Talk:Pansy

Is this plant for outside? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.55.226.124 (talk) 17:10, 8 March 2023 (UTC)

Nomenclature and article title

I'm confused... Viola is a genus, not a family of plant and the common name of Viola is violet not pansy. But then plants, especially decorative flowers, always gave me a headache in taxonomy class. --mav

I'm confused too. If it's a mistake I made, I apologize. I tried to paste in info directly from the ITIS page, but it's not my area of expertise.... wait a minute, I don't have an area of expertise.  ;-) Maybe I should leave the taxoboxes alone, aside from putting in the pic. They're constantly vexing for me. --KQ

No need to apologize. Plant taxonomy is really difficult sometimes and is often confusing, unless you are are expert in it (which I'm not either). I will take a look at the table and fix it later. Howver, most of the taxoboxes you have made are fine so don't let this discourage you. But at the same time don't feel obligated to insert them if making them becomes unpleasant. The text and the images are far more important. Yours in the wiki, --mav 07:00 Dec 13, 2002 (UTC)

I've been eminently discourageable lately. Stress from creative endeavors not panning out. At any rate, thanks, I'll keep at it with the taxoboxes.  :-) --KQ

I moved the article because there are many species of flowers in the violet genus (and probably others) that are called pansies. Pansy now redirects here but should probably become a disambiguation page in the future. --mav

I'll defer to your judgement on it.  :-) --KQ (a writer, a photographer, a film buff, not a taxonomist)

Well, I'm not a taxonomist either so I could have messed it up myself. Flowers vex me. --mav

I'm a bit sceptical about this move, on several grounds. There are other Violas that are called pansy - but so far as I can find, they are always (something) pansy, e.g. the Yellow Pansy (which I'll do a page on soon, I've got a nice photo). The only other plant I've ever found that is called a pansy is the Pansy Monkeyflower, Mimulus pulchellus - very occasionally the "Monkeyflower" is dropped. To all intents and purposes the pansy tout court is always either V. tricolor or a hybrid involving it. Conversely, I have never heard a Pansy called a Violet Pansy - is this a US name for it? It must be a secondary name, anyway, because of "pansy"'s derivation from the French. Furthermore, and tellingly, both the text of the article and virtually every link we have to it refer to "Pansy" not to "Violet Pansy". So it seems to me the principal name of the page ought to be "Pansy".

On the other hand the wild type of V. tricolor should undoubtedly be called the Heartsease (or Johnny Jump Up in N. America, though that name seems to applied to several species) and not the Pansy. Maybe we should have separate pages, one on Heartsease (an interesting plant with a lot of uses in herbalism), and the other on cultivated pansies, both species and hybrid.

seglea 07:13, 11 Apr 2004 (UTC)

subsequently modifed because I found some errors in what I'd written - how do you do that crossing out trick? seglea 06:08, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

OK, I have now turned the page into a pure garden plant page, and will go and write something separate about the Heartsease. But I won't changed the name, pending discussion with mav. seglea 06:21, 12 Apr 2004 (UTC)

'Pansy' is OK so long as it is really unambiguous. --mav

Name now changed back to Pansy in the light of the discussion above. seglea 19:29, 20 Apr 2004 (UTC)

I'd like to add the following to the naming area: In Portugal, the pansy is know as 'perfect love' (amor perfeito). — Preceding unsigned comment added by JoFig (talk • contribs) 02:14, 25 April 2017 (UTC)

Reproduction

do pansies undergoe asexual reproduction at anytime in their life cylce? i assume since they are a flowering plant they undergo sexual reproduction, but i was wandering if they can do both? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.133.93.241 (talk) 01:24, 12 August 2006 (UTC)

Vandalism

hi. bit of vandalism; I undid it. Will davies 10:08, 25 September 2007 (UTC)

hi. Persistent vandalism. I asked for page protection. I got it. KDS4444^Talk 16:33, 25 September 2015 (UTC)

How-to tag

Today I found this article's tag about instructions and how-to content. What I've done was some minor editing in the following areas: in the last paragraph of the "Cultivation, breeding and life cycle" section, and in the "Stem rot", "Watering", "Leaf spot", "Cucumber mosaic virus", "Slugs and snails" and "Aphids" sections. This was all done in an effort to assist in rewriting the how-to content, by using "should", "must" and "can" constructions and other grammatic reconstructions to replace imperative statements. I hope that what I attempted was helpful, and any constructive comments or advice will be welcome. I actually do have a question to pose, however (out of curiosity): will it take any extra work before the "how-to" tag can be removed? If so, how much? Entrepreneur68 (talk) 00:25, 20 April 2008 (UTC)

Myths

Prior contributor added/edited Myths section. I think a Myths or Folklore subsection is a good idea. The present one needs significant editing. All I had time and knowledge for was wikifying the header Myths. GRBerry 13:59, 21 April 2006 (UTC)

Bred in North or South?

