Talk:Car

Most soled car in Q1 2023 is no car

According to this article Carl Benz was the inventor of the car, since he invented the first "practical, marketable" car. I mean La Mancelle was sold 50 times more often than the "Benz Patent-Motorwagen" but it had no internal combustion engine. So obviously unpractical. A shame that all the Tesla buyers do not know. All the reliable sources say that. OK there is the 15th edition of Brockaus. And all the other encyclopedias of that time (1920s) that cite Siegfried Marcus. And the British that had extra tolls for cars a hundred years earlier. But it was corrected by the "Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda" that also destroyed all false evidence. So has to be right! What a luck we had, that the Nazis came to power none has disputed this false claim before they did.

Sorry it is absolutely obvious that the original definition of "soled" and "with internal combustion engine" was chosen by the Nazis to make a German (non Jew) to the inventor of the car. No other article makes the sale a requirement for a invention. No normal thinking man would make a internal combustion engine a requirement for a car. When it became too obvious that this definition is hogwash the less precise and therefore less falsifiable "practical" term of John Nixon was used.

But I know nothing will change. Since the "Reichsministerium für Volksaufklärung und Propaganda" is no more we now need write protection from IPs that want to cite the unlivable source Brockhaus from 1925 instead of the reliable source of Brockhaus from 1941. And there are so many other people that are citing the newer edition! --04:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC) 2001:9E8:2DD7:2500:DA5E:D3FF:FE0E:3424 (talk) 04:28, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I think you mean "sold", not "soled".

Wikipedia can only repeat what it finds in reliable sources - see WP:VERIFY, WP:FACT and WP:RS. WP:TRUTH is also good to read - it is not official policy but it does explain the official policy. If you can present reliable sources that support your claims (both the invention and the suppression) then we can put it in Wikipedia. If different sources contradict each other then we present both claims (with references) and leave it to the reader to decide.  Stepho  talk  05:59, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

As I said before: The debate is old. It will be a long discussion about spelling mistakes, if the 15th edition of Brockhaus is a reliable source... In the end the article is write protected and you will decide that the claim is disputed. Since most of the newer sources are now citing the first lines of Wikipedia, you will let the obviously false claim on top and say that according to WP:BALANCE minority views should be discussed somewhere else later. If you would be interested you would go to the Reference section of History_of_steam_road_vehicles. Almost all of them obviously falsify the clam that the first car was build after 1880. But thinking that 1771 was before 1886 would be WP:NOR. But there is no debate about facts. No one disputes that Benz was building more cars than anybody else from 1894 until the Model T came around and that the La Mancelle was it bevore (being only build half as often as the Benz Velo). It is just the definition of "practical" and if "practical" and "marketable" should be a requirement for a car. Other than from Benz itself, there is absolutely no source from before 1939 that is claiming that this is a requirement. And it is cited in several Wikipedia-articles that you edited yourself that the Nazis made this effort to put this in place. Afterwards most sources changed to the Nazi view. And since there are several Wikipedia policies say that you should prefer newer sources. – No exception for historic events even so it is obviously stupid. – In the end, unless there is some admin that is willing to go WP:IAR, nothing will change. --2001:9E8:2DD7:2500:DA5E:D3FF:FE0E:3424 (talk) 09:22, 19 August 2023 (UTC) Edit: spelling mistakes. --2001:9E8:2DD7:2500:DA5E:D3FF:FE0E:3424 (talk) 09:37, 19 August 2023 (UTC)

I'm reading some of the background. I've no doubt that Marcus made a handful of experimental cars. He sold his engines via a business but didn't appear to sell the cars. I've also no doubt that the Nazi's did all they could to discredit/erase his name. But there were also earlier inventors who made one-off motorised cars/bike/tractors using steam/electric/petrol engines. All of these required intimate knowledge to run - typically the operator was the builder. Benz seems to be the first to have made them to sell - ie multiple copies built to be driven by a (wealthy) person without requiring special mechanical aptitude. I'll keep reading.  Stepho  talk  00:59, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Drive a replica of the old ones and than look when your children try the first time to drive with manual gearing, ask about traffic rules... And then we discuss about knowledge needed to drive a modern car. To the "operated by": Even if it would be true war are discussing about "marketable". So Mercedes run taxis and Formula One racing cars are no cars, since they are operated by the producer? This is just stupid. Benz would be the inventor of car marketing. Not cars. And it is not true. Like mentioned before the La Mancelle was soled in a very similar fashion. Marcus is the inventor of the first petrol driven car. This is the fact that the Nazis didn't like. So they insisted in these stupid restrictions for the definition of car. But this article is obviously not any more about petrol driven cars.

