Talk:Pagliacci

More pop culture

A hired clown performs the famous part of the song (as in the UNTOUCHABLES) for a dinner in the 2006 movie "10th & Wolf" (about the mob)

The 11th century

Does anyone get this? Herbivore 02:45, 5 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Engelbert Humperdinck's "when there's no you"

Would it be appropriate to add a mention of Engelbert Humperdinck's "when there's no you" in the popular culture section? The melody in the chorus of "When There's No You" is almost identical to the part of "vesti la giubba" that goes:

Ridi, Pagliaccio, sul tuo amore infranto, ridi del duol che t'avvelena il cor!

(an english translation that I found and spellchecked)

Laugh, Pagliaccio, over your shattered love, laugh at the pain that is poisoning your heart!

Here are the lyrics to Humperdinck's song:

My heart is breaking. It was yours for the taking. You said we're through, What can I do, When there's no you?

Thanks in advance for your input. Ycaps123 21:04, 7 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Since I didn't get any feedback, Ill go ahead and make the proposed addition. Ycaps123 20:01, 11 March 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Pagliacci in popular culture

Is it time to hive off the section Pagliacci in popular culture and make it into a new page? - Kleinzach 08:29, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I would say no. This page isn't all that long as it is, and "Pagliacci in popular culture" is much too specific a subject. I don't think anybody is going to search for that. Kafziel 13:58, 24 April 2006 (UTC)[reply]

This section continues to grow and grow. Time to make it a separate article? - Kleinzach 09:34, 5 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I vaguely recall an episode of "It Takes a Thief" with Robert Wagner in which Vesti la Giubba had some role in the plot. Perhaps the Caruso recording was playing to cover up the sound of a theft. Louis Cohen 18:08, 19 January 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the material in this section bares [bears] little or no relationship to the opera that it either needs to be removed as trivia or separated. Viva-Verdi 22:24, 6 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I never saw the episode of "It Takes A Thief" but I have read "It" etc. I think that the article does not need to get anywhere near the "killer (scary, evil) clown" popular culture stuff. Jeez, this is an opera, and a great one. Wastrel Way (talk) 21:04, 22 December 2019 (UTC) Eric[reply]

I detest such additions. Not only do they trivialise the subject, they can never be complete, and are therefore unencyclopaedic.

One act?

The article states "It was to be one act long...". Is this correct? At what stage and for what reason did it become two acts? --David Edgar 11:18, 23 June 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Trivia

I have moved all the trivia relating to Vesti la giubba (six points) to that arias page. I have removed the following, as they have little reference to the opera specifically:

In the August 14, 1939, episode of the Shadow, "The Tenor With a Broke Voice", the plot revolved around murders occurring during a production of Pagliacci. The killer turned out to be the former star of the production, who lost his voice during a performance and wanted revenge.

Billie Holiday sang a song entitled "The Masquerade is Over" which included the lyrics, "I guess I'll have to play Pagliacci and get myself a clown's disguise / And learn to laugh like Pagliacci with tears in my eyes."

The January 26, 1966, episode of Batman, "The Joker is Wild", contained a scene in which the Joker appeared in a performance of Pagliacci. This scene contained the cliffhanger of the episode, and so was continued on the next episode, "Batman is Riled."

Pagliacci is referenced in the classic 1960s Northern soul song, "I can't get away" by Bobby Garrett, in the line, "Just like Pagliacci, the clown, sometimes I'm up, sometimes I'm down."

Pagliacci is referenced in the 1970 song, The Tears of a Clown by Smokey Robinson and the Miracles in the line, "Just like Pagliacci did, I try to keep my sadness hid."

In the 1987 film The Untouchables, Al Capone (played by Robert DeNiro), is attending a performance of the opera, openly crying, when his henchman, Frank Nitti, enters and tells him that he has killed Chicago Police Officer Jim Malone. Capone then stops crying and begins to quietly laugh.

Pagliacci is mentioned in a 1989 song, Your Bozo's Back Again, by Ray Stevens. The song compares the singer to a true fool, a clown, since he constantly returns to an unfaithful lover. The line states: "I might as well wear grease paint, the way I play my part, but like Pagliacci, I'm playing with a real, live broken heart."

