Talk:Out Here on My Own

Covers

Yes, people have covered this song. We list some, but not all, of those covers. Which ones do we list? Those which would be notable by themselves, independent of the original. It's spelled out at WP:COVERSONG. - SummerPhD^v2.0 22:14, 19 September 2020 (UTC)

• Fair enough. I did not know there were requirements for listing a cover on a songs page when I made the addition. From what I understand, the anecdote from her memoir is not relevant to the page. But how is a cover from a TV show that charted at #165 notable but a single release of the song with a music video by a major artist is not?--202.179.34.130 (talk) 07:06, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

Most songs are not notable. The general consensus is (and has long been) that notability for a song is implied by either charting or substantial coverage in independent reliable sources. For most songs, charting gives the assumption that it is notable. Most of the rest of the songs that are notable are either older than the charts or are by artists who have received so much coverage that every song has been discussed in excrutiating detail.

That said, the most recorded song in history, "Yesterday", has thousands of released covers. None of them are notable, so none are listed at "Yesterday".

With looser criteria, we'd have a whole lot of "Yesterday", "Star Spangled Banner" and "You've Lost That Loving Feeling" covers listed. No one would ever read those lists, of course. - SummerPhD^v2.0 18:24, 23 September 2020 (UTC)

I think it's being very pedantic to just include songs that have charted when Mariah's version was covered by media outlets everywhere such as and . When major entertainment outlet finds it newsworthy to report a cover, doesn't that count as being notable? -Greenemaze (talk) 06:01, 1 October 2020 (UTC)— Greenemaze (talk • contribs) has made few or no other edits outside this topic.

There are three basic choices:

1) Demonstrate the material meets the criteria. ("I wasn't speeding and therefore shouldn't get a ticket.")

2) Establish a consensus that, no matter what the criteria say and the hundreds of thousands of articles following those criteria, this example is a special case and we should ignore the guideline to include it. ("While I was driving faster than the speed limit, I was rushing a dying child to the hospital with a police escort so the courts agreed the ticket should be waived.")

3) Work to change the criteria, flooding every song article with long lists of covers that no one will ever read. ("I successfully convinced the legislature to repeal all speed limits. Drive as fast as you would like.")

Barring any of those three outcomes, if I neglected to remove it th next time someone added it, the material would stay there until someone else notices it and removes it, citing WP:COVERSONG. - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:06, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

On the criteria that of WP:Coversongs you’re referring to, it says

Only cover versions/renditions important enough to have gained attention in their own right should be added to song articles. When a song has been recorded or performed by more than one artist, a particular artist's rendition should be included in the song's article (never in a separate article), but only if at least one of the following applies:

the rendition is discussed by a reliable source, showing that it is noteworthy in its own right. Merely appearing in an album track listing, a discography, etc., is not sufficient to show that a cover version is noteworthy; cover songs with only these types of sources should not be added to song articles, either as prose or in a list.

Now, that first requirement “the rendition is discussed by a reliable source” is met by Mariah’s cover because multiple media outlets have written articles solely on Mariah’s cover. That is the reason why i cited a couple of references. Greenemaze (talk) 18:19, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Now let’s look at the others that you approve of, In the WP:NSONG page, it states

Song may be notable if it Has been ranked on national or significant music or sales charts. (Note again that this indicates only that a song may be notable, not that it is notable.)

During Glee’s glorious days, when they sang Out Here On My Own, it never received or gotten any entertainment news article. Sure it went to rank 150+ in billboard, but was that enough for it to be “notable”?

That’s the reason why your analogy on speeding ticket is not the same because speed is quantifiable, black or white. Being “notable” is very vague. Even the criteria for being notable is vague. Greenemaze (talk) 18:35, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

Please review my note on your talk page.

Yeah, the criteria are a bit vague. Life's like that. Iron-clad criteria here would be "Did it chart? No? We leave it out." Without inclusion criteria, however, List of people from New York City would be a list of a hundred million names.

Yes, a cover that ranks on a national chart is presumed notable. For a stand-alone article, I'd certainly want coverage in independent reliable sources sufficient to write a reasonably detailed article. Otherwise, the article would basically say little more than "this song exists".

For inclusion in an existing article, I generally accept charting as enough for a sentence. It's possible -- heck, it's likely -- that someone somewhere heard and given song on the radio or in someone's car and is looking the song up to find it. Someone looking for that Glee cover is not looking for (and would not be happy with) the 1980 Irene Cara version. A song that did not chart, OTOH, is less likely to fall into that category. It's not on the radio much (if at all) and if it's playing in someone's car you can bet they're talking about Mariah Carey from the moment you sit down.

Were the original version not clearly notable, Carey's version would not merit a stand-alone article.

As it is, the inclusion here merely states that it exists. Before I'd include it, I'd want something in the article to indicate it is in some way noteworthy, else it will no doubt breed the addition of a cover by B.J. Trucker and the Convoy, as a bonus track on the 1982 import version of their only album, Truckin'.

