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Ethnic Macedonian

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The source does not say that he himself described as Macedonian, please do not insert partsan links. ForeignerFromTheEast 00:02, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Hello ForeignerFromTheEast and thank you for using the talk page this time. I will start of with the link. It is a scan of an official document and therefore non-partisan. The site is owned by the Soros Foundation [[1]] it is a "private operating and grantmaking foundation, aims to shape public policy to promote democratic governance, human rights, and economic, legal, and social reform." it is owned by neither a Bulgarian or Macedonian and is therefore also unbiased and non-partisan. On the other hand the links you provide are all from Bulgarian sources and in this case it is a conflict of interest and unfortunately cannot be taken as "non partisan".Ireland101 —Preceding comment was added at 01:08, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Not quite. It is soros.com.mk and it is infamous for its falsified pieces of historical materials. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:17, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Soros.com.mk is still owned by the Soros foundation. Your claim that it is "infamous for its falsified pieces of historical materials" is new to me. Please provide a link to support you accusation.Ireland101 —Preceding comment was added at 01:22, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
Sure: this is the falsified version: [2]. This is the true version: Image:Bulgarian Folk Songs.jpg. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:26, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I do not think anything is falsified, it just seems that they cropped the image a little off at the top. In order for them to have falsified it they would have had to add information or change it. Ireland101 —Preceding comment was added at 01:30, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The information is changed. "Bulgarian" is lost from the title "Bulgarian folk songs". This is a clear falsification. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:33, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
I am trying to understand your logic however I am having troubles. If someone cropped off(accidentally or intentionaly, it is unknown) the word Encyclopedia off of Encyclopedia Brittanica would that be "falsification". I don't think so.Ireland101 01:40, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
It means that they are either careless or choosing to hide information. Either way unreliable source. ForeignerFromTheEast 01:45, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
The word propagamda just slips off your tongue. This is a clear case. --Laveol T 09:20, 25 October 2007 (UTC)[reply]
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R:E Unhelpful Edit

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@Local Hero

Hello, can you please clarify how my edit was an unhelpful edit and why I need to get consensus on talk?

--James Richards (talk) 11:54, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hello. Unhelpful because it does nothing to improve the content of this stable article. Consensus because it's been challenged (by me). Not sure if you read up to the second sentence but it's dealt with sufficiently there. I also don't see a source on the page stating "Brashnarov was Bulgarian". He was the first speaker of ASNOM. --Local hero talk 13:40, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero

I don't agree that it does nothing to improve the article, it highlights from the first line the ethnicity of the person and I made the change that based on other parts of the article which opposing to your statement 'I also don't see a source on the page stating "Brashnarov was Bulgarian"' there are sources about how he self-identified as Bulgarian and was part of People's Federative Party (Bulgarian Section), was part of the Bulgarian army in WW1, the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (United) and was one of the founders of the Bulgarian Action Committees.

"He was the first speaker of ASNOM." I don't get what this point has to do about anything, on the ASNOM article it says " The most important assembly decisions are the proclaiming of a Macedonian nation-state of ethnic Macedonians, proclamation of the Macedonian language as the official language of the Macedonian state. The citizens of Macedonia, regardless of their ethnic affiliation, were guaranteed all civil rights, as well as the right to their mother tongue and confession of faith.


ASNOM Memorial Center in Pelince The first session was opened with the anthem of the Internal Macedonian Revolutionary Organization (IMRO) "Rise up dayspring of the freedom", which became also the anthem of the newly proclaimed republic. However, in the next year it was banned by the authorities as bulgarophile sentiment."

"According to some researchers, the first session was heavily manipulated by the pro-Yugoslav representatives, and the absence of more than 50% of the elected delegates made it illegitimate."

Also Brashnarov was sent to prison where he died for his Bulgarophile leanings.

How can this edit be unhelpful or destabilizing if its a common part of virtually all articles about people on Wikipedia?

Please if you can reply, so we can come to a conclusion, thanks.

