Talk:Patriotic Alternative

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This article was nominated for deletion on 31 January 2021. The result of the discussion was keep.

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Ethnic Nationalism?

@Marko8726:

Sources describe PA as a "white nationalist" group, not an ethnic nationalist. Please see:

"Significantly, the rapidly growing UK white-nationalist group Patriotic Alternative" [1] which is cited on the article.

"Patriotic Alternative is a fascist, antisemitic white nationalist organisation launched in Britain in September 2019" [2] which is cited on the article.

"The white nationalist group Patriotic Alternative targeted York this weekend as part of a series of demonstrations across the country. An enormous “White Lives Matter” banner was held outside York Minster, and posters with the slogan were spread across town on 9 August". [3]

Although this also says [4] "They also call for a range of measures which encourage what is known as ‘self-deportation’, i.e. making living conditions of immigrants and the non-white community so bad that people are forced to emigrate. They also call for a “complete halt to all immigration unless under exceptional circumstances”, which include “people from other parts of the world [...] who have a shared ethnic and cultural background or who can prove British ancestry”.

I think white nationalist and ethnic nationalist should both be included. Psychologist Guy (talk) 20:50, 14 April 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Removal of content re: Sam Melia's arrest

I've removed content which was sourced from the website farrightwatch.net, which seems to fail WP:RS. Any information on Sam Melia's arrest would be better sourced from an unbiased media report, for example (if it's even notable enough to make it into the local news). Adda'r Yw (talk) 17:24, 1 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Nothing wrong with that source as fas as I can see. Rather than deleting because you think it should be, better to find another source yourself. Emeraude (talk) 11:21, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

As I said it would be better to have a news report, but it doesn’t appear to be notable enough to have made the news. Unless you’d rather cite Laura Towler’s version of events directly, which is at odds with the claims made by farrightwatch.net. I’m not sure how we can lend credence to this one website which appears to be mostly opinion and repeating news from other sources, rather than original journalism. The article doesn’t cite its source (whether the police, local news, local activists, Towler herself) and seems to be written in a snarky and very informal tone (e.g. “He’s a keen ‘joiner’, is Melia.”). This seems to me to be crossing the line from a biased-but-reliable source into unreliable gossip. Adda'r Yw (talk) 13:54, 2 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Cite Laura Towler herself? And how on earth would that be in any way approaching reliable? Emeraude (talk) 12:34, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I didn’t suggest it would be. My point is that her version of events would be no more and no less reliable a source than an activists’ website which is in direct political opposition to her organisation. I can’t find any proof online of the arrest other than statements by Towler herself and a few tweets and blog posts from anti-far right activists, which seem to have got the news from her own social media posts. Adda'r Yw (talk) 16:38, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Well, if you're worried about political opponents' reporting, you can always go the the Nazi Heritage & Destiny website which confirms it. Emeraude (talk) 17:05, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Do you think that is a reliable source? If not then I don't see how it's relevant. Adda'r Yw (talk) 18:23, 3 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Any reply to this, @Emeraude:? I'm still not satisfied that you have provided any reliable source for Sam Melia's arrest. Adda'r Yw (talk) 01:22, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The point is that there are sources available from both sides. And you have not explained why you think farrightwatch fails WP:RS, especially sine tits source is the person involved in any case. Emeraude (talk) 11:03, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sources “from both sides” is irrelevant if none of those sources is reliable. What do you mean by “its source is the person involved in any case”? I have explained above why I think farrightwatch fails RS. Adda'r Yw (talk) 16:55, 22 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I have once again tried to find a reliable source for Sam Melia’s arrest, but failed. Since no other editors have been able to find one I have again removed that paragraph from the article. Adda'r Yw (talk) 05:56, 30 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Emeraude: Once again, could you please explain why you think you linking to a neo-Nazi website makes farrightwatch a reliable source? Adda'r Yw (talk) 07:13, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I didn't say we should. I said if You think farrightwatch is not relaible, YOU could always balance it with heritageanddestiny. Emeraude (talk) 07:53, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

What does that have to do with this article? Are you suggesting heritageanddestiny should be cited as well? Two unreliable sources don’t make a reliable source. Adda'r Yw (talk) 09:00, 2 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Hope not hate used as a reliable source

