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Requested move 10 January 2022

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The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Recent English sources tend to favour the Tagalog name. Discounting WP:USEENGLISH opposing arguments not backed by that guideline there is a consensus for the move. (closed by non-admin page mover) Vpab15 (talk) 23:03, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Philippine Democratic Socialist Party → Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas – Party chair Noberto Gonzales is running for president under this party. Every English language reference called this party as the "Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas": Manila Times, Philippine Star, ABS-CBN News, Philippine Daily Inquirer, Manila Bulletin. This page was originally found there, but was moved without discussion. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:27, 10 January 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. -- Aervanath (talk) 20:32, 18 January 2022 (UTC)— Relisting. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 09:11, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]

  • Oppose per WP:USEENGLISH. This is the correct English name of this party, even when Philippine English news references call it as the native name. 180.242.9.167 (talk) 14:21, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • As expected, someone pops up with "WP:USEENGLISH" without knowing what is stands for. In summary, "The title of an article should generally use the version of the name of the subject that it most common in the English language, as you would find it in reliable sources." All of the reliable sources I've given above show that its name in English is "Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas". That's five English sources. That's approaching the number of actual references that we have on this article (LOL). Howard the Duck (talk) 23:03, 10 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose per WP:USEENGLISH. There are English-language sources that use the current title. Even the sources that the nom cites aren't consistent. Here is the Manila Times using the English version. Having a title being in a language other than English is generally unhelpful to readers. Rreagan007 (talk) 05:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • That Manila Times reference was in 2015. It's now 2021 2022, and they've moved on from that. All references from the 2020s no longer use that. All English references use "Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas", easily satisfying WP:USEENGLISH - use the name English language references use. In 2022, it's abundantly clear what that is. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:20, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose. The Tagalog language name uses wrong grammar. It should be Partido Sosyalista Demokratika ng Pilipinas so it should WP:USEENGLISH. Showiecz (talk) 10:05, 11 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support We do use non-English names if such names are the commonly used names in English. Compare the situation on the names of Quebec political parties: we have Quebec Liberal Party with an English name but also the French party names Coalition Avenir Québec, Parti Québécois, and Québec solidaire, because these names are what English speakers call them anyway. WP:UE puts English-language sources as a priority for deriving article names, not English versions or translations of a name. If English-language sources predominantly use a foreign-language name, we use that foreign-language name. In addition, we also have precedent in moving pages if the commonly used name in English has changed over the years, such as Kiev → Kyiv. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 17:05, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose I would argue that the party uses both names, as far as I can tell (which is hard because the party itself barely has an online presence) and the English name is used even by local media outlets; in response to Howard the Duck's claim that no one uses the English name in the 2020s, here's a tweet from The Philippine Star dated to October 2021 showing the English name being used, though I have strong reservations in using recency as an argument since there are sources from the latter half of the 2010s, especially when the party popped up again after the death of co-founder Romeo "Archie" Intengan in 2017 (see here). I don't see the need to move it if both names appear to be used in fairly equal measure, and if the acronym happens to match perfectly in both languages. --Sky Harbor (talk) 23:50, 12 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • I actually saw that Philstar tweet, but wouldn't personally find myself using a tweet as a WP:RS, perhaps the news article linked to a tweet. I also looked around for WP:RS about Fr. Intengan's death, and they were not as many as Gonzales' candidacy in 2022, and not all of them used the name that's not being used by 2021-22 sources. Philippine Jesuits, Manila Times. The PCIJ and Rappler (quoting the PCIJ) used the other name. Personally, it's not that I prefer more recent sources, but if the same source used different names, and we'd have to pick, we'd pick the more recent one. After all, we are looking for WP:AT, at the present time. While this organization may have had other names in the past(?), in the present time, the one that I proposed is far and away the option that will satisfy WP:GNG, WP:AT and WP:USEENGLISH. Howard the Duck (talk) 00:14, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • I wouldn't argue that the English name is a name it has used in the past, but rather a name that continues to be used in the present, so I don't know where you're going with that argument. --Sky Harbor (talk) 00:23, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
        • If the current name has been used, it was well in the past. During Gonzales' current presidential run, [WP:RS]] is using the proposed name almost exclusively.