--James Richards (talk) 14:02, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero

Also I don't really understand your request for an additioanl quote for verifitability for the statement "whereas historians in Bulgaria consider him a Bulgarian." Isn't it obvious that Bulgarian historians see him as a Bulgarian?

--James Richards (talk) 14:11, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

We don't decide what's obvious, we work based on sources, so thanks to Jingiby for providing that. I'm fine with the article as of his latest revision. --Local hero talk 15:16, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero

Can you also reply to my other comment please, and take a look at the sources and evidence about his life and then come back to me with your opinion on my edit.

--James Richards (talk) 15:22, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero

"We don't decide what's obvious, we work based on sources, so thanks to Jingiby for providing that. I'm fine with the article as of his latest revision.". I mean I am not surprised that you are fine with the article as of the latest revision by Jingiby as it does not address the edit that is currently being discussed in this talk.

Regardless of what wee terminology you throw around such as 'unhelpful', this is an encyclopedia and it is about accuracy so lets keep the discussion with evidence about why my edit is not correct as the only real issue here is whether it is factually true or not, not whether certain people will be upset with it. --James Richards (talk) 17:35, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

You really don't need to @ me on every comment. Reading through the article, one can see that his ethnicity isn't so clear-cut as you wish to make it. We're best off leaving it as it is now. --Local hero talk 19:33, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero

I at you so you can see the notification and reply quicker to keep this discussion going. Can you explain how it is not clear cut with some examples and sources, after all this is the point of a discussion. I made an edit that you described in your edit summary as unhelpful and then told me to discuss it but now you don't want to do that thus essentially trying to stop me from making this edit by not actively participating in the discussion at all but instead pretending we came to some concensus. --James Richards (talk) 20:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

As the one trying to make this change, the burden of proof is on you to prove that labelling Brashnarov as a Bulgarian in the lead sentence is appropriate. So far you've just pointed out some text about Bulgarophile leanings. Note that I'm not making any claims about his ethnicity, rather I'm stating the article is dealing with the subject fine as-is. --Local hero talk 20:29, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero Come on Bulgarophile leanings is a bit of an understatement.... he went to a Bulgarian school, fought for the Bulgarian army in WW1 founded the Bulgarian Action Committees and was part of the IMARO which only allowed Bulgarians to join them and fight for Bulgaria, just read the statute of the IMARO.

Art. 1. The goal of BMARC is to secure full political autonomy for the Macedonia and Adrianople regions . Art. 2. To achieve this goal they [the committees] shall raise the awareness of self-defense in the Bulgarian population in the regions mentioned in Art. 1., disseminate revolutionary ideas – printed or verbal, and prepare and carry on a general uprising.

Chapter II. – Structure and Organization Art. 3. A member of BMARC can be any Bulgarian, independent of gender, ...

Can you please explain to me how these examples show that he is not a Bulgarian? Also you are obviously taking a position which is that he is not a Bulgarian, if you are going to be part of this discussion make an effort at least by providing some reasoning behind your position and considering the points I am making rather than ignoring them now multiple times. --James Richards (talk) 20:45, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I guess we'll just leave it up to dispute resolution . --Local hero talk 21:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero lol are you not gonna discuss the evidence I presented, I want to know what you think about it. --James Richards (talk) 21:14, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I think you need to read WP:SYNTH, the first sentence in particular. --Local hero talk 21:18, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero I just read it and I do not get your point about it, each example by itself show the nationality of this figure.

-He attended and graduated from a Bulgarian Exarchate school with the Bulgarian Exarchate being heavily criticized at the time for its ethno-national characteristics. There was only two main churches in what is now North Macedonia which were the Bulgarian Exarchate and Greek Exarchate,there was no Macedonian Exarchate(https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Bulgarian_Exarchate).