In this edit, a significant change was made:

http://wiki.riteme.site/w/index.php?title=Pansy&diff=next&oldid=107619756

I'm not sure if the original is current or the newer edit is correct. Since this article has been vandalismed a fair amount, this statement should be double checked.

Clemwang 03:52, 8 April 2007 (UTC)

Removed reference to North or South (of where?), could be anywhere --Melburnian 10:06, 15 October 2007 (UTC)

Why vilified?

How and why did the word 'pansy' become derogatory? The article says it has been that way "since Elizabethan times"... what happened in Elizabethan times? Is this sort of like a 'freedom fries' thing? :P —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.173.22.31 (talk) 16:29, 30 June 2008 (UTC)

Problems in Cultivars section

The Cultivars section mentions "The Universal Plus series of 21 cultivars" without any citation or explanation. Only an expert is likely to understand the words "series" and "cultivars" used here.

Another problem with this section is that this Series is stated as not including orange, yet the first cultivar shown is in fact orange!

Someone with knowledge of the subject matter should fix these problems. David spector (talk) 02:07, 19 November 2009 (UTC)

Spelling error

In the Traditions and Superstitions section where it says, "A German fable tells of how the pansy lost it perfume.", (it) should be (it's). RikkiAaron (talk) 21:19, 26 July 2011 (UTC)

Lol, (it's) is also wrong. It should be (its) 202.53.203.180 (talk) 03:49, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Great! But this was fixed years ago now... KDS4444 (talk) 05:16, 12 April 2017 (UTC)

Perennial, biennial or annual?

I've seen it mentioned as all three ... if there are multiple varieties that behave in different manners, a mention of that would be helpful. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 68.97.215.196 (talk) 15:40, 11 October 2012 (UTC)

appears to be subtly sexist language in the Historical Background section

Nit picky, but. The entry for Lady Mary Elizabeth Bennet reads "Under the supervision of her gardener, William Richardson" then a few sentences later, for James, Lord Gambier the text reads "under the advice and guidance of his gardener Thomson". This language implies that Lady Mary was subordinate to her gardener while James, Lord Gambier was merely advised by his. If Lady Bennet was in fact subordinate to Richardson then surely Richardson's role should be more emphasized, and if she was not, then I believe the implication should be struck. Additionally, Agricultural Extension pages at Texas A&M University and Iowa State University attribute the development of the modern pansy almost entirely to William Thompson, Lord Gambier's gardener.

A Google of other sources on the internet brought little illumination and nothing authoritative. Most of the sources I have run across are more anecdotal in nature, not scholarly. I hope there is an historian available who would know the truth of this matter. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Rosewateradm (talk • contribs) 13:35, 18 August 2012 (UTC)

What about container plants?

Is there any information specific to leaving them out over night when the temp goes below 40 deg f.? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.124.11.250 (talk) 00:22, 9 April 2014 (UTC)

Taxobox and nomenclatural issues

"Pansies" are clearly cultivated plants, so their nomenclature should follow the International Code of Nomenclature for Cultivated Plants (ICNCP). The International Cultivar Registration Authority (ICRA) for Viola is the American Violet Society. Unfortunately their webpages don't seem to follow the ICNCP; in particular their classification of cultivars doesn't use the term "Group" as would be expected. However, if "pansy" means anything in terms of the ICNCP it surely means what the ICRA calls "(B1) Pansies". All but "(B1a) Early Pansies" should have a "blotch". So:

• The present taxobox should be replaced by some kind of cultivar box.
• The article could then be about "pansies" as per the American Violet Society – many of the current images appear to be of "(B2) Violas", a key difference being that "garden violas are almost totally devoid of the consolidation of rays that form the blotch".
• An alternative approach would be to say that all of Viola section Melanium are "pansies" (as per the RHS reference given and Kuta et al. here at p. 18), so this article is about "Viola section Melanium cultivars". However, at least in the UK, "garden pansies" are distinct from "garden violas" – the former have larger flowers, normally with large blotches and are less hardy than the latter which have smaller flowers, usually with only ray markings and are more frost-hardy, so "Pansy" would then seem to me to be a misleading title.

Peter coxhead (talk) 17:05, 29 October 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 April 2021

In Italy the pansy is known as flammola (little flame).

should be changed to

In Italy the pansy is known as Viola del Pensiero. (Literally "Pansy of the thought") 188.13.243.40 (talk) 11:47, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

(I'm from Italy and that's how we call it here, flammola is not correct)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. -- Asartea ^{Talk | Contribs} 16:22, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

• Yeah what Asartea said. It's plausible that you are correct: The source right now is from 1829. However you would need a source, Italy. Invasive Spices (talk) 17:08, 24 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 16 January 2023

Hello, would it be possible to change the sentence under Etymology:

In Scandinavia,[13] Scotland, and German-speaking countries, the pansy (or its wild parent Viola tricolor) is or was known as the "stepmother"; the name was accompanied by an aitiological tale about a selfish stepmother, told to children while the teller plucked off corresponding parts of the blossom to fit the plot.[14]

to

In Scandinavia,[13] Scotland, German and West Slavic-speaking countries, the pansy (or its wild parent Viola tricolor) is or was known as the "stepmother"; the name was accompanied by an aitiological tale about a selfish stepmother, told to children while the teller plucked off corresponding parts of the blossom to fit the plot.[14]

Reason: in Both Czech and Slovenian the flower (Maceška in Czech and Mačeha in Slovenian, respectively) is likewise related to the term step-mother (Macecha and Mačeha respectively) and relates to the historic German influence.

