Talk:Paradise, Arizona

Untitled

The article was covered in mostly advertisement, needs to be properly formatted, and I'm not experienced enough to do that. -idown

Postal 2 and REAL Paradise.

Well, that's rubbish. I wrote to Vince a lot time ago, and he said, that the Paradise (from game) is based on Bisbee. http://img504.imageshack.us/img504/9278/postalsprawaparadisexl2.png

83.31.239.102 (talk) 13:59, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

fictional town

part 1

My addition of Robert Heinlein's "Blowups Happen" was removed because the town of Paradise in the story was fictional. Why was "Blowups Happen" removed, while "Postal 2", which refers to an equally fictional town, was allowed to remain?

@John Sauter: I deleted that too. There was nothing to support that either of the entries in that section of the article had any connection to Paradise, Arizona. Magnolia677 (talk) 09:57, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

It is common in fiction to refer to actual places, but in a fictious way. For example, the 1993 movie Groundhog Day refers to the town of Punxsutawney, but it fictionalizes the town by adding a character who knows the life story of every resident. The Punxsutawney of Groundgog Day is thus, technically, a fictional town. However, wouldn't you say that the town is "referenced", even if not accurately described, in Groundhog Day?

Similarly, it can be argued that the reference in "Blowups Happen" to Paradise, AZ, is to the actual town, though augmented by the presence of a nuclear power plant. Consider that the town is described as being in a corner of the state, and the story was written when the town was still inhabited. John Sauter (talk) 14:31, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@John Sauter: If you are able to find a source to support that the fictionalized Paradise, Arizona is actually this Paradise, Arizona, then sure. Magnolia677 (talk) 16:34, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I think you set your standard too high. I doubt anyone could find a source saying that the Punxsutawney of Groundhog Day is (modeled on) the real Punxsutawney PA. It is obvious, so nobody has to say it. Similarly for any other reference to a town in fiction—if the reference is clear enough, it should be accepted.

The question then becomes one of judgement: how closely do the fictional and real towns have to match before you accept that the reference is deliberate. Is the city of Rome in Shakespeare's Julius Caesar close enough to the real Rome? John Sauter (talk) 18:08, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

@John Sauter: Please see WP:V and WP:OR. Magnolia677 (talk) 18:23, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I am familiar with Wikipedia's rules about verifiability and original research. I refer you to the Wikipedia article on the "In Popular Culture" section, which contains this paragraph:

“In determining whether a reference is encyclopedic, one helpful test can be to look at whether a person who is familiar with the topic only through the reference in question has the potential to learn something meaningful about the topic from that work alone. For example, if a movie or a television series has been filmed in a town, the viewer is seeing a concrete representation of what the town actually looks like at street level; but if the town is merely mentioned in a single line of dialogue, the viewer hasn't learned anything except that the place exists. ”

Determining this requires a judgement call. Punxsutawney in Groundhog Day clearly meets this criterion. Paradise in "Blowups Happen" is a closer call, but the text does describe the town in some detail. John Sauter (talk) 21:52, 17 March 2021 (UTC)

I have reinstated the “In popular culture” section and added "Blowups Happen" to it. I have included the story's description of Paradise, AZ, to justify the refeence. John Sauter (talk) 16:44, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

part 2

My edit, described above, was again deleted, with this comment:

This is original research; there is nothing in the quote to support any connection to this article, except the coincidental name. Please seek a consensus on the talk page, or find a secondary source to support this edit.

As the section above shows, I have tried to seek consensus. I have quoted the appropriate Wikipedia rule, and I feel that my edit meets the rule. I waited three days for a response to my posting here, and receiving none I reinstated my contribution, with additional text to demonstrate that "Blowups Happen" does not simply refer to the town but describes it. If anyone feels that my contribution does not meet Wikipedia's standards, please respond here. John Sauter (talk) 22:40, 20 March 2021 (UTC)

@John Sauter: You may want to try WP:THIRD. Magnolia677 (talk) 09:56, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

third party discussion

At the suggesion of the other editor, I am requesting the opinion of a third party. I will pose the question as follows:

Robert A. Heinlein's story "Blowups Happen" describes a town in Arizona named Paradise, as he imagines it would be in the late twentieth century. Is an entry for "Blowups Happen" appropriate for the "In popular culture" section of the Wikipedia page of Paradise, AZ?. Both editors think the involvement of a third party on the talk page would be helpful.

John Sauter (talk) 15:03, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

3O Response: Bravo for seeking a 3rd opinion. I applaud your spirit. The guidance here is likely to be found in MOS:CULTURALREFS. That suggests you'll need to cite some WP:SECONDARY source to warrant an entry "in popular culture". I.e if someone else has linked the Heinlein piece to the place, then the reference is fit for inclusion. That aside, personally, I'm in favour of such references because they're often entertaining trivia, and are sometimes the vector through which some reader will discover your article. So if you can find the some published article or whatnot that links "Blowups" and the real Paradise, go for it. End of opinion. Nice one for going down this route. Chumpih. (talk) 16:00, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Thank you, Chumpih. for contributing to this discussion. I found a secondary source which supports the identification of the real Paradise, AZ, with the town in "Blowups Happen"—"A Heinlein Corcordance". contains this entry:

Paradise, Arizona

   Mining town in Cochise County, now a ghost town. The town's post office opened in 1901 and was discontinued in 1943; the mine had closed in 1907. 

