Talk:Ottoman naval expeditions in the Indian Ocean

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This article was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment, between 23 August 2021 and 18 December 2021. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Metrboom13.

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An added section

The following section has been added by ambigious editor 119.159.205.255:

==4.Indian Ocean campaign (1553) by Kurtoğlu Hızır Reis==

In 1565, Alauddin al-Kahar of Aceh declared allegiance to the Ottoman Empire in a letter that he sent and also requested for assistance to the Ottoman Sultan Suleiman the Magnificent (which was received by the Grand Vizier Sokollu Mehmet Pasha due to the absence of the Sultan's preoccupation during the Battle of Szigetvár, his final military campaign) for defending his land from Portuguese aggression. Due to Suleiman's death in 1566, the Ottoman naval expedition to Sumatra was sent by his son, Selim II, who appointed Kurtoğlu Hızır Reis.

Kurtoğlu Hızır Reis was the Admiral-in-Chief of the Ottoman Indian Ocean Fleet based in Suez, with other homeports in Aden and Basra. In 1568 he set sail with a force of 22 Xebecs carrying soldiers, military equipment and other supplies, and visited Aden, Djibouti, Muscat, Hormuz, the Mughal Empire (Debal, Surat, Janjira]]), Lanka (Sri Lanka) and then arrived at Aceh in 1569, an event which effectively marked the easternmost territorial expansion of the Ottoman Empire, was well noted by his Portuguese rival Fernão Mendes Pinto. Simultaneously, the Ottoman Empire informed Portugal that Aceh was from that time on an Ottoman territory and any attack against Aceh would be perceived as an attack against the Ottoman Empire, and the Portuguese fleet stopped its activities in the areas surrounding Aceh."

Although quite well written, there are some factual errors and condradictions with the article Ottoman expedition to Aceh. So I cleared it. But I'll try to reach the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:20, 21 January 2011 (UTC)[reply]

sure :)

?

We can find the term Indian Ocean campaigns in google books we can find 21 results ("Indian Ocean campaigns" -Llc). But only 1 result (Ottoman "Indian Ocean campaigns" -Llc) of them is this Indean Ocean campaigns.

Now let's search with single "campaign" not plural "campaigns". We can find 103 results ("Indian Ocean campaign" -Llc). When we added the term "Ottoman", we can find only 1 result (Ottoman "Indian Ocean campaign" -Llc).... this is related with the Royal Navy's Indean Ocean campaign.

I think that we have to seek for appropriate name for this article and make disambiguation page.

According to sources, at least, those are called Indean Ocean campaigns:

Suffren's Indian Ocean campaigns
Royal Navy's Indian Ocean campaigns
U-Boats'Indian Ocean campaigns (WWII)
Indian Ocean raid (1942) + Indian Ocean raid (1942) etc of the Imperial Japanese Navy (WWII)

Takabeg (talk) 03:57, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Maybe the word expedition is more suitable. Takabeg (talk) 04:04, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Ottoman naval expeditions to the Indian Ocean, Ottoman naval expeditions in the Indian Ocean..... olabilir. Takabeg (talk) 04:09, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The original phrase in Turkish is Turkish: Hint seferleri. Direct translation is Indian campaigns. But this title referes to many other events in English. That's why I chose the title Indian Ocean campaigns. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 06:17, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Osmanlı "Hint seferleri" -Llc 11 results
Osmanlı "Hint Deniz seferleri" -Llc 2 results

If here were Turkish Wikipedia, Hint seferleri is common name. But here is English Wikipedia. We have to chose English name among English sources. Takabeg (talk) 06:37, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

The failure of Ottoman naval expeditions against the Portuguese in the Indian Ocean^[1]
the failure of the Ottoman naval expeditions to the Indian Ocean^[2]

The failure of Ottoman naval expeditions against the Portuguese in the Indian Ocean...^[3]

Takabeg (talk) 11:26, 5 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Sources

^ Aziz Ahmad, Studies in Islamic Culture in the Indian Environment, Clarendon Press, 1964, p. 51.
^ Thomas D. Goodrich, The Ottoman Turks and the New World: A Study of Tarih-i Hind-i garbi and sixteenth-century Ottoman Americana, O. Harrassowitz, 1990, ISBN 9783447029902, p. 66.
^ International Commission for a History of the Scientific and Cultural Development of Mankind, Cuadernos de historia mundial, Éditions de la Baconnière, 1963, p. 790.

