Talk:Paranthropus boisei

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Review: September 1, 2020. (Reviewed version).

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Paranthropus

If this information is not all currently at Paranthropus, it certainly should be. --Wetman 4 July 2005 09:30 (UTC)

There were many important factors I added such as how Paranthropus boisei had the largest sexual dimorphism and their comparison to modern day Gorillas, you did not have to delete that. --Quena@sympatico.ca 04:24, 15 November 2005 (UTC)[reply]

"Males weighed 68 kg (150 lb) and stood 4 feet 3 inches (1.3 m) tall, while females weighed 45 kg (100 lb) and stood 3 feet 5 inches (1.05 m) tall. The average adult males were almost twice the weight and height as the females, giving them the greatest sexual dimorphism recorded of all identified hominins. "

Correct me if I'm wrong, but something's wrong with that math.--NotALizard 11:32, 7 February 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Image

File:AustralopithecusBoiseiParis.JPG

Australopithecus boisei.

An image from the Muséum national d'histoire naturelle. Feel free to insert it in the article. PHG (talk) 15:00, 2 May 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Untitled

This page absolutley needs references to it's discovery and subsequint place as the missing link. It was added to textbooks and a few years later the Leakey's came out saying they had made a mistake. And then the animal was placed back where it actually belonged as a non-human, low land vegetarian primate. That information would be essential, one would think. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.118.38.126 (talk) 05:13, 27 May 2012 (UTC)[reply]

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chart colours ...

Can someone make the color for the Austro' timeline a darker yellow? It's so light it is hard to see on a white background. Thanks. 104.169.18.0 (talk) 22:42, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

species name

Needs a reference about the change away from the Leaky designation, and why the most-recent rules about the original naming convention does not apply? (aka Brontosaurus-Apatosaurus) 104.169.18.0 (talk) 22:45, 11 November 2018 (UTC)[reply]

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Paranthropus boisei/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: FunkMonk (talk · contribs) 13:20, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I need to get in on the hominid action. FunkMonk (talk) 13:20, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

welcome to the hominin side of town User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 15:59, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Gracile australopithecines is a duplink in the intro.

fixed User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 15:54, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Any reason why OH 5 needs to be a separate article? Most of the info there either is duplicated or would fit in this article.

I don't really know the criteria for splitting off specimens. The list is on List of human evolution fossils User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 15:54, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

A lot of these short specimen articles were created by a user almost 15 years ago (see merge discussion from 2006[1]), there are no specific rules for when to separate a specimen article, but in this case (and most cases), it is mainly duplicate info in a short article, so I have added a merge tag to the article. What needs to be said about the specimen which cant just be said here is what we need to ask ourselves. I remember the holotype and only known specimen of Darwinius was also split off at some point, which is utterly pointless because until more specimens are found, that one specimen is Darwinius. In the current case, there are at least more specimens. FunkMonk (talk) 14:58, 10 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Seems there a dozens of such stub articles, I'll bring up the issue at the palaeo project. FunkMonk (talk) 14:28, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Is Paranthropus really considered a separate genus by most researchers these days?

it's like a 50/50 split. There's absolutely no consensus User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 15:54, 9 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Mary had discovered the skull, OH 5 (the holotype), and Louis described it on August 15." Would probably make more chronological sense to write something like "Mary discovered a skull, OH 5, which Louis made the holotype of (insert original name) in his description published on August 15."
What does OH stand for?

added User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 20:41, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Info on the naming should come right after its description is mentioned. Now you have the following text, which is confusing "Because the skull was associated with the tools and processed animal bones, they presumed OH 5 was the toolmaker. Attribution of the tools was promptly switched to the bigger-brained H. habilis upon its description in 1964. OH 5 was clearly not in the genus Homo, and so was classified as an australopithecine." It would be best to get the naming out of the way, and then go on to other things.

reorganized User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 20:41, 14 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"and so placed it into a new genus as " And species. Rather say "used OH 5 as basis for the new genus and species "Zinjanthropus boisei".

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"The genus derives from" Genus name or generic name.

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"the medieval term for East Africa" Very vague as you don't mention language, would be medieval Arabic term.

Leakey says "This generic name derives from the word 'Zinj', which is the ancient name for East Africa as a whole" User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Ok, best to go with the original description, yeah. FunkMonk (talk) 02:57, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"The remains were clearly australopithecine (not Homo)," Too unspecific, "not of the genus Homo".

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"on August 1" long time since you mentioned the year, you could give it again.

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

excavating the area for early hominin remains" You should mention and link hominin much earlier in the section.

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"discovered a skull, OH 5" Describe the condition of the skull here. Fragmentary, with no jaw?

added without a jaw User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"In 1965, the skull was dated to" Add the specimen number, just saying "the skull" is confusing right after you mention a different taxon.

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"The first jawbone, Peninj 1" Specify "first known".