In 1986, Alan Moore and Dave Gibbons' graphic novel Watchmen was first published. One of the book's characters, Rorschach, writes in his journal of a joke he once heard involving Pagliacci, in response to the death of another character, The Comedian. The joke consists of a man going to a doctor and complaining of depression. The doctor tells him to go to the show of the "great clown Pagliacci" in order to cheer him up. However, the man breaks down and cries, telling the doctor that he, in fact, is the clown Pagliacci. (Coming full circle with these pop culture Pagliacci references, this quote also reflects the oft-repeated lament that the perenially-depressed Groucho Marx was the only person in the world who didn't have Groucho Marx to cheer him up, as can be heard in the documentary The Unknown Marx Brothers, among other places.)

"The Opera", an episode of the American sitcom Seinfeld, features a spoof of Pagliacci, wherein the major characters attend a performance of the opera while "Crazy" Joe Davola disguises himself as Pagliaccio the clown to seek a tragic revenge.

The 1954 song Mr. Sandman contains the line, "Give him a lonely heart like Pagliacci, and lots of wavy hair like Liberace."

On December 11, 2005, The Simpsons premiered a new episode which consisted of the Simpson family going to Italy, and after a twist of events, ending up on stage for a Pagliacci show at the Colosseum, with Sideshow Bob, along with his wife and son, trying to kill the whole family as part of the act.

The most recent Batman Animated Series (The Batman) featured an episode in it's second season in which Bruce Wayne not only attends the Opera at the beginning but later on the Joker steals the original Pagliacci costume. The opening scene features Detective Yin's capture by the Joker and features music from the opera as does much of the episode with the Joker singing the aria "Vesti La Giubba" later on. (The Batman, Season 2 Episode 12, Strange Minds First Aired: Saturday September 3, 2005)

I think each of these will need to be examined by someone who has a broader view of these issues, to decide whether they stay or go. --Alexs letterbox 09:27, 30 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I agree with your editing and deletions. - Kleinzach 13:16, 31 July 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I don't see why many of these were deleted. They are, in act, references to this topic.

Please sign your comment. - Kleinzach 03:31, 2 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Please respond to the actual content of the message

Don't you hate it when someone doesn't do what they're supposed to Mr. Unsigned Comments. JeffyP 01:02, 20 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Most of the trivia in this section is just that: trivia - of little importance to THIS ARTICLE. It may have all sorts of wonderful relationships to other things, but it does not belong HERE. Viva-Verdi 02:42, 7 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry. I was working on a review of Pagliacci and found a lot of great information, but the information that I was looking for most, the information that would make the opera more relevant to a new audience was lacking. Every wikipedia page that deals with serious art should (and usually does) include this section that shows how great art has affected and influenced the minor art, pop art. So I found all these references in this discussion page and determined that they need be amended to the article. If people don't want to know it, it's clearly labeled as such and they can just skip it. Bansai618 (talk) 00:07, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Comment I agree with some aspects of what you are saying, and have defended properly referenced section likes this elsewhere. But the problem here is that this massive list (which swamps the article itself and in some places goes into unnecessary detail and personal opinion) is completely unreferenced. By the way, the external link for the Batman episode, nowhere mentions Pagliacci as the opera being performed. As a reference, its useless. How does the reader know that these assertions are true? The same rules concerning verifiability for articles in general, apply to "cultural references" lists too. Apart from the Seinfeld episode, the vast majority of trivia you've re-added is not even mentioned in the related Wikipedia articles, let alone referenced there.

There's also a conflation between the quotation or use of the actual opera, and the quotation of or reference to characters or concepts in operas. Leoncavallo didn't invent the weeping clown, or even the story of Pagliacci (he took it from a play by someone else). The sad or weeping clown goes back to the Commedia dell'arte and was also a classic figure in late Romantic French literature. Now, I could easily write that his opera, because of its popularity and probably Caruso's recording, gave a modern 'handle' to the very old concept of the weeping clown. But that's clearly straying into original research and synthesis. That's not a piece of common knowledge like "the Earth is round". It requires a published source.