  • After that he graduated from another Bulgarian school, a pedagogical school in Skopje.
  • He joined the People's Federative Party (Bulgarian Section) which was a party only for Bulgarians.
  • He took further education in the Bulgarian city of Plovdiv.
  • He fought for the Bulgarian army in WW1 at the battle of Dorian.
  • Founding member of the Bulgarian Action Committees political organization.
  • Imprisoned for critizising de-bulgarization of Macedonian population where he died.

I don't see how him being part of the Yugoslav party disproves his nationality since being Yugoslavian is a collective identity if you like. I don't understand why he would be so involved in Bulgarian political parties, go to multiple Bulgarian schools in and outside Bulgaria as well as fight for Bulgaria in one of the world's biggest wars. There is a clear difference between political and national separatism. I don't see why you are acting like this, by asking for a discussion and then not contributing to it. Can you at least provide me with some reasons that you doubt his ethnicity as Bulgarian?--James Richards (talk) 21:43, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero

"What a thoughtful summation of an entire ethnic group in your Dispute overview and your unbiased belief as to how this applies to my own editing. Shall I opine on my perception of your editing bias, seeing as your edits rarely go beyond throwing "Bulgarian" in historical bios or "North" in front of any mention of Macedonia (where it refers to the modern country)? Please don't disparage my editing as going around disputing the ethnicities of historical figures because I rarely do.

On topic, I think the situation is pretty clear. The editor attempting to make the change finds the ethnic identity of the individual to be clear-cut. Upon reading the article, I disagree and find the present state to be sufficient (i.e. second sentence of the article). Brashnarov was in the Yugoslav Communist Party and fought against the Axis in WWII. He was also the first speaker of the Anti-fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia, celebrated by Macedonians to this day because it declared Macedonia the nation-state of ethnic Macedonians in Yugoslavia and declared the Macedonian language the official language of the state. In addition, nationality is typically put in the lead sentence of biographical articles, not ethnicity. Going by that, Ottoman and Yugoslav would be better suited. " - Local hero from dispute talk page.

I wish you put as much effort on the actual discussion page where I try to weight up the evidence and discuss it without you. And sorry if I offended you I was just trying to explain why this discussion is so contentious.

I don't find the situation clear cut at all but based on what evidence is available I believe that he is Bulgarian and have actively tried to discuss it with you as you requested to get your point of view and reasoning but you just reply with a few sentences at best that rarely directly address the points I am making. And sorry if this offends you but the Macedonian nationality is one of the newest European nationalities as long with that of Kosovans, Montenegrins and Moldovans. The Macedonian language was codified in 1945 and what is now North Macedonia first becoming an independent country in 1991. I don't know why you are taking it personally but those are the factual realities in regards to that.

  • "Brashnarov was in the Yugoslav Communist Party and fought against the Axis in WWII", the fact that he was in the Yugoslav Communist Party does not mean that he was not a Bulgarian as the Yugoslav identity is a collective one of South Slavic people with Serbs, Croatians, Bulgarians for example being able to be classed as Yugoslavs such as Soviet is an umbrella term for different groups of people living in the USSR. As for fighting against the Axis in WWII that is true but it only occured in 1943 which is two years after Bulgaria had annexed Macedonia and during which time he had been living in that territory and even founded an organization called the Bulgarian Action Committees as well as working as a Bulgarian teacher.
  • "He was also the first speaker of the Anti-fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia", the fact that he was the first active speaker of the Anti-fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia again does not disprove his nationality as being Bulgarian as it was open for all people living inside the territory of Macedonia or Vardar Macedonia as it was known at the time which included Serbs, Albanians, Vlachs, Turks and Roma. Let alone the fact that Brashnarov has been in multiple political parties and organizations where membership was exclusively just for Bulgarians as well as co-founding an organization called the Bulgarian Action Committees.
  • "celebrated by Macedonians to this day because it declared Macedonia the nation-state of ethnic Macedonians in Yugoslavia and declared the Macedonian language the official language of the state. In addition, nationality is typically put in the lead sentence of biographical articles, not ethnicity. Going by that, Ottoman and Yugoslav would be better suited.", Most of this is just a load of waffling, just because Brashnarov was an initial member of this organization does not mean he was involved or approved of such measures, the Anti-fascist Assembly for the National Liberation of Macedonia, the Serbs had major influence in the organization such as removing the "Rise up dayspring of the freedom' anthem of the party for being too Bulgarian for example with Brashnarov. (Мичев, Добрин. Партизанското движение във Вардарска Македония, 1941–1944 г. сп. Македонски преглед, кн. 2, стр. 5–40.). Furthermore, after the Second World War, Brashnarov was sent to a forced labor camp by the the Yugoslavian government for criticising the de-Bulgarization of the Macedonian population.

