Talk:Over-the-Rhine

Nick Clooney

I bumped the enter key while writing my edit summary for removing him from the list of people. It is well-known that the Clooneys hail from Maysville, Kentucky. I suppose it is possible he lived in OTR at some point although it doesn't seem particularly likely and isn't mentioned in his own WP article. Beeblebrox (talk) 19:38, 19 July 2021 (UTC)

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A Commons file used on this page or its Wikidata item has been nominated for deletion

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"German cultural district" and "Cincinnati's Rhineland"

Here's an explanation for my removal of false information. The lead of the article as I came upon it read: Over-the-Rhine, also known as "Cincinnati's Rhineland", and the "Rhineland of America", is a German cultural district of Cincinnati, Ohio." It then went into more depth about "Ohio Rhinelanders" and for some reason the Reds (who never played in Over-the-Rhine).

There are two problems with this:

1) Over-the-Rhine is not German, and it's not a cultural district. First and foremost, it is a residential neighborhood, which, according to this same article, was 54% black as of 2018. Over-the-Rhine has not been even majority German since the 50s and 60s (which I cited), and there are virtually zero remaining German cultural institutions in the neighborhood save some churches. And while there is a large concentration of cultural amenities in Over-the-Rhine, it is not a "cultural district," its a residential neighborhood that happens to have a lot of cultural amenities.

2) Over-the-Rhine is not colloquially known, in 2024, as "Cincinnati's Rhineland" or the "Rhineland of America." In fact, you're hard pressed to find this anywhere outside of the questionable citation. It is absolutely absurd to introduce this as the first bit of information about the current-day neighborhood when it is just flat out not called that. It is simply untrue.

And again, the exclusive emphasis in the rest of the lead on the historic "Ohio Rhinelanders" (again, questionable sourcing on this) to introduce a neighborhood which is majority black and has not been culturally German for nearly 70 years is ridiculous. I'm not a Wikipedia editor, so I'm sorry if I haven't gone about things correctly. But the information introduced in the previous version of this article is outright incorrect/irrelevant to understanding this neighborhood as it exists in 2024. Pulteb (talk) 02:57, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

I mean, yeah, anyone who has any firsthand expereince with OTR in revent memory is not going to tell you that most of the people they encountered there were German immigrants trying to preseve German culture. However, how we do things on WP is not at all based on what we personally experience, and whther an area is a "cultural district" or a "residential neghborhood" or both of those things is not up to us. Let's see some sources to light the way. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 08:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Thank you for your help. I'll admit the "cultural district" vs "residential neighborhood" thing is arguing semantics, but I wonder what is to be done about the original edit, which had no talk at all and very weak sources.

Is there a way I can bump this to a Wikipedia mod/admin to have reviewed more deeply? Clearly there is disagreement here. What happens in that case? Pulteb (talk) 14:10, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

You make points about 2024, but this article is about the entire history of the region, especially why it's named Over-the-Rhine; being a German cultural district in Cincinnati, capital of the Ohio Rhineland.

You claimed that the information false, but you haven't proven it's false that other than saying that the area today is 54% black as of 2018. That's like saying the Fredricksburg German Quarter or New Orleans French Quarter shouldn't be called German or French districts just because German or French people aren't the majority there anymore.

You say you're not a Wikipedia editor, and it's obvious in your actions by deleting entire portions of an article, and using weak logic to support the deletion. Aearthrise (talk) 09:53, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Okay, I don't think its weak logic at all, but even if you disagree with that, why do I have to "prove" any of this is false? You can go back to the edit adding all this information, which has no explanation beyond "Added information on settlement, history, additional names, citations". Why is the onus not on the first author to provide accurate and critical sources about this information, or justify why they felt it absolutely necessary to include in the article lead?

Did you look at the sources? I looked at the sources, which are 40-70 year old magazine articles or coffee table books, and when they do mention "Rhineland" they do so once, off-hand, with no reference to Over-the-Rhine. Even the article you linked about the "Ohio Rhineland" mentions that name once WHICH IS ONCE MORE THAN THE CITED SOURCE.

So there are no academic sources critically applying the terms "Cincinnati's Rhineland" or the "Rhineland of America" to Over-the-Rhine, even in a historic context, and there is certainly nothing applying the term "Ohio Rhineland" to the Miami-Erie Canal.

So here's my "proof" of falsehood: THERE'S NO PROOF OF TRUTH.

Bringing up Fredricksburg or New Orleans is irrelevant, and really proves my point. Neither of the articles about those neighborhoods apply a historic ethnic identity in the first sentence, as is done here. I have no problem exploring the history of the neighborhood, but it is INACCURATE to apply that identity as the first introduction to readers.

Anyways, I'll refrain from editing any further, because apparently you're the expert, and pinnacle of editorial logic and expertise! Thank you! Pulteb (talk) 14:06, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

For the record, to answer the above question: Is there a way I can bump this to a Wikipedia mod/admin to have reviewed more deeply? Wikipedia works by consensus, admins have no speicial authority in content disputes. There are various forms of dispute resolution available if it is felt that is needed here. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 18:32, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Pulteb's referring to this previous set of edits by 170.249.178.114 and 170.249.178.115 over 14–17 April 2024, which added information on the neighborhood's German heritage to the article's lede, etymology section, and history section.

While the changes to the body of the article are reasonable (and Pulteb didn't revert them), the lede's focus on the region's 19th century German heritage to the exclusion of its 20th century Appalachian and African American heritage seems undue. In particular, our MOS:LEADREL guideline states that "emphasis given to material should reflect its relative importance" and that "[s]ignificant information should not appear in the lead, apart from basic facts, if it is not covered in the remainder of the article", though "[this] should not be taken as a reason to exclude information from the lead, but rather to harmonize coverage in the lead with material in the body of the article."

Regarding sources, I've checked Pulteb's Changing Plans For America's Inner Cities reference, which states "Over-the-Rhine in the early twentieth century may be seen as a characteristically American slum, an old and declining area of mixed land uses and mixed peoples that formed part of a band of similar neighborhoods surrounding the central business district. ... [that] after 1940 attracted large numbers of both Appalachians and African Americans." The History of Over-the-Rhine article linked to by #History also matches this description of mixed heritage.

Given these findings, Pulteb's 00:50, 23 October 2024 edit to the lede seems justified. Provided no-one objects here, I'll restore it in a couple of days. (There's also a typo fix in the body of the article which I notice no-one's yet reapplied.)

@Pulteb, you've probably already figured this out, but deleting information from articles can upset people without a good writeup on the talk page (e.g. if someone's spent a bunch of time adding something, they're going to be unhappy if it's removed without showing cause). Here's how I try to manage that: edit to main page, post on talk page (drafted simultaneously then submitted together).

@Aearthrise, I haven't looked into whether the terms "Cincinnati's Rhineland" / "Rhineland of America" are backed up by reliable sources, as the references provided are more difficult for me to verify. Would you be able to continue discussing this here, then re-add the information to the body of the article if you're able to reach a consensus for that? Preimage (talk) 00:48, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

I can maybe drag out my copy of Cincinnati: The Queen City from the Cincinnati Historical Society if that might help. Just Step Sideways ^{from this world ..... today} 01:02, 26 October 2024 (UTC)

Just reapplied these changes: 16:57, 3 November 2024. Preimage (talk) 17:00, 3 November 2024 (UTC)