In Slovak they are called "sirotky" - literally "orphans" which is also related to the mythology.

Thank you. Mastovacek (talk) 21:32, 16 January 2023 (UTC)

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 18:03, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

here are links to the definitions of the words from the Czech Language institute, part of the Czech academy of Sciences, the official arbiter of the Czech Language:

macecha (motherinlaw) - https://ssjc.ujc.cas.cz/search.php?hledej=Hledat&heslo=macecha&sti=EMPTY&where=hesla&hsubstr=no

maceška (pansy) - https://ssjc.ujc.cas.cz/search.php?heslo=mace%C5%A1ka&sti=35043&where=hesla&hsubstr=no

here is likewise an article from the academy dicussing folk names for plants in Czech: http://nase-rec.ujc.cas.cz/archiv.php?art=4741

likewise the existing entries from wiktionary: https://cs.wiktionary.org/wiki/mace%C5%A1ka, https://cs.wiktionary.org/wiki/macecha

here is a link to an online article from the publication Nový prostor on the folk etymology of the name of the flower in Czech and Slovak - https://novyprostor.cz/clanky/525/maceska-dama-s-neobycejnou-povesti

All these sources are in Czech, but you can use the translate function of your browser to confirm. Mastovacek (talk) 18:59, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

@Mastovacek: Hey, sorry for dragging my heels on this, I'm trying to make sure we get this right. The Novy Prostor article mentions the connection to the word Czech word "stepmother", but the etiological tale seems to be different, so I don't want to just stick it into the preceding sentence. I also don't know that we can use the Novy Prostor article as a source for a separate etiological tale, given that Novy Prostor isn't scholarly and how weak its confidence in it is ("it is said…"). What do you think about instead adding the following after that sentence: The association of the flower with a stepmother also exists in Czech; in Slovak, it is known as an orphan. Of course, if you have another source more confident about the origin (real or otherwise) of the identity, we might be able to add more detail. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:46, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Wait, that's not right. Of course it's worded that way, it's describing an etiological tale. Alternative proposal: The association of the flower with a stepmother also exists in Czech, where it is attributed to the flower's resemblance of an evil woman's sullen face; in Slovak, it is known as an orphan. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 22:48, 24 January 2023 (UTC)

Hi, that is okay, and I understand your reticence, but the point is the Czech and German (and Slovenian) are directly related. The Czech name Maceška is the diminutive term of Macecha - stepmother - i.e. little stepmother, and the name in German also literally translates to "little stepmother". Unfortunately the source in the Wiki (13) is now broken so I cannot see what was originally referred to, whether a specific Swedish myth or more generalized, but other sources like this one: https://herbsocietyblog.wordpress.com/tag/herb-lore/, or here https://www.localgardener.net/about-pansies/ - also show that in German the reasoning of the name was likewise directly related to the form of the flower itself (i.e. the stepmother being one petal and the step-children the others). The Czech (and Slovenian) are calques of the German term, (similar to other folk stories like Wassermen being also translated directly to vodník from voda/water/wasser). And the Slovak folk name also shows the flipside of that naming coin, where the orphaned children got naming precedence over the Stepmother. And I think that direct relation should be reflected to give a better idea of the interaction of the folk myth between these languages. The existing paragraph in the wiki already makes reference to both (the name of the flower deriving from the form/components of the flower and how those forms play their role in the tale). Mastovacek (talk) 11:47, 25 January 2023 (UTC)

The difficulty is that I don't know exactly what the existing source says. I've requested it via interlibrary loan; it should hopefully arrive within the next two weeks. Once I know, I'll be able to synthesize everything properly. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 16:49, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

@Compassionate727: any progress on getting the source? I will mark this request as "answered", as it is waiting on further information to complete GiovanniSidwell (talk) 17:46, 24 February 2023 (UTC)

Yes, I have it. I need to set aside a couple hours to read it, which I won't have for another couple of weeks. But I will get back to this. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 16:51, 26 February 2023 (UTC)

@Mastovacek: As it turns out, the sentence in the article is pretty much the entirety of what the cited source says. I have expanded the article with the information in the sources you provided. I remain reluctant to say that the Czech etiological tale is the same as the German one because it appears not to be, but if you have sources showing otherwise, I am happy to reconsider and update the article accordingly. Meanwhile, I have noted how the German and Czech names are semantically identical, which should communicate how the flower is being treated the same way in both languages. Let me know if you have any further questions or objections. —Compassionate727 ^(T·C) 15:32, 18 March 2023 (UTC)