        • Another time when PDSP came into public consciousness was when Jamalul Kiram III ran for senator under this party. When he died in 2013, Rappler used the proposed name, moving on from their usage of the current article title.
        • The Google Ngrams tells a lot of things. The proposed name has been the most popular name from the party's foundation in the late 1960s until around 1990 when the current title overtook it. I'm not exactly privy to the history of this party, but from what I can see, this party's heydey was in the Marcos era as Gonzales was one of the anti-Marcos people. The proposed title then overtook it when Gonzales became defense secretary, only for the current article to overtake it in 2008 when you moved the article title to the current one. OGoogle Ngrams only goes up to 2019 though, so we won't see if Gonzales's presidential candidacy affected it and on which name's favor. Either way, one could argue that it has overtook the proposed name largely in part because the Wikipedia article is at the current title. Even local media ignored that fact and consistently used the proposed title on Gonzales's current presidential run. It has indeed became evident where the article title should be at.
        • WP:OFFICIAL, but they do have a Facebook page at Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas -PDSP Howard the Duck (talk) 00:48, 13 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom and the reasons given by Mellohi. Itsquietuptown ✉️📜 13:50, 18 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support There seem to be a few !votes misunderstanding our WP:USEENGLISH policy. It is certainly not to only use English translations. Nor is it to default to English automatically so long as a translation has been used. Instead, it is to use the name as most commonly used in reliable English language sources. In this case, particularly in more recent ones, that appears to be the proposed title.--Yaksar (let's chat) 16:53, 19 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Tambayan Philippines has been notified of this discussion. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 14:56, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Note: WikiProject Politics has been notified of this discussion. —hueman1 (talk • contributions) 14:56, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Oppose - This is the English language Wikipedia. GoodDay (talk) 15:25, 20 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support - Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas IS the the English name like most other Filipino parties. We don't force translate subject matters which are widely referred to their local name in English-language sources. (Libingan ng mga Bayani not Heroes Cemetery, Bangko Sentral ng Pilipinas not Central Bank of the Philippines; FIFA not IFAF or International Federation of Association Football) The US Library of Congress even records the party name as "Partido Demokratiko-Sosyalista ng Pilipinas"
    • This analogy doesn't follow though for parties that have a documented history of using an English-language name in accepted use, of which the PDSP is one. We don't use "Partido Liberal" in English, for example, but rather the Liberal Party. --Sky Harbor (talk) 21:09, 29 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
      • Our naming policy isn't to look at if there is an "accepted use" version of an English translation and then default to that though. We use the version most common in English-language sources. Sometimes that may be the English version, sometimes not.--Yaksar (let's chat) 04:59, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Relisting comment - The use of WP:USEENGLISH as an argument for using the English version, regardless of what is in sources, is clearly not backed by the guideline. The intention of that policy is that we go by what is in English sources; it does not merely imply that we always use the English language in titles. - But, I’m not certain it’s been shown the WP:COMMONNAME is the proposed version (and as this wasn’t a NAMECHANGE, weighting to more recent sourcing doesn’t apply). So, I’m relisting to allow for time for more comparative sources, etc., to be produced which show what name is most common and to allow for a clearer consensus to be reached. — Coffee // have a ☕️ // beans // 09:11, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
    • @Coffee: These are some of the Google News hits within the past month:
      • Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas:
        1. Business World "...the standard-bearer of the Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas (PDSP) said in a virtual press conference on Wednesday."
        2. GMA News "Gonzales, who also served as National Security Adviser under the Arroyo administration, will run under the Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas (PDSP)."
      • Philippine Democratic Socialist Party
        1. SunStar Davao "THE standard bearer and one of the founders of the Philippine Democratic Socialist Party (PDSP) narrated how the party..."