Sourced summary of one of the letters to Stalin and Dimitrov in this article:

"The authors oppose Yugoslavia's policy of annexing Pirin and Aegean Macedonia. The Yugoslav Communist Party (YCP) is accused of interfering in Macedonia's domestic policy and ASNOM's activities, and of displaying extreme Serbian nationalism. They wrote that the goal pursued with the creation of the Macedonian alphabet is to Serbianize the Bulgarians in Macedonia. According to them, the Macedonian Communist Party acts entirely in the interest of the YCP and bans all Bulgarian books and newspapers, but makes an exception for Serbian ones. Bulgarian songs are also banned. The authors also wrote that the new Macedonian authorities curse everything Bulgarian, although it is a historical fact that the Ilinden insurgents were people with a Bulgarian national consciousness. The statement also reads: "The Macedonian leaders imposed by Belgrade are trying to crush everything Bulgarian without raising funds for it. Those who disagree with the YCP's policy are considered "unconscious Bulgarophiles."

People celebrating someone does not mean he is the same ethnicity as them, this is an encyclopedia at the end of the day. As I have come to find out lately Panko Brashnarov is not the only Bulgarian whose identity is disputed by Macedonians as you can see here https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Gotse_Delchev, https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Yane_Sandanski and https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Aleksandar_Turundzhev.


For extra sources @Jingiby can provide some more insight if he wishes to as my South Balkan language profeciency is not that great.

It is important to weight up all of the evidence available, I don't care if he is Bulgarian or Macedonian I am just aiming for factual accuracy but unfortunately it has only been a one man show in this discussion with what I feel like the other party taking things personally, but at least he has called me a Bulgarian yet like he did in a previous discussion haha (just joking nothing personal). I am happy to consider other points of views and sources.

