Talk:Paris-Panthéon-Assas University

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Dates of alumni

Please provide the dates of study if available. --Ransouk (talk) 15:55, 28 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]

You can see the dates on some of their own profiles. Otherwise it is common not to have the dates, check other pages, like Harvard's or Yale's... — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naxh (talk • contribs) 22:29, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Introduction

@Naxh:: the first sentence should be simple. Please don’t change the page until you get consensus here, otherwise an admin will have to intervene. Thanks. --Ransouk (talk) 03:15, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I do not mind having an admin intervene! There were a lot of english mistakes that I corrected in this article. Sentences were poorly translated from French. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naxh (talk • contribs) 22:21, 20 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

You added statements in the lede that do not correspond to sources. --Ransouk (talk) 13:50, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's not true. Which ones are you talking about? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naxh (talk • contribs) 18:16, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

For example,the remaining professors did not go at all to Paris 1 only, as it is said in the sentence you added, they went to many other universities. To me, the first sentence is too complicated. Also, you should find more sources to say it is usually considered as the most prestigious. --Ransouk (talk) 18:45, 21 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Only a very few Professors of the Law Faculty of Paris joined Dauphine and other universities after the split of 1970. The vast majority of those who did not join Panthéon-Assas went on to integrate Paris 1 which is totally historically accurate and verifiable. I do not know what are your sources but I actually have many. Please do check both Panthéon-Assas and Panthéon-Sorbonne's websites for further information. The first sentence totally makes sense, I see no grammatical mistakes. Paris II is a statutory name (derived from the statute that established the university) what is it that you don't understand exactly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naxh (talk • contribs) 00:14, 22 February 2022 (UTC) Regarding the ranking and prestige of Panthéon-Assas, I urge you to check for your own benefit, among many other rankings, this one https://thotismedia.com/classement-droit-2021/ and read the methodology they followed. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naxh (talk • contribs) 00:18, 22 February 2022 (UTC) Why censor facts when you disagree with them? this is an online encyclopedia.[reply]

The website of the own universities are not accurate sources. There is no source given, and, in any case, I don’t see, what it has to do with this page. --Ransouk (talk) 13:30, 27 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I provided other sources too. You can check them. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.95.145 (talk) 18:48, 1 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Mate, stop undoing my updates, I am not letting go either. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Naxh (talk • contribs) 01:56, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

It's simply false to state that all remaining professors went to Paris 1, I provided a source: René David went to Aix. You wrote yourself "The vast majority of those who did not join Panthéon-Assas went on to integrate Paris 1", without a source, but at least it says that not all, which is what your sentence means. --Ransouk (talk) 02:39, 6 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Now you are saying that not all but the majority. Please provide a source for such a claim. Thanks. --Ransouk (talk) 20:12, 7 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

That's what I have been saying since the beginning... Read my previous comments in the talk section... I am fine with the latest sentence. I have provided many sources! Naxh (talk) 01:15, 8 March 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

I read this page (I haven't been on Wikipedia for a long time) and really someone has to react. The introduction of the article is completely advertising and is not accompanied by serious sources. The first 3 sources are: a 30 year old report that doesn't say what it is made to say, a Spanish advertising article from a university and a pseudo-interview from a little known internet media. I wish to open a debate here to make this page more neutral and encyclopedic because: 1. it is wrong to reduce Assas to only its law faculty, it is much more than that (political science, management, economics) (obviously the people who want to leave these passages are from the law faculty of Assas...) 2. it is wrong to say that it would be the only heir of the old university of Paris (on the contrary! It is the universities with "Sorbonne" in the name that are. Assas does not even have a branch at the Sorbonne). 3. Assas is absolutely not considered as the "best" or the most "prestigious" French university or law school. I invite everyone to come and give their opinion here in a constructive way. Aigurland (talk) 14:22, 31 October 2022 (UTC)[reply]

@Ransouk: you deleted (all!) my changes of the day without bothering to react here. I was waiting for your opinion as it doesn't seem to bother you that the introduction of this page is written in any way with false sources. Aigurland (talk) 17:22, 1 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

All the sources I see are correct. Please avoid personal attacks. --Ransouk (talk) 14:16, 2 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Ransouk The first source of the article is a report from 1996 (that's almost 30 years ago...) which says that it's a very good university in law (which I don't dispute at all) but at no point does it say that it is the best in France (which doesn't mean much anyway). On the other hand, it is clearly stated that the attraction of Paris I is competition, which you failed to mention (and again, this was 30 years ago). This report is completely obsolete, we have to use slightly more recent sources for subjects that are constantly changing.