      • These are the three that I got that I think hasn't been provided above. That's seven different sources from seven different articles using "Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas," vs. one that used the current title. This SunStar article used "Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas", but that's in 2015, and it doesn't make it apparent from which SunStar (each city edition of SunsStar has its own editorial board I guess) it is. Howard the Duck (talk) 22:40, 30 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support per nom, WP:USEENGLISH doesn't stand if English sources uses the Filipino party name.--Ortizesp (talk) 16:36, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Given that we're no longer supposed to be weighing sources based on recency, I can point here that the English name in regular use, whether on its own or alongside the Filipino name. We've seen several news items, but here are a few more that haven't made it to this discussion yet that support use of the English name:
In academic literature the English name is more prominent from what I see, even if the Filipino name occasionally floats here. To compare, here's academic literature that either uses the English name or the slightly erroneous "Philippines Democratic Socialist Party", whether alone or alongside the Filipino name:
I would think that at this point, while yes, it can be argued that the Filipino name may have been used more recently, this is a very recent phenomenon and the English name still has wide currency, with both names being used in equal measure. WP:USEENGLISH or not (and my case isn't anchored on the "use English" argument), the party is known by both names. --Sky Harbor (talk) 22:25, 31 January 2022 (UTC)[reply]
WP:AT is meant to mirror "current" usage, not past (no matter how recent) or even future usage. Currently, Gonzales's presidential run -- and his been gaining a lot of interviews lately! (not vouching for the guy) -- all has his party called in the Tagalog name. His recent interview in ANC has the name of his party in Tagalog in the caption. If ever the English name becomes the most popular name in the future, there shouldn't be a problem moving it there.
Re: PDP-Laban: I suppose they can't translate "PDP-Laban", particularly the "LABAN" part into English without deviating from the "LABAN" acronym (This is why we don't have this problem with "Lakas-CMD"). If the party was just called "Partido Demokratiko Pilipino," we'd have the exact same discussion as both languages have "PDP" as the initialism. Howard the Duck (talk) 14:16, 1 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Campaigning has officially started. Here are some WP:RS about Gonzales's presidential run in the past week that Google News spitted out:
  • Philippine Daily Inquirer: "Gonzales is running under Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas (PDSP), where he is currently the chair."
  • ABS-CBN News: "A day earlier, the former government official's party, Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas (PDSP), released a statement..."
There were many other news articles about Gonzales, but it didn't mention his party. Out of a busy week, 2/2 of the WP:RS that mentioned Gonzales's party used the proposed name rather than the current name, with not even the benefit of a translation! It's very apparent what predominant usage at the current time is; to call it otherwise is delusional. Howard the Duck (talk) 18:45, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
ABS-CBN isn't even consistent; this article released a week before that article you mentioned uses the party's English name.