Calicut ???

According to an edit, The main efforts of the Ottoman forces was intended to drive the Portugese out of Calicut. Is this claim sourced ? This name Calicut (Kozhikode) doesn't appear on my sources and watching the map Diu and Kozhikode appear to be separated more than 1000 km. I find this claim very questionable. I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 11:23, 16 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

No reply from the editor. I cleared the image file about Calicut. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 15:52, 27 September 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Murat Reis the Elder

In the third expeditioni the name Murat Reis the Elder has been changed to Murad Beg. The editor Phso2 insists using the name Murat Beg. In Phso2's words " there was no lack of people named Murad" (whatever that may mean) . Well the name Murat Reis the Elder is a well known name and quite sourced in WP whereas there is no Murad Beg in WP. If Phso thinks Murad Beg is a better name for Murat Reis the Elder, than the title of the said article should be changed (of course with adequate sources) before warring in this article. I'll call the editor. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 19:34, 9 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The source says : "Murad Beg, a protege of Daud Pasha and veteran of the siege of Aden who was at the time serving as administrator of the port of Katif". This definition doesn't match the famed corsair's one. There are plenty of persons named Murad in history, so it is perilous to make gratuitous identifications with no basis.This source from Murat Reis the Elder problematic article doesn't mention any expedition to Arabia either, by the way.--Phso2 (talk) 19:52, 9 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Now everything is clear. Murad Beg and Murat Reis the Elder refer to the same person. For me there is no difference between the two except that the title beg means "lord" and title reis means "captain". Thus reis seems to be more appropriate in this content. Moreover there is an article of Murat Reis the Elder and there is no article to Murat Beg. So I am going to restore the name to its former self. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 08:58, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

You don't provide any reasons nor sources to back your personal conclusion that these are the same person. If this Murad Beg was a famous corsair, the source wouldn't have described him as the "administrator of the port of Katif" ; by the way it is difficult to explain that Murad Reis, supposed to be born in 1534 (according to one source) and still a youth in 1565 (according to another one), could have been entrusted with such a mission in 1553. I will ask for someone else's advice.--Phso2 (talk) 13:43, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The cited source (Casale) just calls him "Murad Beg, a protege of Daud Pasha and a veteran of the siege of Aden who was at the time serving as administrator of the port of Katif." I don't see any evidence that this is the same person as Murat Reis the Elder. Chamboz (talk) 16:32, 10 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

@Nedim Ardoğa:?--Phso2 (talk) 10:50, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

Well I am not an expert on the 16th century Ottoman people. I only rely on the sources. All sources in Turkish give the name as Murat Reis. The following source of the Turkish naval forces is in English. It too gives the name as Murat Reis with the identical life story of Murat Reis the Elder. [1] So I insist on the name of Murat Reis. Nedim Ardoğa (talk) 12:25, 11 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

The anonymous-written web page of the Turkish Navy can't be counted as a reliable source ; your evasive statement about "all Turkish sources" is wrong, Sicill-i Osmani eg has two separate entries, one for the Murad in persic Gulf and for the Algerian privateer. Since the (reliable) source of the § does not make this identification, there is no reason to make it yourself, even if some unreliable sources do.--Phso2 (talk) 10:07, 12 April 2017 (UTC)[reply]

[1] Aziz Ahmad, Studies in Islamic Culture in the Indian Environment, Clarendon Press, 1964, p. 51.

[2] Thomas D. Goodrich, The Ottoman Turks and the New World: A Study of Tarih-i Hind-i garbi and sixteenth-century Ottoman Americana, O. Harrassowitz, 1990, ISBN 9783447029902, p. 66.

[3] International Commission for a History of the Scientific and Cultural Development of Mankind, Cuadernos de historia mundial, Éditions de la Baconnière, 1963, p. 790.

[1]

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[3]