Hope Not Hate are a partisan left wing organisation who regularly label individuals or other organisations as fascist, white nationalist etc with little to no evidence. It seems hope not hate are the primary source used in this article which is incredibly inappropriate given their own bias and somewhat shady practices. I suggest that other, more reliable sources be found to support the accusations of fascism etc., or these descriptions be removed until such evidence occurs. Theworks84 (talk) 19:48, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

While I am personally sceptical of HNH myself, according to WP:RSP they should 1) be taken on a case-by-case basis and 2) always be attributed. However, they're not outright considered unreliable. If they can be replaced with superior sources, however, they should be. — Czello 19:56, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

That said, however, I do see them being used without attribution a lot in this article. I'll try to make some improvements. — Czello 19:57, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Much appreciated. Thanks Theworks84 (talk) 20:38, 11 February 2023 (UTC)[reply]

"fascist" AND "neo-Nazi"?

Since Naziism is just a form of fascism, I don't think it necessary to really use both labels. Phil of rel (talk) 21:00, 25 April 2023 (UTC)[reply]

well, Neo-Nazi would be more appropriate because PA intends to preserve/restore homogeneity in white nations — fascism doesn’t have the same kind of notion of volk but rather of a collective national identity — compare this with the New British Union’s website and it doesn’t say anything about preserving white racial purity because it is just fascist. I support dropping “fascist”, seems unnecessary 2A00:23C6:D603:8001:8D1:FB9D:D10A:D442 (talk) 09:40, 14 August 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 13 September 2023

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

There is a paragraph on the Patriotic Alternative website which contains disputed and now, defunct information about Tabatha Stirling and her alleged involvement with Patriotic Alternative. This paragraph is irrelevant now as Ms Stirling has had no involvement whatsoever with Patriotic Alternative since or before March 2021. We request either that the paragraph be removed in its entirety OR that a robust edit take place to reflect her current position as it infers that Ms. Stirling is still involved which is untrue and damaging to her reputation. Thank you. Truth and God (talk) 09:38, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done The edit request process is for requesting a specific edit in the format of "change X text to Y text". If you want to discuss the section at issue more generally, it doesn't need to be an edit request.

Who is "we'? Do you represent Tabatha Sterling? That she is not involved now doesn't erase her prior involvement. If she didn't want the reputation of being associated with this organization, she shouldn't have done what she did. That said, if you would like to propose edits making it clearer that her involvement was in the past, please propose that here.(it would help if there were more current sources that, for example, write about her repudiating her prior involvement) 331dot (talk) 09:45, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

This edit request by an editor with a conflict of interest has now been answered.

Tabatha Stirling of Stirling Publishing[16] wrote a series of articles for Patriotic Alternative as "Miss Britannia" describing her son's school as "a hellhole for sensible, secure White boys" and claimed "there is one member of staff who is openly gay, and I mean RuPaul extra gay".[17] On 14 March 2021, author Julie Burchill announced that, with Stirling, "I've found someone who's JUST LIKE ME", who were now publishing her book after the Little, Brown Book Group had dropped Burchill. This came after Burchill had made defamatory statements about the Muslim journalist Ash Sarkar.[17] However, Burchill parted with Stirling Publishing when she found out that Stirling was associated with Patriotic Alternative.[17] Family members would like it noted that Tabatha Stirling has had no involvement either indirectly or directly with Patriotic Alternative since March 2021.

What I think should be changed:
Why it should be changed:
References supporting the possible change (format using the "cite" button):

Truth and God (talk) 11:16, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Not done The proposed sentence mentioning that Stirling has no current involvement with Patriotic Alternative is not sourced. Black Kite (talk) 12:32, 13 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]

References

Membership numbers?

I visited this page because this somewhat obscure organisation is currently in the headlines and I wondered how large and significant it really was. But the only indication I can find of membership numbers is that at one point their online discussion group had 60 members. How many people actually belong to this group in a meaningful sense? Thousands? Hundreds? Dozens? Several? This is extremely important information, so surely some approximation of membership numbers should be given. 86.145.55.48 (talk) 14:01, 14 March 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Semi-protected edit request on 30 June 2024

This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request.

change British far-right, fascist, neo-Nazi and white nationalist hate group which states that it has active branches nationwide. To national socialist party 86.22.246.65 (talk) 22:52, 30 June 2024 (UTC)[reply]

Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Geardona (talk to me?) 00:26, 1 July 2024 (UTC)[reply]