgraced” and “disparaging” in a dictionary. In my mind that resolves the question you ask. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 18:27, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

As "disgraced" relies on a subjective opinion, we cannot put it in Wiki's voice, we need to attribute it. How does that resolve it? -- DeFacto (talk). 20:09, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

To help with this, I think we first need a list from the article of the reliably sourced "bad behaviours" that can fairly and squarely be said to have been her fault. Then we can decide how to summarise them. Can anyone provide that please? -- DeFacto (talk). 19:42, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

You're the only one asking for it. You're the only one who thinks it would be "helpful". It looks like you're just dreaming up obstacles to stop it being added into the article, as per reports by RS sources. This kind of analysis would be complete and utter WP:OR. Martinevans123 (talk) 19:52, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

We need to summarise something. If we do not know what, how can we summarise it? -- DeFacto (talk). 20:06, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

Sorry? We need to summarise something so we can summarise it? Then please go ahead. And we can all judge if it's WP:SYNTH or not. Thanks Martinevans123 (talk) 20:14, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

If we plan to add a disparaging sentence about Vennells in the lead, surely we need to agree which are the bad things that we need to consider when formulating that. Currently all we seem to have is that, because her honour was revoked she must have done something bad. Isn't there anything more concrete? -- DeFacto (talk). 22:38, 28 May 2024 (UTC)

I'm proposing that something is added in the main body. I've said this several times now. I really don't see why we have to justify "something disparaging" if it's been widely reported. Martinevans123 (talk) 06:47, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

There is background to the 1.2m petition here, including quotes from Vennells' herself. The site is deprecated by WP for some reason and cannot be linked. "you.38degrees.org.uk/petitions/strip-paula-vennells-of-her-cbe". Leaky caldron (talk) 08:05, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

Yes. that's 1.2 million people who signed to say that Vennells ought to be stripped of her CBE. But we still have one person here, on this Talk page, who thinks it might hypothetically have all been a terrible mistake, perhaps because of "fake news". Goodness me. Martinevans123 (talk) 13:15, 29 May 2024 (UTC)

I suggest that Vennells' disgrace, at this stage, is simply "because of her association with the Post Office Scandal". That is an inescapable conclusion from reading any and (possibly) all of the RSs that cover the subject, especially those which deal with the removal of the CBE. There may well be an RS that is totally specific on the point. I don't think we need any more detail on what that "association" is at this stage, but the article already covers much of the ongoing enquiry to allow the reader to gain a clue as to what that detail may be. It is worth noting that there is more to Vennells' disgrace than just removal of the CBE – we have the various other roles from which she was compelled to withdraw (Morrisons, Cabinet Office, NHS Trust chair, etc.). Incidentally, if you want a source that covers the Care Quality Commission querying whether or not Vennells has been properly assessed as a fit and proper person for her NHS role, here is a link[15]. ThoughtIdRetired _TIR 08:14, 29 May 2024 (UTC)