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Opening heading

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One of these days, I'm going to look up the actual history. But until then, a few things I know for sure:

  • The tunnel is not called the "Park Avenue Viaduct". A viaduct is elevated.
  • There were once two shorter tunnels, and later the full tunnel was built. I don't know if the full tunnel ever included the part south of Grand Central.

A lot of this should probably be in New York and Harlem Railroad rather than here anyway. --SPUI (talk) 16:06, 6 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Yes you are right, the tunnel from Grand Central to 96th Street is known as Park Avenue Tunnel (not viaduct). I think there was a deep tunnel dug between 92nd Street and 94th Street built in 1836-1837?. Dont have any sources yet. RustyCale 11:30, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)
Yeah, I remember reading about that too - one of the maps at http://memory.loc.gov/ should do the trick. I've greatly expanded Harlem Railroad - I think we should have general stuff here (like the change to tunnel, etc) and put detailed info in that article. --SPUI (talk) 17:25, 7 Mar 2005 (UTC)

While it's certainly true that it's not normal usage to refer to a tunnel as a viaduct, I didn't make it up. While I was researching this article, it appeared to me that the NYC MTA official name for this tunnel was in fact "Park Avenue Viaduct", strange though that may be.

I may have been mistaken, but I did put it in for a reason, and I think it should be looked into. -- Dominus 02:15, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Are you sure that's not referring to the elevated part north of the tunnel? --SPUI (talk) 02:21, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)
It looks like the elevated structure around Grand Central is also called that - [1]. --SPUI (talk) 02:22, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Regarding this phrase - There are no cross-walk signals or overhead traffic lights along this stretch of Park Avenue due to the presence of the tunnels underneath, and the inability to anchor the heavy devices into solid ground. - This doesn't seem to be the case anymore. I remember when I worked on Park Avenue a few years ago this was the case below roughly 60th street - there was just a single traffic light on the median and no walk or don't walk signs - but when I was there today I noticed they seem to have converted to the more traditional style of lights and do indeed have walk/don't walk signs. 68.54.157.84 (talk) 01:33, 5 August 2011 (UTC)[reply]


I've moved all the current information to the top and added more; can someone make sure it's all correct? I may tackle the history soon. --SPUI (talk) 02:49, 8 Mar 2005 (UTC)

added a note that Park Avenue begins at 32nd Street, the lower part is known as Park Avenue South, maybe it should have its own article. If I find any information I will add a note when the railroads between 42nd and 56th Street were sunked. RustyCale 13:39, 20 Mar 2005 (UTC)

Lehman Brothers is not headquartered on Park Ave. World headquarters is 745 Seventh Ave. - Anon, Dec 2005

it's currently edited to say that the road which is known for most of its length as Park Avenue starts as the Bowery. you could make a case for the Bowery being part of the same road, whatever that means, but looking at a map it looks like you'd have to include Water Street (from Whitehall to Fulton), Pearl Street (from Fulton to the Brooklyn Bridge), and St. James Place (from the Brooklyn Bridge to East Broadway) further south, before the segments called Bowery, 4th Avenue, and Park Avenue South.

also, there's a Park Avenue in the Bronx that might be said to "continue" the Manhattan avenue, although there's no bridge between the two, as far up as 189th Street. Izzycat 16:47, 15 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

There's no Park Avenue below 14th st. CoolGuy 02:06, 16 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Should Park Avenue Viaduct redirect to Park Avenue? I think it should go to a disambiguation page since there are 2 structures in Manhattan and 1 in Brooklyn (on the BQE) that all go by that name. Wl219 08:51, 8 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Tunnel Blocked by Police.. isn't this the avenue with it?

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Because on Park Ave., the end (direction passing through the Manhattan Bridge Entrance, Manhattan Side) is blocked by several police vehicles and a sign stating that you need an authorized vehicle. Someone told me it takes you to the City Hall. Am I thinking of the wrong street? If so, then which street is it? I never knew why it got blocked. --AOL Alex 21:56, 28 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Fourth Avenue

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Why does Fourth Avenue redirect to this article? Fourth Avenue still exists, between 14th Street and Cooper Square. Viciouslies (talk) 01:03, 6 June 2010 (UTC)[reply]

Move?