Take a look at Cultural references to absinthe. Many of the entries in that list are referenced, although like all articles of this type it has now attracted a lot of 'drive-by' additions of unreferenced cruft, which for all reader knows could be complete fabrications. If the current section you've re-added were a separate article, it would be deleted as unreferenced original research. Why then should such a huge section sit in the article about Leoncavallo's opera? I tend to agree with your opinion concerning the pervasive use of Pagliacci as an archetype of Italian opera. But my opinion and your opinion are not enough. If you believe this is a really important topic, then why not start a properly researched and referenced Cultural references to Pagliacci with an introduction based on a reliable published source which talks in general about Pagliacci as influencing popular culture? At the moment, this is just your opinion based on synthesis. At the bare minimum you need to reference what's in this article. In a few days, I'm going to start removing all those items and assertions which are not referenced to reliable, verifiable sources. If you want an idea of what's required take a look at the relevant sections in Nessun dorma and Il trovatore. Voceditenore (talk) 07:38, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not joining the argument, okay? How this thread concludes is not my concern, not really. I'm just asking you guys to remove that citation tag for the Simpsons part, 'cuz I don't know how. The Simpsons episode referenced is The Italian Bob, episode 8 of the show's seventeenth season. Ther should be enough references to Pagliacci there.--Alphapeta (talk) 06:44, 10 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

While I understand some of the reasons to delete the trivia from the page, I'm not completely agreeing. There is a "in pop culture" section for Mott Street (https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Mott_Street#In_popular_culture) where it lists what I think is similar points to the ones here that are deleted from the article page. I understand and agree that for example the Watchmen joke reference is not about the opera, but when I looked up "Pagliacci", I wanted to learn about the clown. I was basically looking up the clown and the Watchmen reference fits as a "in pop culture" reference to the clown. So do the others, I think. Mixed feelings about this. But I really only know about Pagliacci through that Watchmen joke. So who am I to judge really. Just my 2 cents... 2A02:908:E841:57A0:112:1F8D:5C3F:2C28 (talk) 22:08, 12 September 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Disambiguation

I don't know if this should be a redirect from Pagliaccio, who is a character in the commedia dell'arte. I think Pagliaccio should get his own page, and there could be a disambiguation thing about it.--Sobekneferu 06:50, 21 September 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Title

Now, I may be wrong, but I thought it was "Il Pagliacci"? Or am I completely mistaken? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Adam Cuerden (talk • contribs)

As I understand it (and I'm no expert on Italian), "pagliacci" is plural. And "il" is the singular definite article ("i" being the plural "the"). So "Il Pagliacci" would be incorrect grammar.

As to whether the title should be "I Pagliaggi", this is addressed at the start of the article where it says "The title is sometimes incorrectly rendered I pagliacci (The Clowns)." Is it this that you disagree with? --David Edgar 10:37, 9 October 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Acutally, I think it IS "I pagliacci" - I have the vocal score itself published by Ricordi and that is the name of the opera on the binding & cover. Not to mention that makes better sense in the Italian language- Pagliacci is plural of clowns, thus it should be I (plural of the word the) clowns. There's even a part at the end of the opera when he says, "No! Pagliaccio non son!" using the singular of the word clown. I think most people mistakenly call it just Pagliacci but I can't imagine Ricordi publishers making that mistake for over a hundred years. Suepera 02:29, 30 August 2007 (UTC) Suepera[reply]

Unfortunately, Ricordi has made the mistake as well. However, Ricordi was not the original publisher of the score. The original and definitive version was published by Casa Sonzogno in 1892 with the title Pagliacci, and it is still published by them today. See [1]. Best Voceditenore 10:09, 30 August 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Revisited