That said, the argument that the party is known by both names still stands in my view. With all due respect to Gonzales, especially given that I myself have social democratic political sympathies, the recency argument is arbitrary. For example, this article in The Daily Guardian uses the party's English name and was published in August 2021 (a mere six months ago, which is still fairly recent in the eyes of ordinary people), but you would say this isn't "recent" just because October became your cutoff date? The recency argument aside, taking an expansive view of the print record shows that the English name is as common, if not more common, than the Filipino name when using English-language sources, whether the source in question is geared toward a Filipino audience or not. --Sky Harbor (talk) 23:37, 9 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
The Google News searches I did were restricted to the past week, presumably the past 7 days. WP:AT is current name, not what it was called 6 months, years, decades or centuries ago. (I suppose the Philippines was called "Spanish East Indies" for a much, much longer time in history, isn't it? Or even Davao de Oro was known for decades as "Compostela Valley".) At this point, it's not even a contest to know what name is currently in use. If that changes in the future, let's do this again. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:06, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Support. I think Sky Harbor is the only participant who has made a strong case against this move, so I want to engage with his argument, and explain why I disagree. It seems Sky Harbor is willing to concede that the proposed name is more commonly used in very recent sources, but he contends that, overall, sources are about split, and that we should break the tie by using the English name. He has said that we should not give any additional weight to recent sources, since WP:NAMECHANGES does not apply (and Coffee also said as much in his relisting comment). I disagree with the last step of this argument. The spirit of NAMECHANGES applies even in the absence of an official "name change" event. i.e. if we observe a shift where RS used to use X, but now they mostly use Y, then common sense says that Y is now the common name. One example of this that comes to mind is the discussion that eventually led to renaming Tulsa race riot to Tulsa race massacre. Considering the totality of all books and articles written since the event, "race riot" would vastly outnumber "race massacre", but participants seemed to at least implicitly understand that we ought to give more weight to recent sources in recognition of a shift in common usage. Colin M (talk) 20:50, 10 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I actually would argue that there has been no major shift in common usage despite the increased use of the Filipino name, which is the crux of my argument (which you seem to have missed). Unlike the Tulsa race massacre, where there is overwhelming contemporary academic consensus that this is the case, paired with a concominant shift in usage by print media, this has not happened with the PDSP. As I pointed out earlier in response to Howard, media outlets aren't even consistent: the same media outlet chose to use the Filipino name in one article, then the English name in another article, all within the span of a single week. That is by no means evidence of a consistent shift in usage that everyone has agreed to which would justify moving the article to the target name. (I'm willing to concede that the proposed name has been used in very recent sources if done so consistently, but this isn't the case so far.)
That being said, this goes back to my point about the arbitrariness of the argument among those who support this move. In the Tulsa race massacre example, there has been a consistent shift in the last 2-3 years to recognize those events as an actual "massacre", to the point that the overwhelming academic consensus is that it really was a massacre and should be called as such. That example doesn't stand in the case of the PDSP, where this shift hasn't happened, and if such a shift has happened, it's inconsistent, as evidenced by the multitude of links posted throughout this discussion. That wouldn't merit a move to a name that, while the name of the party in the national language, is still less common in English-language usage. Now, if the party decides to release a statement saying "we intend to use the Filipino name in all cases" à la Côte d'Ivoire, then there would be a case, but in the absence of that I would believe that no shift has happened and we don't lose anything by keeping the article where it is. --Sky Harbor (talk) 18:05, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
That wouldn't merit a move to a name that, while the name of the party in the national language, is still less common in English-language usage. This seems inconsistent with what you wrote above: I would think that at this point, while yes, it can be argued that the Filipino name may have been used more recently, this is a very recent phenomenon and the English name still has wide currency, with both names being used in equal measure. Have you changed your view on this? Colin M (talk) 20:16, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
My apologies, I should clarify. I don't disagree that the party goes by both names, and both seem to be used in equal measure, but I would argue that given the record available, the English name is in wider use and moving the article to the Filipino name is inappropriate. --Sky Harbor (talk) 20:40, 11 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • This is the weekly update on why "Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas" is the WP:AT name for this article. Here are the Google News mentions for the past seven days:
    • Manila Bulletin: "Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas (PDSP) presidential candidate and ex-defense secretary Norberto Gonzalez" (LOL they even misspelled Gonzales's name wrongly)
    • MSN News: "Gonzales, who also served as national security adviser under the Arroyo administration, is running under the Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas (PDSP)." (Struck; MSN News republished the GMA News article for this story.)
    • GMA News: "Gonzales, who also served as national security adviser under the Arroyo administration, is running under the Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas (PDSP)."
    • News 5: "Gonzales, the standard-bearer of Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas in the 2022 elections."
    • Pageone.ph "Gonzales is the chairman of the Philippine Democratic Socialist Party and a presidential aspirant in 2022." (This is the first time I saw this website and I dunno if this passes WP:RS.