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Illustration of KGA10-525" This looks like a photo with a filter on it, probably a copyvio. I'll DR it, if you want to look for replacements.

removed User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"the first specimen with associated skull and jawbone" This is confusing, I thought it meant a skeleton with associated skull, but the text later states postcranial elements were only found later. Say the first skull with an associated jawbone if that's what you mean.

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 02:53, 23 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You do a good job of attributing claims and studies in the taxonomy section, but then this is completely given up under classification. But who suggested the various theories on classification and when, and who are the proponents today? You state a lot of extraordinary, probably controversial stuff as facts, though we need to know who has proposed it.

There are a lot of studies who bring in this taxon (even briefly) and some use A. boisei and others P. boisei, and some P. boisei s. l. and others P. aethiopicus and some just say KNM WT 17000 because they don't have any opinions on the taxonomy. Should I dig up every single one since 1959 and list every author? User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No, for the studies you do cite. FunkMonk (talk) 17:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

So do you want something like "According to Bernard Wood, it is debated if Paranthropus is a valid natural grouping"? By stating specific people, it implies that other people believe there is no debate, or by saying this like "According to Bernard Wood, the species belongs in Paranthropus" this would imply that this was his idea, or "According to Bernard Wood, Paranthropus is a valid natural grouping" would imply that Wood is the overarching advocate for this classification User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 19:12, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is more about who first suggested each scenario. For example, "X first proposed in year Y that P. was an unnatural goruping. This was latercontested by Z, but supported by Å". Or similar. FunkMonk (talk) 20:01, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Paranthropus = Australopithecus was first suggested in 1948 by Robinson, when Paranthropus was monotypic, because there were too many species and genera being defined with meager justification. Usage of P. robustus or A. robustus became quite unstandardized, and then we have boisei entering the field and it's debated (as discussed in Research history) if Zinjanthropus boisei (now no longer widely used) should go to Paranthropus boisei, and if P. boisei = P. robustus (abandoned in 1967) or if P. boisei = A. boisei or A. (Z.) boisei. Wood is trying to give a summary of the literature and describe where P. boisei taxonomy stands in current academia. As for the cladogram, A. africanus was assumed to have been the LCA between Homo and Paranthropus since it was the only Australopithecus species well-defined for some time, until the formal description of A. afarensis in 1978 when the describers proposed that A. afarensis was the LCA between Homo and Paranthropus and A. africanus was ancestral to one or all Paranthropus. A. afarensis' position as the LCA is debated, as the taxonomy of australopithecines has poor resolution. Should I add this in? User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 22:34, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Yeah, I think any major details about taxonomic history that have been left out could be added. FunkMonk (talk) 22:58, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

added the above User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 17:08, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

What's the point of the links in the see also section? Almost all of them seem to be linked in the article itself.

easy way to find more or less contemporary African taxa User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"P. boisei seems to have resided predominantly in wet, wooded environments, such as wetlands along lakes and rivers, wooded or arid shrublands, and semiarid woodlands" Based on what evidence? If because the fossils are found in what corresponds to such areas, it only shows their bodies ended up there after death.

fixed

"not being the knapper" What's that?

changed to tool maker User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Any cladograms?

added User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe place them horizontally so they don't take up so much space? FunkMonk (talk) 17:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Changes look good, I think this is the last unaddressed point. FunkMonk (talk) 17:55, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think putting cladograms horizontally is something you can do User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 19:19, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe IJReid or Jts1882 have some insights to this. It can be done with some layouts at least, as in Elasmosaurus. FunkMonk (talk) 19:46, 31 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I've put the cladograms in {{clade gallery}} which allows horizontal or vertical arrangements. The box borders can be changed if there is a format you'd prefer. An alternative is to use one cladogram like this:

	P. aethiopicus

	P. boisei

	P. robustus

	A. africanus

One possible problem is display in Safari on Apple devices. Alone among the major browsers, it renders HTML tables (and thus {{clade}} cladograms) differently. I haven't been able to check cladograms mixing {{clade}} and {{cladeR}} in this way. Someone should check it. An alternative is to put the reverse cladogram in a seperate cladogram rather than embedded in the |grouplabel= paarameter. — Jts1882 | talk 06:49, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, I think it looks nice, but of course it's up to Dunkleo to decide. FunkMonk (talk) 07:34, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I use Safari, and the cladogram posted here would look confusing to someone who doesn't know how you're supposed to look at it. With clade galler, it requires 3 cladograms, and since there're only 2, the footer will jut out or in awkwardly depending on the screen size no matter how you scale it (like, for Jts the one on the article probably look fine, but for my screen the footer juts out a lot), so I just put in a 3rd cladogram. User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 14:12, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I was afraid Safari would look weird. Would it be possible to upload a screengrab the File section. It would be useful for documenting the features and deciding what to advise against using.

An alternative which might look better in Safari would be like the following, although I'm guessing what the Safari problem is, so I'm not sure if this will be different or the same.