Regarding this edit, which removed the notion of "incorrectness" in favour of "common usage": Well, of course it's incorrect to inject an article into a title when the creator of the title decided he didn't want it there. Common usage doesn't get to trump that. How about we start calling Dickens' Bleak House - "The Bleak House"? No, sorry, we don't get to do that. Same applies with Pagliacci. Many people write I Pagliacci, but they're every man jack of them incorrect. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 01:49, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The same goes for Messiah, often lumbered with an otiose definite article. I vote the word "incorrect" be reinstated as regards Pag. Tim riley (talk) 10:53, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You can remove it if you wish, due to the apparant consensus on this page, but I feel that it is a POV statement to call something that is common usage "incorrect". It just seems that we are pushing users towards a particular usage, when both are common. I think we should just clarify that this wasn't in the original score, but since that time many have referred to the opera with the article. We don't need to make judgmental calls about the usage of it, just note that the title isn't original. Them From Space 20:59, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Good. Glad we have no opposition to reverting. Jack of Oz, would you care to do the necessary, or shall I. Tim riley (talk) 21:03, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I've already done it. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:13, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I guess my concern with this action is the question who says this is incorrect? If it is Wikipedia that is saying it, then we are making a POV statement and also adding in original research. If it is reliable sources, they would need to be in large agreement, and preferably cited. I don't want us to be making the fallacy that the original intent of the composer is the only thing we should report as fact. We can cite the original score for the original name, but we cannot cite it for the correct name. Them From Space 21:14, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Of course we can. Imagine if you were watching a movie about the sinking of the Titanic, and when the ship first loomed into view, it had the words "The Titanic" emblazoned on its side. Wouldn't you feel just a slight urge to get in touch with the producers and tell them they had the name of the ship wrong? Well, Pagliacci is an even more clear cut case than that. At least with ships we do actually say the word "the" when referring to them, even if the word "the" is not normally part of the formal name. But here, we have an opera whose name means "Clowns". Not "The Clowns", just "Clowns". If it were an English-language opera by an English composer, its title would have been "Clowns", and anyone referring to it as "The Clowns" would be as wrong as they would be if referring to "Messiah" as "The Messiah". People in the opera world often refer colloquially to La bohème, Il trovatore, La traviata, Les Huguenots etc as simply Bohème, Trovatore, Traviata and Huguenots - but they know when it comes to some formal context, the full and correct title is the only acceptable one. Well, WP is a formal context, and the full and correct title of Pagliacci is - wait for it - Pagliacci. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:31, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

You just said the correct title was Pagliacci because it is... that's not very convincing. When many refer to it with a different name, you need more than the original score to verify the correctness (not just the originality) of the name. Today's correct usage and historical truth aren't always the same thing. Them From Space 21:44, 10 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

What is your definition of the word "correct"? Did Humphrey Bogart say the exact sequence of words "Play it again, Sam" in Casablanca, just because millions of people think he did and "quote" him as having said that? If an opera was called X by its creator, how could it possibly become "correct" to call it Y without his imprimatur? Did Leoncavallo ever sanction this? I have no problem with acknowledging that many, many people do in fact call it I Pagliacci (which should probably be spelt I pagliacci). But to leave it at that, as if it was a perfectly OK variant, is misleading. Fifty million Frenchmen can be wrong. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 04:16, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Correct here means the same as proper. To use either term to describe a name would be to judge based off of opinions, personal taste, and assumptions; not facts. The fact is that Pagliacci is the original name of the opera, but whether the original name should be preferred to another common name is a matter of opinion. Stating that one name is incorrect is taking a side on the issue. We are a neutral encyclopedia, so using language such as this is beyond our scope. Them From Space 06:01, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Well, I think that according the same value to the newer, arbitrarily changed title that has zero creative authority, as we give to the original title given by the composer, is very much taking sides with the latter-day miscreants. It's saying "Call it anything you like, we'll accept the new name as long as enough of you get it wrong the same way". There is a sort of strength in numbers, hence we have linguistic change and evolution, which only a madman would resist to the death. But this isn't about general linguistic change, it's about the specific title of an opera as provided by the composer. He called it X; he did not call it Y. Others can call it Y till the cows come home, but nothing can change its proper title except Leoncavallo, and he's dead. -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 06:39, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

I'm not much a fan of the composer=God mentality that many classical music fans and scholars have. A composer's original intention doesn't make that particular element of music "correct", which is a subjective statement, only historically accurate. This is an important distinction that needs to be made that I don't think you're seeing. Whether one usage is incorrect or against the composer's wishes is irrelevant in an encyclopedia that states facts and not assertions. The fact is that both names are is use by scholars and fans, the one being original and the other having arisen shortly after the opera's first publication. (And the name with the article is nearly as old as the name without, here are two contemporary references to the opera with the article, both dated 1893 [2] [3] ) Them From Space 06:58, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

That's hardly relevant to today. Any opera company that in this day and age presents something they call "I Pagliacci" could expect to receive a lot of feedback, criticism, and even abuse for being so operatically illiterate. (Not that I condone abuse.) No opera company or record company in the world would ever consider "common usage" carries enough weight to allow "I Pagliacci" to be presented or recorded, and so they all present or record "Pagliacci". -- Jack of Oz [your turn] 21:05, 16 May 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Vesti la giubba