The second source is officially an advertising article... it talks about a partnership. Anything but reliable. I could also easily find partner universities of a French university like Paris 1, Paris 4 or Paris 6 for example that would say it is the best university. As an encyclopedic source, it's absolutely worthless. When I see that they say that the Catholic Institute of Lille is the most prestigious in France.... For the third source, it doesn't say that Assas is the best in France, but it does say that about Paris 1, which means that we are making this source say precisely the opposite of what it says. I suggest that in order to make it more neutral and encyclopedic (and true) we mark Assas is one of the best French universities in law, and why not refer to its historical rivalry with Sciences Po or the Sorbonne, which is well known. Tell me what you think when you have time, and please stop running away from me by undo my changes and constantly updating your complaint to the administrators: we have the same interests, the encyclopedia needs contributors like us. Maybe I'm wrong on some points? I'm only asking to debate with you so that we can move the project forward. Have a nice day. Aigurland (talk) 14:48, 2 November 2022 (UTC) + an article in Le Monde which says that Paris 1 and Paris 2 are the two most prestigious in France.^[1][reply]

Hello everyone, I'm just doing a little "up" to see if anyone wants to contribute to the debate Aigurland (talk) 17:28, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Hello, I copied additional sources that you could already find in the body of the article. You can find additional ones online. Please follow El_C’s advice on how to interact on Wikipedia [1]. Please avoid discussing what I am supposed to have done or "failed" to have done, just stick with discussing the content. Also, an old official source (among many recent ones) is not a "false" source. --Ransouk (talk) 18:49, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Good evening Ransouk, thank you for responding so quickly. Some of the sources you bring up had already been answered by me on "Collège de droit in France" but you are right: let's group our discussions. The sources are numbered from 1 to 8. 1 is a mirror site of the ULB. We can't deduce something that important from an unverifiable site. This is the real ELB site,(ulb.be) there is no mention of this article. 2 is an advertisement, I have already said everything about it. It is inadmissible (principle of neutrality), you have not disputed this. 3 is not an article but a site, there is no content to exploit, maybe it was a mistake to put it here. 4 is irrelevant: why call on an English media on a French issue that is much better treated in the French press. we wouldn't use Swedish media for a Spanish university, for example (and their area of expertise is economics, not law. A journalist who says that Assas is a "law school" obviously doesn't know the question). 5 is a bare URL, I had already removed it from the "Collège de droit in France" page, probably another mistake (no problem, it happens). 6 is a controversial "pop culture" "media", which quickly slips this in, we can't deduce something that important from this "source". 7 doesn't even mention Assas directly, and finally 8 puts "France's leading legal university" in quotation marks precisely to say that Assas claims it, not to corroborate it (that's the point of French typography). The notion of "top" university is vague because it does not mean anything (we should look at the rankings but they are not in favour of Assas). I suggest the following wording: "It is considered as one of the most prestigious French universities in law" or even "It is one of the most prestigious French universities in law" (clear, limpid, neutral, objective). Do not hesitate to tell me what you think. Have a nice evening Aigurland (talk) 22:55, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

The 1 is the Nouvel Obs, the 2 is not an advertisement, the topic is independent from the source, the 4 is the Financial Times (there is no rule of "French sources regarding France", on the contrary, international sources might be more objective), the 5 is the University of Virginia (I put the cached version), the 6 is the Daily Beast and not the only source, the 7 is the Huffington Post and clearly refers to Assas, the 8 is L’Étudiant and clearly says that the university "cultivates its prestigious reputation of "first legal university of France"", which means that it has this image and that it cultivates it. I just added three sources, including one from a French newspaper from one month ago that states that in law Assas is "number one". Ransouk (talk) 23:53, 10 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

I have nothing to add to what I have already said. I am putting the more encyclopaedic version up pending the possible intervention of other users in the debate, as long as the content is disputed. Being "number 1" means absolutely nothing (the only way to tell would be with rankings but Assas always comes very far). What the serious sources show is that it is a very prestigious university in law and that is what Wikipedia should put (even the Harvard page is more cautious about marking such things). I invite you to look at how the question is treated in in other languages (a good indicator of the opinion of other communities) Aigurland (talk) 10:03, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

So you are saying "I cannot give an argument to defend my point, so I stop talking and edit the article anyway". You admit the sources consistently say that it is the top law school but your only argument is Wikipedia from other languages and that what the sources say "does not mean anything" so you are deciding on your own what make sense. This is not how it works on Wikipedia. I made an ANI notice. Ransouk (talk) 11:17, 11 November 2022 (UTC)[reply]

References

^ https://www.lemonde.fr/education/article/2013/11/27/le-droit-une-filiere-victime-de-son-succes_3520934_1473685.html

References

[1] ttps://www.lemonde.fr/education/article/2013/11/27/le-droit-une-filiere-victime-de-son-succes_3520934_1473685.html

[1]