The link you included, IMO, gives that info. We just need to flesh it out a bit. The version itself isn't really notable (if it were, it'd certainly chart somewhere), but it's place in Carey's history is probably worth the mention. - SummerPhD^v2.0 20:32, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I appreciate what you’re saying, I guess my point with the Glee cover is that yes it charted, but from the WP:NSONG page, it clearly states that just because it charted, doesn’t necessarily follow that it is notable. There weren’t any news outlet that reported or wrote an article about their cover. All it had going for is that it charted (not very high though). Meanwhile, Mariah’s cover didn’t chart, but it was relevant enough to be newsworthy. I could put more links if that will help my case. Greenemaze (talk) 22:44, 1 October 2020 (UTC)

I also agree that Mariah's version deserved at least a mention in the list of covers. Two important music magazines wrote articles about it. Actually, I think it's time for Wikipedia users to re-evaluate this whole "notableness" criteria. What may not be "notable" for some users may be very interesting for others. And these strict rules, mainly in music articles, tend to push away readers and contributors. In my point of view, any information that can be verifiable in any trustworthy source (no matter if it is an Billboard article or a video that the artist himself uploaded to his official channel on YouTube) should be elegible to be inserted in a Wikipedia article. Times have changed since Wikipedia was created, and I think it would be nice making it more interesting to the new generation of readers. Guajoca (talk) 00:22, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I give up on this. It’s so odd to me that editors involved here in Out Here On My Own are so strict in listing covers. I checked Open Arms (song by Journey), and there’s a lot of covers there that are just included in their album (Boyz 2 Men, Celine Dion) didn’t chart anywhere, nor there were any news article but somehow they deem those covers deserving to be mentioned. Oh well it’s just Wikipedia... it’s not known for its reliability because of things like this. Editors have their own biases and prejudice and use vague criteria to support those biases. Greenemaze (talk) 01:43, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I've been reading the page and wanted to put my two cents in. I agree with both Guajoca and Greenemaze. In this instance, notability is established simply by press coverage. In alot of ways, notability can be subjective. I don't know who Angela Clemmons or Nikka Costa are, but I definitely know who Mariah Carey is. To the contrary, I'm sure there are plenty of people who have no idea who Mariah Carey is. Furthermore, there are a handful of examples and scenarios on Wikipedia where notability on song pages is seemingly established without the need for the song to have charted. For example, when we read many Wikipedia articles on American standard songs, oftentimes a notable artist performing a version of it warrants a mention. For example, Have Yourself a Merry Little Christmas. It's been covered countless times, but it's hard to argue that a version by Frank Sinatra, Bing Crosby, or Ella Fitzgerald isn't more notable than the countless other versions of the song. What establishes notability for standards that pre-date the practice of music charts? My Melancholy Baby for example, was written in 1912, but the first mention of a popular artist's version that actually charted is Bing Crosby's in 1938, and this is the only mention of this song charting. Charts in these times were arguably less notable than the eventual charts Billboard originated and were widely adopted into the industry in 1958. My point here is, where do we draw the line of when a song like this is "notable"? Was it not a notable or popular song for 26 years, even though other popular artists covered the song in that span, because it didn't "chart" until 1938? Is the song not notable after 1938 because it hasn't charted since? This just isn't a coherent method of establishing notability on a song page. I'm admittedly not aware if Wikipedia guidelines outline what establishes "notability" of popular or even classical songs that pre-date music charts, but using only music charts to establish a songs notability means countless of notable songs suddenly aren't notable, including basically every great American and classical masterpiece one can think of. Miss Show Business (talk) 02:39, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

If any of you would like to see Wikipedia's polices change, addressing them on a random article's talk page won't do it. Policy changes come from central discussions. The Village Pump is a good place to start.

Please note, though, that the suggested change of being in a reliable source would have my niece listed in People from New York City, "The Star-Spangled Banner", Mame and several other articles. She's a great kid, but is not in any way notable yet. Additionally, "Yesterday " would include a list of thousands of commercially released versions, plus thousands more on youtube and certainly hundreds of thousands more occurring in concerts and such.

Notability for individual songs is explained at WP:NSONG. Yes, most modern songs do achieve the presumption of notability by charting. (If the song doesn't have substantial coverage in sources, it generally does not merit and article. You can't have an article without content and you can't have content without sources.) It's kinda hard to imagine a song being released this year, being noteworthy, but not charting. (Though it's possible.)

Wikipedia does, however recognize that there are notable songs that did not (in many cases, could not) chart. As I said, charting merely establishes the presumption of notability. The bottom line for notability, as outlined at WP:NSONG is that the song -- not the artist, album, songwriter or anything else -- be the subject of substantial coverage in multiple independent reliable sources. Yes, a book about, say, Tom Petty might mention every song he ever recorded. Most of those songs are not notable. Petty's fans might be interested, and they can read the book. General readers, however, will not be interested. We need sources about the song with substantial coverage.

Wikipedia does not have articles about everything that exists. Notability is the dividing line. Wikipedia articles are not indiscriminate collections of information. Lists in articles must have objective criteria for inclusion. We want a list of notable people from New York City and notable covers of song, not people from New York City that someone felt like adding or covers of a song that some Wikipedia editor liked. - SummerPhD^v2.0 03:29, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

Mate, the criteria “being discussed in a reliable source” is not from me. It’s from the WP:COVERSONGS that you referred to as guidelines. Greenemaze (talk) 04:20, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

I wish we could do screenshots here so that I could screenshot point by point what it says in WP:COVERSONGS and WP:NSONGS. But again, from what I can see here, no matter the proof, as long as there’s a small chance it can be biased towards what the Editors want, there’s no way of changing it. Greenemaze (talk) 04:25, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

You seem to be misunderstanding me. I am quite aware that substantial coverage in reliable sources is sufficient. One of the other commenters above seemed to think the criteria required charting.

(BTW: No need to post a screenshot. Quoting the text is sufficient. If the wording is ever edited in the guideline, the version you quoted would still be in the page history.) - SummerPhD^v2.0 16:46, 3 October 2020 (UTC)

References