	P. aethiopicus

	P. boisei

	P. robustus

	A. africanus

Note the issue with the footer overrunning is one that can be solved, if it is decided on the two cladogram solution.— Jts1882 | talk 14:55, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good, it's not like we're saving up on white space anyway. "(note, they are not absolute)" sounds a bit superfluous though, as the fact that there are three should make it clear. How about saying instead something like "based on Benson et al (1), Jonhson et al (2), and Chimpson et al (3)"? FunkMonk (talk) 14:23, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The alternative is a general caption, with each clsadogram having an individual header or footer with the authors. There is a diagram showing the options in the {{clade gallery}} documentation. — Jts1882 | talk 14:55, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

The 2nd cladogram you put here looks the same as the first but missing the frame. I put the refs in the captions for each cladogram, so we should be good on attribution. The note is clarify that there are more than just 3 proposed family trees in existence, otherwise someone might get confused that this is a complete list User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 17:01, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"It was also once thought P. boisei cracked open nuts and similar hard foods with its powerful teeth, giving OH 5 the nickname "Nutcracker Man"." Who said this and when? It is jarring because another claim right before is attributed to a writer.

I believe someone said it in a newspaper and it caught on (even in journals) User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"because of this, the predominant model of Paranthropus extinction for the latter half of the 20th century was that it was unable to adapt to the volatile climate of the Pleistocene, unlike the much more adaptable Homo." Proposed by who and when?

Because of Robinson's 1954 hypothesis, this was the predominant model of Paranthropus extinction User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Link microwear.
"Carbon isotope analysis reports a diet of predominantly C4 plants" When and by who? Look for more such cases without attribution and date throughout, since you'd want to be consistent.

I'm aware of 2 analyses. Switched to plural "Carbon isotope analyses" User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"lighter built chimps" Not sure why you should use this informal, almost comedic term in a scientific article.

I don't see the problem with saying chimp instead of chimpanzee or hippo instead of hippopotamus or rhino instead of rhinoceros User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hmmm, the other examples seem to be much more in formal use, though. FunkMonk (talk) 17:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"Louis Leakey and colleagues, when describing H. habilis" Give date, also you don't need to spell out his full name after first mention.

Added year, a there're multiple Leakey's mentioned User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"OH 80 was found associated with a mass of Oldowan stone tools and animal bones bearing evidence of butchery. This could potentially indicate P. boisei was manufacturing the Oldowan tradition and ate meat to some degree.[9]" THe article is very unclear whether this is accepted today. I the section after, it is implied that it is unlikely it was the toolmaker.

No one else is giving any opinions on OH 80 possible tool use User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"The skull large rough patches" Missing word.

fixed User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"would have increased the pressure felt by food." This is rather odd wor4ding? Can food "feel"? Pressure applied to food?

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"with males notably bigger than females" Adding "being" would make this sentence flow better.

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

" It is also debated if Paranthropus is a valid" Why also? The preceding sentence does not mention any debate.

I forgot to fix that when I was shuffling text around User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It is pretty hard to figure out from the article whether it is thought to have been mainly terrestrial or arboreal, or if this is not known.

that's because there are no solid opinions on P. boisei's locomotory behaviors, especially because postcranial remains are so poorly known, and because its taxonomic affinities to better known taxa are debated, and australopithecine locomotory behaviors may have been highly variable User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

If so, can it be stated it is unclear/debated then? FunkMonk (talk) 17:20, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

changed to "This could either indicate that P. boisei used a combination of terrestrial walking as well as suspensory behaviour, or was completely bipedal but retained an ape-like upper body condition from some ancestor species due to a lack of selection to lose them." User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 19:12, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"However, they still retained Zinjanthropus and recommended demoting it to subgenus level as Australopithecus (Zinjanthropus) boisei, considering Paranthropus to be synonymous with Australopithecus." So how and when did conensus emerge that it would be placed in Paranthropus?

There is no consensus User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

"P. boisei is the most robust of the robust australopithecines" Comparisons like this would seem to fit better under description.

done User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Some specimens appear to not be covered in the article though they appear to be significant, such as KNM-ER 406.

added "Among the notable specimens found include the well preserved skull KNM-ER 406 from Koobi Fora in 1970" User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

It would be nice to show a skull with a jaw attached under diet, for example:[2] That specimen doesn't seem to be mentioned in the article either. Also good to show it from the front because you only show the skull form the side otherwise.

added User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

This image[3] shows the female, which would probably be good to include somehow. Or if we have better photos of the specimen.

added User:Dunkleosteus77 |push to talk 16:38, 25 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Anyhow, this is looking good to me now, so I'll promote it. FunkMonk (talk) 23:12, 1 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Co-existed with H. erectus?

This article posits that H. erectus and P. b crossed paths within a few hours of each other: https://apnews.com/article/fossil-footprints-early-humans-coexistence-f785102d487f7402421a269cac439ae6 Kdammers (talk) 23:55, 29 November 2024 (UTC)[reply]