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The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was moved per primary topic. --rgpk (comment) 22:45, 6 June 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Park Avenue (Manhattan) → Park Avenue –

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Fourth Avenue or Lafayette St Becomes the Bowery?

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According to the Wikipedia articles on the Third Avenue and the Bowery, the Third Avenue El ran over the Bowery and Third Avenue and, after the Third Avenue El was torn down there was a movement to rename Third Avenue throughout Manhattan the Bowery. Furthermore, Wikipedia's article on Lafayette St states that it becomes Fourth Avenue. This would lead me to believe that the Bowery, in fact, becomes Third Avenue and that it is Lafayette St that becomes Fourth Avenue/Park Avenue S/Park Avenue. Are there any cites to support one assertion or the other? The claim in the article does not currently appear cited. 24.213.167.105 (talk) 19:57, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Can't answer your citation question but the Bowery splits into the two sides of Cooper Square, one side of which merges with Lafayette to become Fourth Avenue, while the other side continues into Third Avenue. Technically, the Bowery doesn't actually become either of 4th or 3rd Avenues because it doesn't touch either avenue. --regentspark (comment) 20:06, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Thanks for your comment. I think the sentence in the article, "The road that becomes Park Avenue originates as the Bowery" should be restated, per your comment and the Wiki articles I mentioned, as it's currently vague. This page states that Lafayette St becomes Fourth Avenue, while Forgotten NY here states that traffic from Lafayette St feeds into Cooper Square before it becomes the Bowery. In a short search, I haven't found anything that mentions the Bowery becoming either Fourth or Third Avenue, besides the Wikipedia articles here. 24.213.167.105 (talk) 23:19, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]
Hmm. I assume the Bowery ran all the way to 4th Avenue before Cooper Square came into being. Lafayette came later, so I'd say that, historically, the Bowery became 4th Ave rather than Lafayette becoming 4th Ave. Now, of course, neither do. @Beyond My Ken: will know what the historically correct thing is. --regentspark (comment) 23:46, 20 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

As it is now, Lafayette Street feeds directly into Fourth Avenue, which becomes Union Square East at 14th Street, which becomes Park Avenue South at 17th Street, which becomes Park Avenue at 33rd Street. At some point, Fourth Avenue/Union Square East/ PAS and Park were all called "Fourth Avenue". Residents, merchants and realtors requested renamings over the years and the city acquiesced, leaving only the section from East 8th Street/Astor Place to 14th Street called "Fourth Avenue".

The Bowery splits in two at Cooper Square, with one half connecting to Fourth Avenue, and the other half connecting to Third Avenue. This is going to change in the near future, as the link from Cooper Square to Fourth Avenue is going to become a bus waiting area only. I can't recall what's going to happen to the west side of Cooper Square, but the point is that whatever things are like right now, they're going to change in the next year or so.

An 1827 map shows The Bowery going straight through to hit the Bloomingdale Road (Broadway) at 16th Street: no Cooper Square, no Union Square. Third Avenue splits off from it at 4th Street, and Fourth Avenue begins independently at 16th Street without connecting with The Bowery at all - obviously a very different street layout then today.

By 1834, there's a "Union Place" where Union Square is, the Bowery stops there, and Fourth Avenue starts at the north end. Third Avenue still splits off from The Bowery at 4th-6th Street. That's still pretty much the case by 1924, although The Bowery and Fourth Avenue are by then connected on the east side of Union Square, and Lafayette Street still dead-ends at 8th Street, without a direct connection to The Bowery/Fourth Avenue. By 1951, that connection, which we still have, has been made

So, answering some of the questions posed:

  • The Bowery was never Third Avenue, but it was once what is now called Fourth Avenue; now it still has a connection to Fourth Avenue, but soon it won't. It will stil have the connection to Third Avenue it has now.
  • Lafayette Street for most of its history dead ended into 8th Street. The current situation, where it becomes Fourth Avenue, is relatively recent.
  • The statement from Forgotten New York is incorrect, whether it was meant to describe the current layout or the historical one - Lafayette Street has never, that I can find, had any connection to Cooper Square or the part of The Bowery that became Cooper Square. It was a private and exclusive cul de sac built by John Jacob Astor until it was connected in the south to an existing street called "Elm Street".