    • I stopped at the first page for "partido demokratiko sosyalista ng pilipinas" and I already got 4 WP:RS hits. For "philippine democratic socialist party" there are a grand total of 3 hits, and one of them is news. To say that "the English name is in wider use" is like saying SMNI is a legit news agency. It's not even a contest. Close this, move this, and let us move on. It's been more than a month lol. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
  • Not Google News, but here's the Instagram post of CNN Philippines advertising their presidential debate. Howard the Duck (talk) 13:00, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
You missed one, and one that I think is important here given that this is a Filipino-language publication using the English name:
  • Pilipino Star Ngayon: "Sasama na rin sa 2022 presidential debates na iho-host ng media outlet ng wanted na si Apollo Quiboloy ang dating tagapagsalita ni Pangulong Rodrigo Duterte at pambato ng Philippine Democratic Socialist Party." ("The former spokesperson of President Rodrigo Duterte and the bet of the Philippine Democratic Socialist Party will also join the 2022 presidential debates that will be hosted by the media outlet of the wanted Apollo Quiboloy.")
Even the candidate's own website is inconsistent: some pages will use the Filipino name, while others, like his own biography, use the English name. I bristle at your use of SMNI as an example, because unlike those debates, there is a legitimate claim to both names being in use, and with the sources still tilting to my position. The fact that even Filipino-language sources use the party's English-language name is proof that this RM is premature. --Sky Harbor (talk) 19:48, 23 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]
Re: Pilipino Star Ngayon: I only went through the first page of Google search results. That must have been on the second page, or was over a week old (it was 8 days old when I made the search). Either way, we don't determine English language usage based on Tagalog language references.
Re: Official website, WP:OFFICIAL. It is a clear advantage for "Partido Demokratiko Sosyalista ng Pilipinas" as the name used by English language sources to name this organization. It's not even a contest. It's a clear advantage to the proposed name. To tell otherwise is SMNI levels of propaganda. Howard the Duck (talk) 12:08, 24 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Page move history

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How about that! It's been on an English name for 8 years, 3 months, albeit not continuously, and it's also been on a Filipino name for 8 years, 3 months. Yes, I know it's all English, but you know what I mean. wbm1058 (talk) 19:44, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Post-move discussion

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I'll gladly abide by a move decision, but I strongly disagree with Vpab15's decision here. Given the back-and-forth between Howard and myself which shows that recent sources have very little tilt between one or the other name, I'm curious now how the decision came about given that, at the very least, both the English and Filipino names are in use. --Sky Harbor (talk) 16:12, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

My decision was based on the links posted in the discussion which show recent sources favour the Filipino name. Vpab15 (talk) 16:41, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
This was a tough one to call. I count the !votes at 6–5, and the Ngram graphically shows that both have been very commonly used. Perhaps the balance has swayed back in favor of Tagalog in the last couple of years. As an American I might have broken the tie with the Recognizability criterion because, while I might decipher the meaning of the Tagalog with some educated guessing, the English name is immediately recognizable. Given that Wikipedia is read on a worldwide basis. On the other hand, I expect that most readership of this article is Filipino, and that both forms are quite recognizable in the Pilipinas. Nobody raised the recognizability criterion in the discussion though, but I have a sense that when some say "use English", this is what they're getting at. – wbm1058 (talk) 06:09, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]
I actually would disagree that the balance has swayed in favor of the Filipino name. I don't dispute at all that the Filipino name has become more prominent in the last couple of years, but the English name has remained just as prominent within that same time frame. For example, and I was going to add this in the discussion: two news outlets (GMA News and Public Affairs and CNN Philippines) just used the English name of the party in the last two weeks. If recent sources really did favor the Filipino name, as what the closing (non-)admin states they took into account, we'd see it overtake the English name by some magnitude, but that's not what happened. --Sky Harbor (talk) 10:57, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Fist and rose

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If someone has reliable sources on the party’s use of the fist and rose emblem, do contribute to Fist and rose#Philippines. Keriluamox (talk) 11:05, 23 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

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