("Blowups Happen", To Sail Beyond the Sunset)

Thus, the editor of the Heinlein Concordance, at least, thinks the literary reference is to the actual town. Is this sufficient to justify the entry in "In pupular culture"? John Sauter (talk) 16:39, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Oh, that's a tricky one! The citation you gave at heinleinsociety.org is borderline, since MOS:CULTURALREFS suggests that there should ideally be some indication of relevance. In my opinion, go for it - the article would likely benefit. That said, you may wish to perhaps find other, better references, and/or seek a further opinion. Re. the 'real place', you could perhaps provide some context and framing in the eventual words in the article. Chumpih. (talk) 17:00 + 17:10, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

I found this text in the introduction to the Heinlein Concordance:

This Concordance provides definitions for the people, places, and things in Robert Heinlein's novels and "Future History" stories. It contains two sets of pages: alphabetical lists, and lists organized by book/story. Use the links at the top to view the alphabetical pages. To view the "story" pages click the story name in the list in the left sidebar.

If all or part of an entry label is a hyperlink, it's a reference to something in the real world. Some of the references are obvious, for example, a spaceship named after Albert Einstein. But many are obscure enough that the descriptions of the real-world references might make fascinating reading.

The following novels and stories are included in the Concordance. (All novels except For Us, the Living and The Pursuit of the Pankera are included, but only those short stories related to the Future History.)

This Concordance has not had significant update since 2013 and is provided as a convenience by The Heinlein Society.

Is this, or part of it, or a summary of it, what you meant by "some context and framing"? Or were you suggesting some context and framing based on the story itself? I included the text of the description of the town, but perhaps I should have summarized it instead, unless that would be considered Original Research. John Sauter (talk) 17:30, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

Hi User:John Sauter and User:Magnolia677. To a first approximation, it's up to you. Find your consensus. I won't object to anything you do here. Re. "some context and framing", a suggestion could be something like "According to the editor of [1], Heinlein's story "Blowups" is based somewhat on Paradise". Or something far better than this poor suggestion. You are the bosses here - I'm just offering an opinion. Chumpih. (talk) 19:58, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

A Heinlein Concordance appears to be a personal blog, and is not a reliable source. Magnolia677 (talk) 22:01, 21 March 2021 (UTC)

The Heinlein Concordance is not a personal blog. It is a secondary source, with references to the primary sources. It is published by The Heinlein Society, 3553 Atlantic Avenue, #341, Long Beach, CA 90807-5606, which also sponsored a scholarship program "The Heinlein Society Scholarship Program". among other things. John Sauter (talk) 03:27, 22 March 2021 (UTC)

Having seen no response to my objection to the claim that the Heinlein Concordance is a personal blog, I have restored my reference to Heinlien's "Blowups Happen" with the additional information suggested by Chumpih.. John Sauter (talk) 13:52, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

part 4

My update was again reverted, with the comment “please find a reliable source to support this”. Apparently this editor does not believe that the Heinlein Concordance is a reliable source, but he refuses to engage with me on the talk page, so I cannot ask him what it is about the Heinlein Concordance that makes it unreliable, and what would constitute a reliable source for what Heinlein was thinking about when he wrote the story. John Sauter (talk) 20:53, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

The source cited is a personal personal webpage by someone named "M. E. Cowan". This person has included their personal Yahoo Mail address in order to contact them. Self-generated content is not reliable per WP:RSSELF. Regardless, the information in the source does not support the edit anyway. You may wish to start a discussion at WP:RSN. Magnolia677 (talk) 23:14, 26 March 2021 (UTC)

You have raised two independent objections: that the source is unsuitable and that it does not support the edit. Let us discuss your second objection first, since if it is true the first objection is unimportant.

Can you please explain how the description of Paradise, AZ, in A Heinlein Concordance does not support the identification of the town in "Blowups Happen" with the real Paradise, AZ? What sort of source would you regard as supporting such an identification? For example, Homer wrote about a city he called Troy. Archeologists searched for a city in the location Homer described, and think they have found it. Hypothetically, is there any source that you would find satisfactory for identifying Homer's Troy with an actual city? John Sauter (talk) 16:40, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Just find a reliable source (not a personal blog) to support that Blowups Happen is specifically based on Paradise, Arizona (the one mentioned in this article). Perhaps someone interviewed the author and the author said, "oh yes, I based my book on Paradise, Arizona, even though nothing I wrote about in the book bears any resemblance to the ghost town in Arizona". Maybe the author just liked the name "Paradise, Arizona", and decided to write a science fiction novel about it? Magnolia677 (talk) 17:40, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

I confess myself defeated. I can find no record of any reference by Robert Heinlein to Paradise, AZ, other than quotations from "Blowups Happen". I do think your standards are too high: you will not find any record of an interview with Homer in which he states that his Troy was modeled on an actual city. Rather, opinion about the identification of Troy is based on circumstancial evidence.

To address your first objection, I have corresponded with Ms. M. E. Cowan and she agrees with you that A Heinlein Concordance is a personal blog and should not be cited by Wikipedia as an authorative source. John Sauter (talk) 18:49, 27 March 2021 (UTC)

Wow, User:John Sauter, I salute both your dedication and your honesty! I will learn from your example. Chumpih. (talk) 17:42, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

@Chumpih: I actually think you could learn more from my example, but whatever. Magnolia677 (talk) 17:54, 30 March 2021 (UTC)

@Magnolia677: Frankly, you're both excellent. Chumpih. (talk) 18:19, 30 March 2021 (UTC)