--James Richards (talk) 22:44, 27 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero I am still waiting for you to properly discuss my points, also I was taking a look at the categories of this article and he is already listed as a Bulgarian revolutionary so I don't see how you can class my edit as destabilizing the article. --James Richards (talk) 13:04, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero How do you feel about adding Macedonian Bulgarian instead of just Bulgarian? --James Richards (talk) 13:19, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Macedonian Bulgarians are a regional group of ethnic Bulgarians, so no. We have not established that Brashnarov had such a consciousness. Do you understand the point of your dispute resolution entry? You and I disagree (a dispute) and we're awaiting opinions of others at that entry. Please stop pestering me with a million pings. Regurgitating the same lines in different words does nothing to convince me of your unfounded position. --Local hero talk 13:35, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero You need to relax and stop being so emotional or angry about this, and stop with the personal attacks and namecalling on other parts of Wikipedia. I don't see why you don't want to take a look at and discuss what I am presenting with you, like tell me why you do not agree with my points so I can understand your point of view? I am coming to the view that you never wanted to have a genuine discussion with me but just wanted to stop me making that edit and then blocking it by not participating in a discussion about the different sources. Can I just ask you, why and how Brashnarov would be part of so many Bulgarian schools, Bulgarian political organizations, be part of the Bulgarian army as well as write letters to the the leader of Bulgaria criticizing the policies of de-Bulgarization going on in Yugoslavia that led to his imprisonment and death. Just answer this question for me, you never came into this discussion to discuss anything from the looks of it. --James Richards (talk) 13:44, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Do you realize you're asking me to deduce his ethnic consciousness based on things he did? We do not make deductions or assumptions on Wikipedia. I've assumed good faith on your part long enough but you make intentionally non-neutral edits that other established editors do not make. Notice that I would be considered to have opposing viewpoints to Jingiby but we basically never end up in disputes because he makes edits based on sources, even if they are slanted to his side at times. --Local hero talk 13:57, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I don't know what you mean by 'non-neutral edits', me correcting Macedonia,Macedonian when appropriate with North is not non-neutral, I have made some mistakes when doing it but I have acknowledged them and have apologized for them to you when I can see that they are wrong. And thanks to replying I understand what you mean now about making assumptions, I have posted a message on Jingiby's page about whether he has any sources about Brashnarov's self-identifying himself if you like. I did go the wrong way about this as I made the edit after reading all the info about him on the page that I have listed throughout this article, so yeah you are right in those regards, I will see what sources there are about my edit and get back if there is anything worth discussing. Apologies from my part. --James Richards (talk) 14:14, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Brashnarov was not a writer and had not left much as archives. At least I don't know about such. In contrast, Pavel Shatev, for example, was a writer and has left many such examples where he clearly identified as a Bulgarian. But their joint presentation to the Communist Party of the Soviet Union is a good example. It is from 1948, when Macedonian language was codified, but they wrote intentionally in Bulgarian. This entire presentation smells on extreme Bulgarophilia, anti-Yugoslavism and anti-Serbism. That's why they paid with their lives. Jingiby (talk) 14:24, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Local Hero Final time spamming you with pings haha, but based on what Jingbiy said above it is best to leave it just as revolutionary. Thanks for your time Local hero and wish you all the best, and sorry again for my low IQ that stopped me from understanding what this discussion was above. Also thanks Jingiby for your insight. I will shut down the dispute request too. --James Richards (talk) 14:28, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks Jingiby and Jamesrichards12345, just glad we came to an agreement here. Apologies if I came across as combative at times, Jamesrichards12345. --Local hero talk 14:58, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Don't worry, be happy, everybody. Regards. Jingiby (talk) 15:08, 28 July 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Bulgarian occupation of Macedonia in World War 2

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It says pretty clearly here https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Bulgaria_during_World_War_II#Occupation_in_Thrace_and_Macedonia that Bulgaria occupied Macedonia in World War 2. And only an idiot would say that occupation was "annexation".

Of course Wikipedia is not a source. Look for example: Bulgarians occupied and annexed Yugoslav and Greek Macedonia. in James Minahan, One Europe, Many Nations: A Historical Dictionary of European National Groups. Greenwood Publishing Group, 2000, ISBN 0313309841, p. 440. Bulgarians, aided by the Germans and Italians, occupied and annexed Yugoslav and Greek Macedonia. in James Minahan, Miniature Empires: A Historical Dictionary of the Newly Independent States, Greenwood Publishing Group, 1998, ISBN 0313306109, p. 178. Bulgarian-occupied (later annexed) areas of Yugoslav Macedonia. in Jozo Tomasevich, War and Revolution in Yugoslavia, 1941-1945: Occupation and Collaboration, Volume 2, Stanford University Press, 2002, ISBN 0804779244, p. 161. Jingiby (talk) 18:38, 11 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

And it says the same thing here: https://www.britannica.com/place/Bulgaria/World-War-II

Boris’s alliance with Germany The desire for territorial expansion at the expense of Yugoslavia and Greece and the expectation of a German victory led Boris to join the Axis on March 1, 1941. German troops used Bulgaria as a base from which to attack Yugoslavia and Greece. In return, Bulgarian forces were permitted to occupy Greek Thrace, Yugoslav Macedonia, and part of Serbia.

I really wan't to know, do you Bulgarians have dementia or are you just plain stupid Jingiby? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 77.28.212.198 (talk) 13:00, 12 November 2020 (UTC)[reply]

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