I hope that's helpful. Beyond My Ken (talk) 03:16, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

I've just been looking at the map of the Commisioners' Plan of 1811 [2], which shows what was planned, and it's pretty much as I described above in the 1827 map. Beyond My Ken (talk) 04:07, 21 November 2013 (UTC)[reply]

East Harlem Apartment Explosion

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Should it be mentioned in the article? It seems like it is the history of the area, but not related to the history of the street. Park Avenue is only an accessory to the surroundings of the East Harlem apartment explosion (like it is to 116th Street (Manhattan)). Beyond My Ken, what do you think? Epicgenius (talk) 17:04, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

What is "the street"? It is not the pavement, or a list of crossings, it is the sum total of the buildings, parks and places of interest that lie along it. The say that the explosion is relevant to East Harlem, because it took place in that neighborhood, but is not relevant to Park Avenue, even though it took place on that street, is not only inconsistent, it's downright silly. BMK (talk) 17:10, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
@Beyond My Ken: "The street" refers to Park Avenue. I have modified it. In the case that this statement is included, it should also go in the 116th Street article since it happened practically around the corner. Epicgenius (talk) 18:16, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Epicgenius, "What is "the street" was a rhetorical question. I know full well what street the event took place on, I was pointing out to you that your definition of what should and should not be in the article appears to be extremely limited and overly technical.

In regard to 116th Street, "Around the corner" is not on the street. BMK (talk) 19:15, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I have restored your comment to its original form. It is not a good idea to change a comment after it has been responded to, because it makes it appear as if the response was given to a different comment.

Also, don't bother to ping me in the future. Ihave notifications turned off. BMK (talk) 19:21, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

(That doesn't sound very conducive to discussing anything, but OK, I guess a watchlist helps too...) Then should we include every single event that has ever happened on Park Avenue (or on every street article on Wikipedia) in the articles' respective histories? Epicgenius (talk) 21:54, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
No, of course not everything that happens on Park Avenue is relevant for the article, only those that are notable and significant. Are you arguing that the explosion wasn't notable or significant? (Your slippery slope argument would have more impact if the incident wasn't a major one which killed 8 people and injured many more, and generated an article here.) BMK (talk) 22:28, 18 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
The explosion may have killed eight people but it wasn't Park Avenue that caused it. There should be a list of all major events that happened on the avenue, if that's the case (such as Summer Streets — I assume you know what that is). Epicgenius (talk) 15:31, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Summer Streets should indeed be in the article, as a major recurring event, but the argument that "Park Avenue didn't cause the explosion" is absurd. BMK (talk) 22:39, 19 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
On a related note, stop moving the article to 2014 East Harlem apartment buildings explosion. It should not be at that title, per WP:PRECISION. Epicgenius (talk) 14:30, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please see other articles of the type, such as 2008 Times Square bombing, and please don't issue orders to other editors. BMK (talk) 15:33, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
"Please don't issue orders to other editors." Why don't you follow your own rule by not telling me to do that?
Besides, there were multiple bombings in Times Square (including the attempted one in 2010), so that title is correct, as it serves properly as a disambiguator. Epicgenius (talk) 15:51, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]
Please note the difference between a request and an order. This discussion is concluded on my part until such time as another editor might join in. BMK (talk) 16:17, 20 March 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I vote this detail is not relevant in the same way that the rest of the content in the history section is relevant. This is a story about a building with an address on Park Avenue, whereas the other content is about the actual road itself. It makes sense to me that someone searching Wikipedia for information on this explosion would start at the Park Avenue page, so I think it belongs on this page. Perhaps under the "History" section there should be a "History of the avenue" subsection, and a "Nearby history" subsection, that the Harlem explosion story and other similar stories would fall under. MrPMonday (talk) 21:38, 13 May 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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71.80.203.159 (talk) 11:03, 20 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

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