While the definitions for cars differ slightly, absolutely no one defines cars in this way when it is not in the context to determine the inventor.

Most definition look like this:

1. That they run primarily on roads.

2. Mainly transport people, not cargo.

3. Use internal energy to change the position

4. Not used for mass transport.

So the inventor should be Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot in 1771 if you add that passengers have to sit inside it would be 1769 or if you insist of 4 wheels probably Trevithick in 1801. (Also I highly object since it would mean that Robin, Ape Twizy and isetta are no cars.)

In the end all I would like to have is the same definition of car for the invention as for the rest of the article. --Fabiwanne (talk) 20:41, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

In the end I would just remove the "Inventor" from the box since slight definition changes make up for dozends of years. Or put disputed on there. Like I said Bez is obviously wrong, since the La Mancelle meets all reasonable criteria and was earlier. Determine the first one is much more complicated. This is why the Nazis where that successful – thy provided a easy answer for a complicated topic. --Fabiwanne (talk) 20:52, 20 August 2023 (UTC)

Although this discussion is somewhat hard to follow, I agree with Stepho-wrs and I would like to elaborate on it. Reading this, I think there is also a dispute about the definition of a car, split between precursors (any vehicle that can move itself internally so it could even be a steam car) and modern cars (which is what this article should be about, the kind of vehicle we use nowadays)? Anyway, Benz has been regarded by most as the inventor of the (modern) car, not just "because of the Nazis". For example: when Benz died in 1929 (so before the Nazis came to power), even a newspaper from Middle America called him "the inventor of the automobile" ("Karl Benz". Des Moines Tribune, 24 April 1929. P. 10). Even with the knowledge of the Nazi involvement in erasing Marcus' name, automotive historians such as G. N. Georgano have still hailed Benz as the main man. Georgano said in his book Cars, 1886–1930 (note how he starts in 1886, the year of the Benz Patent-Motorwagen) that the Motorwagen was "the first motorcar" due to its commercial production. It may seem odd to give credit to someone just because he made it into a commercial (practical) product, but cars of people like Marcus were rather experimental/not practical for daily use (Marcus' "automobile" wasn't even the first to have an internal combustion engine, btw) and we would never have the automobiles of today if it wasn't for Benz and the men after him. This also goes into detail why Benz’s car was the first (modern) one. Steam vehicles (such as La Mancelle) are not regarded as (modern) cars, partly due to them having an external combustion engine.

I concur that for important inventions such as the car, multiple individuals should always be given credit, not just one figure. However, to suggest Benz did not invent the car (or rather: should not belong to the people given credit) and that his popularity is only due to the Nazis, is just pure nonsense. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 14:53, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

"Modern" made sense when the Otto Engine seemed to be the "winning" engine for cars. But with now a fifth (and growing) of the cars having no internal combustion engine it is more a misstep in history. Yes, Benz did a lot of things in the development of modern cars but even more did Ford or Cugnot and while their achievements prevail most of the things Benz invented are now obsolete. The "Patent Motorwagen 1" was much less practical than anything mentioned here and the Velo came much later. As I said: You can give him a lot of credit. But the "Patent Motorwagen 1" matches almost no definition of a car. (Since it has not 4 wheels, the passengers do not sit inside ant it has no lights.) While the La Mancelle matches almost all of them. So he is just not the inventor of the car. He was the first one who produced bigger amounts of cars with internal combustion engines. But this has nothing to do with "modern" cars. They are electric. Excluding one type of heat engine while allowing a lot of others even electric engines makes no sense. --2001:9E8:2DCF:9800:DA5E:D3FF:FE0E:3424 (talk) 17:54, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

It's not me "giving him credit", Benz's name comes up the most (or at least almost always) in relation to the invention of the car. Statements like "more did Ford or Cugnot" or "almost no definition of a car" are just unfounded and WP:OR. Also, by saying "a misstep in history", it seems like you have an agenda here... Just to note: electric cars were around way before the 21st century. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 20:20, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