Is the popular phrase "On with the motley" a loose translation of this aria's title? Daibhid C 17:39, 16 December 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Godfather

Wasn't this opera featured in one of the Godfather films? I could've swore I saw a clip of one of the films where someone was watching the opera while someone else was brutally killed backstage. Am I thinking of another film?PowderedToastMan 04:40, 25 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The only opera reference I can think of from any of the Godfathers I can think of is Cavalleria Rusticana in part 3.
NewYork1956 01:07, 27 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Notes Section

The inclusion of only one brief item (about the performance tradition of giving the final line to Canio instead of Tonio) did not seem to justify an entire Notes section. I incorporated the item into the Synopsis section (Act II) and deleted the Notes section header. Voceditenore 07:21, 23 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Support removal of trivia section

Viva-Verdi 19:46, 18 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Jay 01:23, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Kleinzach 01:24, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Voceditenore 14:02, 19 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Note: the entire trivia section has been re-added. See the Trivia section above for the most recent discussion. Voceditenore (talk) 08:02, 16 February 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"The Only One of Leoncavallo's operas that is still widely staged"?

This article claims Pagliacci is the only one of Leoncavallo's operas still widely staged. La Bohème is both the most famous of all Leoncavallo's works but it is also easily has to be the most widely staged. —Preceding unsigned comment added by BruceCMcD (talk • contribs) 16:51, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I think you're confusing this with Puccini's La bohème which is a highly popular and frequently performed opera. Leoncavallo's La bohème is very rarely peformed or even recorded. Best, Voceditenore (talk) 21:52, 27 April 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The Conductor Vincent La Selva gave a performance of the Leoncavallo LaBoheme back in the 1970's or 1980's. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.80.150 (talk) 18:35, 6 July 2012 (UTC)[reply]

ending

How could this play be written without Canio getting poisoned by stage poison intended to be stage-stage poison for Pagliaccio? .froth. (talk)

Role tables

I have removed the following redundant and inaccurate table from the Roles section.

Role	Role in Commedia	Voice type	Premiere Cast, June 15, 1893 (Producer: Gustave Hindrichs )
Canio, head of the troupe	Pagliaccio	tenor	Agostino Montegriffo
Nedda, Canio's wife, in love with Silvio	Colombina, Pagliaccio's wife, in love with Arlecchino	soprano	Selma Koet-Kronold
Tonio, the fool	Taddeo	baritone	Giuseppe Campanari
Beppe, actor	Arlecchino, Colombina's lover	tenor	Mangioni de Pasquali
Silvio, Nedda's lover		baritone	Perry Averill
Chorus of villagers

The Roles section is for the world premiere not every country premiere or performance. Double tables are only used for premieres of different versions of the opera, in which case this format is used. Add the cast info above as prose to a performance history section if this was a significant performance and please specify the theatre and why this particular performance was significant. Voceditenore (talk) 14:09, 24 July 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The never-ending story of popular culture

I was just having a look at the article Ride of the Valkyries, and noticed that all unreferenced items in the In popular culture section of that article have been removed after discussion on the talk-page. I suggest we do the same here.--Francesco Malipiero (talk) 21:49, 20 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

I agree; 'tis done. Viva-Verdi (talk) 00:30, 21 November 2010 (UTC)[reply]

You left one entry which seems entirely non-notable – it sports a very odd title ("Account creation of …"?) – and the quoted source no longer exists. I suggest to remove it. --Michael Bednarek (talk) 03:05, 11 April 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Far be it from me to revive this removed section, but it seems that the striking parallels between this and its allusion in the second book of Watchmen should by now have produced a mention in a reliable source of some merit. I'll check Watchmen and Philosophy, but I don't recall one there. Does anyone else have one? Scartol • Tok 00:11, 17 October 2012 (UTC)[reply]

