Talk:Pablo Casals/Archive 4

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Questions about above RFC close

Hi User:NE Ent, can I ask for clarification on above close please: (1) Is above an admin close? (2) Is there consensus for now adding the Spanish name in Catalonia articles which have been stable with the original Catalan name, as all other names, in Catalan? In ictu oculi (talk) 04:16, 25 October 2014 (UTC)

Pablo Casals????

Your name is Pau Casals, because Pau Casals is catalan. He would be outraged to see that, you can see him saying he was catalan: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AKlkO3Tt3Kw — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.12.101.187 (talk) 09:29, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

You can see what his real name on the foundation that he himself created and today manages his own family: http://www.paucasals.org/en/Introduccion/ — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.12.101.187 (talk) 09:42, 28 April 2016 (UTC)

Since he's "Pablo Casals" in almost all reference materials, and in at least the majority of the media cited for the article, the article is so titled. I've reverted some Catalan nationalist editing, which I see you didn't do. Tapered (talk) 03:38, 10 October 2016 (UTC)

PAU CASALS IS HIS REAL NAME

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pau_Casals No one in Spain neither Catalonia calls him Pablo. It is nearly an insult, if we listen to his speech about Catalonia, and the proudness he shows when he speaks of his ancient Catalan nation and policies. His name has never been Pablo. Pablo is in Spanish (Imperialistic Castilian) and Pau is in Catalan. See the Spanish wikipedia also calls him Pau and all the other wikipedias because that was his name. I'm putting the truth, don't revert me please!!! I'm Catalan too, and why is our culture always reverted? — Preceding unsigned comment added by Ethra2016 (talk • contribs) 03:27, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

The Spanish WP says "also known as Pablo Casals internationally", and shows what appears to be his signature as Pablo Casals in the referenced page. Pablo is by far more common in English-language sources. Dicklyon (talk) 03:36, 2 January 2017 (UTC)

I totally agree with Ethra2016. The page should be moved to Pau Casals and Pablo Casals be turned into a redirection. If you check the signature in the Spanish page it says Pau Casals. The fact that Pablo might be more common in the English-language sources doesn't seem to me a strong enough reason for the change honestly. Ferranbrosa (talk) 10:40, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Believe me, I'd love to see the page moved, but as has been explained here ad nauseam before, the applicable guideline on the English Wikipedia is WP:COMMONNAME. Generally speaking, pages on English Wikipedia have the titles that most English speakers expect them to have, and neither usage in other languages, nor the supposed preferences of deceased subjects, are of much account. What might help shift usage in English a little would be a native speaker uploading a sound file of how the name is correctly pronounced in Catalan. It's a long game. William Avery (talk) 12:52, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for the idea of inserting an audio. It happens I am a Catalan too, as Pau Casals (by the way, Pau also means Peace in Catalan). Please if you know how to do this I would be pleased if you told me how. During 40 years of francoist dictatorship (1939-1975) the use of our cultural language was forbidden, that's why his name was internationally known in his Castilian Spanish version of Pablo Casals, as the dictator was still alive and on duty in 1971 when Pau made his famous speech "I am a Catalan" at the United Nations. It seem to me English speaking countries (and English speakers in general) should once for all acknowledge the hard policies that were imposed amongst our nation, which included persecuting and banning the use of our language, as forbidding to edit any kind of books in Catalan. I think it is time now we turn the page in history and call things by their name. We still live Catalan repression from the Madrid centralized government we have in Spain. It is our culture and our language that are native to us, and some people don't seem to understant our don't care about the repression. The Spanish wiki (Catalan is not forbidden now) has respected the article with his original name Pau Casals. I don't see the reason why the English wiki should now play the role of the one who bans Catalan culture. ABSURD. FRANCO IS DEAD. Pau Casals was made famous during Francoist dictatorship, and since Catalan was TOTALLY persecuted and forbidden, his name was changed to Pablo, internationally as well. But AGAIN: FRANCO IS DEAD. Pablo Casals HAS TO redirect to Pau Casals, and FINALLY English speakers acknowledge the SIMPLE TRUTH. IT IS TIME NOW: 2017. PLEASE! Respect for our Catalan culture and language. Pau publicly was crying for recognition as well. RESPECT FOR ALL Ethra2016 (talk) 22:37, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

Further on, I make a cry for consensus in order to FINALLY name his article by his real name PAU CASALS, SINCE THE USE OF CATALAN LANGUAGE IS NOT FORBIDDEN ANYMORE SINCE 1975, AS IT WAS WHEN HE MADE THE U.N. FAMOUS SPEECH. ENGLISH SPEAKING WORLD: ACKNOWLEDGE AND RESPECT PLEASE. Ethra2016 (talk) 22:46, 14 February 2017 (UTC)

As William Avery points out above, the naming of articles on the English Wikipedia is governed by WP:COMMONNAME. Wikipedia doesn't take sides, it doesn't argue, it just reflects reliable and reputable sources. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 12:15, 15 February 2017 (UTC)

Lots of nationalism here. We go by 'Pablo', which is (by far) the standard usage in English. 185.53.100.2 (talk) 19:04, 15 April 2017 (UTC)

I think Pau is a known name in English-speaking countries (e.g. https://wiki.riteme.site/wiki/Pau_Gasol). Then applying the WP:COMMONNAME it could be named Pau Casals without problem. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 153.96.151.103 (talk) 14:06, 9 May 2017 (UTC)