He and the Nazis had an agenda. This is well documented. This is the reason why he comes up everywhere. And you yourself admitted that electric cars were around way before the 21st century. So you know that the thing you like to have written here are just wrong. So sorry seems much more for me that your have the agenda to spread misinformation. --2001:9E8:2DCF:9800:DA5E:D3FF:FE0E:3424 (talk) 07:59, 22 August 2023 (UTC)

I agree that "first modern, practical" car is an extremely vague term and it seems to me like the definition of a "real" car was somewhat laid out to apply to Carl Benz as well. I'm also in favor of clarifying that this is a controversial issue, which should be noted as such in the article. Maxeto0910 (talk) 00:57, 21 August 2023 (UTC)

For example, it could be noted in the infobox that the car in its earliest version to which the definition of a car applies was invented by Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot in 1769, and that the widely considered modern version of a car was invented by Carl Benz in 1886, in a similar manner as it's described in the infobox of the hot dog article. Also, the French invention category should be added to the article then as well. Maxeto0910 (talk) 16:17, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Hmm, I disagree. If that infobox from the hotdog article would be applied to this article, it would IMO read that Benz further developed Curnot's idea, but there is no documentation that Benz or any contemporary car builder was influenced by Curnot, also because Curnot's "car" was experimental. Maybe it's an idea to use the note from the Benz Patent-Motorwagen article, and include it in the infobox, if you want to clarify this point? Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 19:19, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Why would it read like Benz further developed the concept? The infobox would merely state that Cugnot invented the original version of a car, based on the very definition of a car, and that Benz came up with a form of car which is widely credited as being the first "modern car"; the infobox wouldn't state that these two versions are even remotely related in any way. Maxeto0910 (talk) 19:54, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Because that's how I interpret that, which means some other readers will probably as well. There's also the matter that many historians don't regard steam cars, such as Curnot's, as "real" cars. I therefore think, if you want to further clarify the infobox, that the note from the Benz Patent-Motorwagen would be a good idea. Eem dik doun in toene (talk) 20:53, 10 August 2024 (UTC)

Types of engine

how many tyos of engine ae threre 43.239.200.209 (talk) 11:47, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

Many. See engine - particularly the engine#Automobiles section.  Stepho  talk  13:29, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

A Word of Celtic Origin

Didn't the word car ultimately derive from Celtic which in turn was adapted by Latin to form the word carrum or carrus then by old northern French to form the word carre? Anonymy365248 (talk) 03:24, 5 October 2024 (UTC)

Karl Benz

I'm curious why Karl Benz is listed as the inventor of the automobile when non-ICE cars (including electric cars) predate his first car. 2600:6C50:587F:AD4A:28A9:4209:42FB:AB6C (talk) 04:35, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Mmm, it does say that in the infobox. In the article it clarifies with The modern car—a practical, marketable automobile for everyday use—was invented in 1886, when the German inventor Carl Benz.

Later the article gives three references for generally acknowledged as the inventor of the car.

I guess if people feel the infobox is deceiving a note could be added. Commander Keane (talk) 05:26, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

What are cars

These outstanding technical advancements are not made without economic consequences. According to a study by Ward’s Communications Incorporated, the average cost for a new American car increased $4,700 (in terms of the value of the dollar in 2000) between 1980 and 2001 because of mandated safety and emission-control performance requirements (such as the addition of air bags and catalytic converters). New requirements continued to be implemented in subsequent years. The addition of computer technology was another factor driving up car prices, which increased by 29 percent between 2009 and 2019. This is in addition to the consumer costs associated with engineering improvements in fuel economy, which may be offset by reduced fuel purchases.

Vehicle design depends to a large extent on its intended use. Automobiles for off-road use must be durable, simple systems with high resistance to severe overloads and extremes in operating conditions. Conversely, products that are intended for high-speed, limited-access road systems require more passenger comfort options, increased engine performance, and optimized high-speed handling and vehicle stability. Stability depends principally on the distribution of weight between the front and rear wheels, the height of the centre of gravity and its position relative to the aerodynamic centre of pressure of the vehicle, suspension characteristics, and the selection of which wheels are used for propulsion. Weight distribution depends principally on the location and size of the engine. The common practice of front-mounted engines exploits the stability that is more readily achieved with this layout. The development of aluminum engines and new manufacturing processes has, however, made it possible to locate the engine at the rear without necessarily compromising stability. 213.115.129.162 (talk) 14:38, 4 December 2024 (UTC)