Now User:Svnpenn felt it necessary to add this list again – without following the etiquette of WP:BRD. There's not a single usable source for any of the entries. Many consist of material so utterly non-notable that they don't have a single wiki link, and none add anything to the understanding of Leoncavallo's work. Those that have Wikipedia articles should be mentioned there, which surprisingly often they aren't. I suggest to remove the whole list. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 04:43, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I agree. There can be scope for significant cultural references for these kinds of works, i.e. cultural references which in themselves have been discussed in the literature. See, for example, both Cavalleria rusticana and this section of its talk page. Ditto William Tell Overture. But simply re-adding this unreferenced mass of trivia, most of which is so utterly trivial it is not even mentioned in the apposite article is completely inappropriate, sloppy, and unencyclopedic. If someone wants a a cultural references section, then they need to put in the time to do it properly, sticking to the most significant instances, writing integrated text, and referencing it meticulously. Voceditenore (talk) 05:50, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Totally support removal, and have "thanked" the most recent editor who reverted the entire section. In addition, I have posted a note on User:Svnpenn's Talk page warning him/her/them of the 3-revert rule and the very limited value of all that material. We now have 3 editors on record as being opposed to its inclusion. Viva-Verdi (talk) 18:22, 13 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I'm also willing to go on record as opposing the inclusion of pointless trivia here. These allusions, if they are discussed on Wikipedia at all, should be elsewhere. Ozob (talk) 01:34, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Actually, we now have five editors with our fearless leader, Voceditenore, along with us. Viva-Verdi (talk) 03:24, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

I feel 3RR needs to be better explained to Viva-Verdi. http://wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:3RR#The_three-revert_rule This says essentially that 4 or more reverts within 24 hours is BAD.

I agree to this, and if you will notice carefully I have made 2 reverts so far. Yes, they were within 24 hours of each other, however 2 is not 4. So for the time being, I have not crossed the "bright line". Back off. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Svnpenn (talk • contribs) 04:38, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Anything to say ad rem? What abot the "D" in WP:BRD? What about WP:Consensus and WP:LISTEN? -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:27, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

FWIW I regard the proposed addition as highly undesirable. Please stop adding it without further discussion. William Avery (talk) 07:10, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

Per Michael, instead of counting how many times you have "safely" reverted, Svnpenn, please use the talk page to discuss (the D in BRD) and justify why you think that disorganized mess of unreferenced trivia belongs in the article. Voceditenore (talk) 07:17, 14 August 2014 (UTC)[reply]

UK Premiere?

This article says that "Nellie Melba played Nedda in London in 1892," but later it says that "the UK premiere of Pagliacci took place at the Royal Opera House, Covent Garden in London on 19 May 1893." So my question is: It if premiered in the UK in 1893, how could Nellie Melba have performed in it in London a year earlier? 2604:2000:EFC0:2:7C16:4E2E:E4E5:E5E8 (talk) 01:14, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

I assumed that was a typo and made it consistent. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 05:16, 21 August 2016 (UTC)[reply]

Assignment of the final line

This has become a lengthy, largely unreferenced, and uninformative laundry list. I have removed to here all the entries which are unreferenced. Please do not restore until you can provide a published source which explicitly states that the final line was given to Tonio in that production.

Removed entries

The 2017 Opera Ithaca production directed by Zachary James
The 2017 Opera North production directed by Charles Edwards^[1]^{[failed verification]}
The 2015 Opera Panama production directed by Irena Sylya
The 2015 Royal Opera House, Covent Garden production directed by Damiano Michieletto
The 2016 Welsh National Opera production directed by Elijah Moshinsky
The 2015 Metropolitan Opera production directed by Sir David McVicar
The 2014 Teatro Petruzzelli production directed by Marco Bellocchio
The 2013 English-language production by Opera Theatre of Saint Louis
The 1982 film by Franco Zeffirelli

^ "Pagliacci (Clowns): The Story". Opera North. Retrieved 18 September 2017. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)

I am now going to check those entries which do have references to see if they actually verify the claim. Any which do not will also be removed to this talk page. Additionally, a list like this gives undue weight to a relatively minor aspect of the opera in my view. The article does not need a giant list of every single putative production which gives Tonio the final line, no matter how obscure the production or the opera company. But that's a question for another time. Voceditenore (talk) 06:14, 6 October 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[1] "Pagliacci (Clowns): The Story". Opera North. Retrieved 18 September 2017. {{cite web}}: Cite has empty unknown parameter: |dead-url= (help)

[1]