For those editors who have recently arrived at this ongoing discussion, many versions of which have been archived over the years (that's what these great historials are for), I would just like to point out that the international use of Pablo as his first name goes back way before Franco came into power, with Pablo Casals performing at The Town Hall (New York City) in 1927 ("MUSIC; Pablo Casals Charms.", NYT) and 1928 ("MUSIC; Pabio Casals's Recital", NYT). However, several years before those, and many other concerts took place, The New York Times had announced Pablo Casals' wedding ("SOPRANO WEDS 'CELLIST.; Miss Susan Metcalfe Married to Pablo Casals by Justice Keogh".). The year? 1914. For those of you who are a bit hazy as to historical dates, 1914 was some 25 years before Franco's dictatorship led to the subsequent repression of Catalan, civil liberties and the whole gamut of barbarities it carried out.

Although I have yet to see any such argument, it would be far more "convincing" to suggest that, rather than Franco, it was Miguel Primo de Rivera's dictatorship (1923–1930) —which also repressed the use of Catalan and coinciding with Casals' New York performances—, that was responsible for prohibiting that pesky Pau in favour of Pablo. However, Pablo Casals was already an international figure before Primo de Rivera came to power. Shall we go back a little further? In 1908, he was billed to perform at the Salle Gaveau in Paris, with Guilhermina Suggia, as "M. et Mme. Pablo Casals" (Mercier, Anita: Guilhermina Suggia: Cellist, p. 21. Routledge. At Google Books). And so it goes... --Technopat (talk) 21:00, 14 September 2017 (UTC)

A shame to see so much nationalist editing: I have reverted these. The consensus on the talk page is to use the name most commonly used in English. This is Pablo, not Pau (which seems to be much less common). If Pau is the more common name in Catalan, then Catalan Wikipedia can use that. There are so many archives on this talk page that explain this decision in detail. Read these and understand Wikipedia policy before making these nationalist edits. 185.169.255.11 (talk) 14:11, 1 October 2017 (UTC)

Yes, but. I'm not conscious of any agenda in saying this, but whatever is the accepted Wikipedia name for him, (and if someone tells you what his name is, it's generally polite to assume he knows)the article itself normalises him in an almost entirely US context - even to the extent of authenticating a mention of a London appearance in the Brahms Double Concerto with Kreisler (just think of that) on the strength of an AD (heaven help us) in the New York Times, and climaxing his musical achievements with a White House appearance. The claim that he would not appear in any country which recognised the Franco Government in Spain seems doubtful - though the post-world-war II position with France was tricky, he recorded in London (the Elgar Concerto) after World War II at a time when the UK recognised Franco, though it is recorded that when there he made an attempt to reach members of the British Government to get them to reverse this - the White House concert might not have been a unique exception. (It turns out it wasn't - "Life" in 1958 splashed his appearance in a UN celebratory broadcast concert that year spread across various cities and continents - Casals participated from New York after a special journey). If anyone were ever daft enough to name a motorway after me, I'm not sure I would place it first among the desirably acknowledgeable memorials I would like to leave behind, but perhaps he did. Isn't it enough to have been the cellist he was?Delahays (talk) 16:43, 22 December 2017 (UTC)Delahays (talk) 16:01, 22 December 2017 (UTC)

His museum, foundation and name cited in any history book is 'Pau Casals', so it should be in the article. I've read the reasoning that 'Pablo' is whhat most English expect (even it is not his name); you can use a redirection from Pablo to Pau. This way English speakers learn a bit more about him, which is the purpose of the article. http://www.paucasals.org --Marcmiquel (talk) 16:27, 3 February 2018 (UTC)

Please read WP:RIGHTGREATWRONGS and related guidelines. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 01:33, 4 February 2018 (UTC)

So, this people that talk about "nationalist editing". You are being very offensive, and oppresive to the point it's outrageous I don't like nationalism but I have to stand up if my culture or language has been attacked. The catalan language has been a suppressed language for many years. People (my mother for example) couldn't register or inscribe their sons in catalan names, it was forbidden and you had to inscribe with the TRANSLATION of the name. It's not that we want the article tittle to be Pau because "Pau is the more name" as 185.169.255.11 suggests, what we are trying to tell you is that any catalan will be offended by this tittle. I don't know why it would be so bad to just redirect "pablo casals" to "Pau casals" instead of the current state, I've read the rules you posted here and I don't know why it couldn't be that way. SurprisingJack (talk) 09:22, 27 October 2018 (UTC)

Pierné incident

I'm wondering whether the incident involving Gabriel Pierné is noteworthy enough to include in this article. Casals was supposed to perform the Dvořák Cello Concerto under Pierné's baton. While planning the performance together, Pierné disparaged the work as "de la cochonnerie." Casals refused to perform. He was sued for breach of contract and forced to pay a heavy fine. Debussy was also involved in the incident. (I'm asking a similar question at the talk page for the article on Pierné.) Ishboyfay (talk) 16:40, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

Bigamy?

Both this and the article on Susan Metcalfe Casals claim they separated in 1928 but divorced in 1957.

However: "In 1955, Casals married as his second wife long-time associate Francesca Vidal de Capdevila, who died that same year."

Clarifications, anyone? Cheers! Shir-El too 15:18, 30 September 2023 (UTC)